Apologies ! Had I knew you were that sensitive about my 'loose talk' I wouldn't have commented like that ! But I ain't gonna kiss you if that what it takes to make up for it !
I thought you took offense & so I apologized otherwise I don't see any reason to get your nickers in a twist over.
We don't need to make up or become friends.
Thats probably the biggest pile of...! Nevermind *Ahhh..phir ronna shuru ho jai ga*
*Prim & Proper Mode On*
Where, pray tell me, did I allude to an individual, lets call him 'A', being only identified in religious overtones & that all of it should come at the expense of his cultural & linguistic identities ? Pray tell me, where did I mention that we should claim someone else's heritage & disregard our own ?
It would be a natural outcome of focusing on only one element of identity. A person will automatically stop caring about his racial origins & culture if that aspect of identity is no longer cherished. The original Islamic caliphate never tried to eradicate an individual's unique heritage, it simply used Islam as an overlay to create a religious bond that co-exists with other aspects or race, culture, etc.
Did God write the first known literary piece on Punjabi Prose, or the one on Kurdish Poetry ? Surely he was the author - nay the ghost writer, behind Firdowsei's Shahnameh ! No..then where did all of these things come from ? Answer - We made them ! We wrote them ! Punjabi wasn't inspired by God & neither was Hebrew, German or Surinamese. They are modes of communication that were born out of centuries of 'human interactions' ! And because anything 'artificial' is human, I see no reason why not to label it as such. Yes...we created the Punjabi Language & I don't shy away from that or would be apologetic for that ! And just as one feels a sense of affinity towards something you create whether it be a doodle that looks to you like a work of art or a piece Mississippi Mud Pie that literally tastes like mud, I feel a sense of affinity towards my language (and it doesn't taste like mud...Punjabi is beautiful).
Dude, languages evolve over time. In fact they are under a constant state of development, including the one we are speaking now. What you are saying is similar to me saying that God doesn't create humans seeing as they develop in a woman's womb following a specific set of instructions. In that sense, it doesn't seem that God is too involved in the development of a human. There are very few created languages. In any case, the only reason I told you that God considers languages His own creation & a sign from Him is because He himself says so in the Quran. Denying that is pointless. Speaking of the evolution of language, it is widely believed that they all originate from a single source. One basic language broke up in to different groups like Semitic or Indo-European. I do not desire a Pakistan in which every province has its own sense of linguistic nationalism. However, most if not all the languages of Pakistan share common root languages like Sanskrit & Avestan. That could be turned in to a considerable binding factor even for those that are proud of their modern day languages. You ignore race & heritage & choose to focus on language alone. I assure you that your race or bloodline isn't artificial.
And while we're at it, even though I'm not a religious man, I feel compelled to point out that there are people at Raiwand's Annual Ijtima *Your textbook Pan-Islamic Molvis* who deliver whole sermons in Punjabi. That we by & large don't prance up & down the streets dressed up like Arabs or greeting all & sundry by uttering 'Ahlan Wasahlan' !
I am not extremely religious either, but I do pray. I guess most people here including children pray & abide by certain basics because stuff like prayer is integrated in to people's lifestyles here.
The language of the sermon would naturally be one which the locals can understand. Personally, I don't care much about mullahs or molvis. Although, there is no doubt that some scholars are extremely educated.
When those some people talk about owning up to the triumphs of Muslims whether it be the Kingdom of Andalusia or whether it be on the plains of Qadsiya do so simply because they feel a bond with them, a bond that transcends race, religion & culture. It doesn't make us Arabs because we don't see Tariq bin Zayad or Khalid bin Waleed as Arab Generals but as Muslims Generals ! Does that imply that they were all wearing 'shalwar kameezes' with polished 'peshawari chappals' & singing the National Anthem all the while looking up to the Pakistani Flag ? No...& only a fool would connect dots as such ! All it means is that whether they were Arabs, Iranians, Germans, Maoris, its a non-issue for us ! Its their exploits as Muslims & in the name Islam that matter.
If a person is proud of another Muslims accomplishment, it is perfectly acceptable as long as that individual doesn't start believing that that Muslim's accomplishment is really his own. For example; there is no problem with you being proud of ancient Arab Muslims conquering Spain. However, most Pakistani pan-Islamists believe that this accomplishment of someone else's is their own & that's how they end up claiming someone else's heritage.
And besides where does one draw the line while we're at it ? We can claim 'Khalid bin Waleed' as Our Hero but not Sher Shah Suri ? Why...? Did Ibn Waleed have a matching pair of horns to him that Sher didn't ? And evens still why claim Ibn Waleed as one of your own ? Why not just stick to the Prophet (PBUH) & disregard all the rest ? Umar bin Khattab was an Arab after all...he sure as hell didn't speak Pashto or Sindhi just like 'Omar Mukhtar the Libyan Freedom Fighter' ! Why not exclude him from the list as well ? Heck why stick to the Prophet (PBUH) when we know for a fact that he wasn't from Lahore but rather from Mecca & to add insult to injury we ended up embracing his faith...an Arab faith ! Good Lord...how shameless could we be ?
You see..there is no end to that ! There is no cut-off...! If we can say that a Muslim became God's Last Prophet & spread his message & it was his companions, Muslims again, who spread the message then we sure as hell can say that in Haroon Al Rasheed we found a Good Muslim King & we're proud of him or that Omar Mukhtar was a Muslim who fought for the freedom of his people - the Muslims.
The Prophet is a messenger to all mankind, & Islam is a religion for all mankind. That is exactly what the Quran & the Prophet claim. Any Prophet you follow is your own Prophet because of your belief in his message. The Prophet's companions are dear to us simply because they were directly involved in his life, & played a significant role for Islam. That is exactly why the Prophet's language or race is irrelevant, & people are free to abide by any religion they wish. However, after the 4 rightly guided Caliphs, the Caliphate had turned in to a dynastic system which in some ways resembled an empire. The history of lets say the Ottoman caliphate is part of the history of your religion, but the glory & accomplishments of the Ottoman empire aren't literally your own accomplishments. Similarly, the Persian doctor Avicenna should be a symbol of pride for Persians. Another member on another thread told me how Avicenna considered himself as a Persian Muslim. Clearly, Persians have more claim to him than we do.
This doesn't...doesn't...doesn't...okay one for the road - DOESN'T imply that we can't see that Haroon Al Rasheed was an Arab, that Mukhtar was a Libyan Bedouin or that Abu Bakr bin Sideeq was an Arab....all it means is that those people could be Sudanese for all we care - they were Muslims & they were good...hence why their deeds are dear to us.
One again, most pan-Islamists do not think like that at all. They claim the accomplishments of foreign Muslims as truly being their own, & that is exactly where the problem lies. An individual could be proud of a Christian's achievements, I don't see anything wrong with that at all. I have personally seen Pakistanis claim the caliphates advancements as their own in front of Arab & other Muslims, & I am glad that the response they received put them in their place.
Furthermore, this doesn't....doooooooeeesn't mean that we stop being Punjabis or Pashtuns or Baloch or any of our existing ethnicities ! Or that suddenly because I respect, admire & identify strongly with Omar Mukhtar...my mother tongue automatically changes to Berber or Arabic or that I'd want it to ! Thats a non issue...it didn't arise...we're not even thinking along those line !
Where did I say that you would stop being a Balochi, Punjabi, or a Kashmiri if you admire or respect a foreign Muslim? Have you run out of ideas because this paragraph was honestly worthless? The point is simple, if people adopt "being a Muslim" as their only identity, the importance of race, culture, & language would as time goes by diminish in their eyes. That would eventually in the worst case or the most extreme scenario result in the complete elimination of that people from a racial, cultural, or linguistic point of view.
It was for this reason that I suggested that nationalism or a society's identity should revolve around race, culture, language, & religion. You may include nationality in that list as well, I can't believe I had forgotten about that. By basing an identity upon these elements, people will happily continue cherishing their religious heritage or unity along with their culture, race, nationality, etc.
I wasn't even arguing along the lines for that is a non-issue ! We don't stop being Punjabis or Pashtuns or anything of the sort but the Aryan babble ain't gonna, for one, trickle down to the common man & for another, its still empirically unsubstantiated.
Indo-European tribes settle in the region now called Pakistan. That is exactly what explains the prevalence of Indo-European languages & genetic markers that even signify distant relations to some populations in eastern Europe. That does not make us Europeans though, & there is no doubt that most of us are mixed with a variety of other people that settled on this region permanently. However, your previous claims of Kashmiris having a possibility of descending from the lost tribes of Israel are completely devoid any proof whatsoever.
Oh come on that was just mean !
Looks like the rod won't do it...what you need is a plunger !
Use that plunger on yourself, & I repeat; share your dumb sexual fetishes & your odd sexual experiments on yourself with someone else.
So what 'other forms of nationalism' do I prescribe to ? We're only left with the 'ethno-linguistic' kind & that is a recipe for disaster ! For Nationalism inherently entails that a nation can only be formed if you exalt one aspect of it to such a position of reverence that people are willing to let go of their differences keeping that in mind, how do you propose we form a Pashtun Nation, a Punjabi Nation, a Sindhi Nation & still avoid the feuds, the inter-ethnic rivalries that would rip the country apart ? The answer that Pakistan came up with & I agree with is - You give them an overarching identity that lets them be Pashtuns & Punjabis but gives them something greater to find unity in - Islam ! We are One nation because despite the multitude of languages or blood lines that we may speak & have respectively - We're all Muslims ! How does that do away with our ethnic or linguistic identities ? Whence has a Punjabi stopped speaking the language or a Pashtun forgotten how Pashto sounded like ! So..those other forms of nationalism are a non-issue for us & a recipe for disaster because what is stopping a Lar Pashtun from saying 'Hey...what about the Bar Pashtun - Speaks the same language, has the same culture & even looks similar - Why shouldn't we be One Country instead ?' Or a Baloch from saying - 'Irani Sistan Balochistan has the same Baloch as we do...lets ditch Pakistan & lets go for that' ! Or a Punjabi to say - Yeah whatever happened in '47 sucked but we speak the same language, have the same culture...lets go for an Independent United Punjab ! We had a gift from God in the Urdu language - a more or less non-partisan lingua franca of Pakistan & we fought for our Independence under the banner of Islam transcending both Ethnicity & Linguistics & later Provincialism ! Why the hell do you want to make it more complicated when we have no need to 'reinvent' our identity ! Our failure lies in Governance not in Ideology.
Nationalism is the exaltation of any one attribute of a people, whether it be race, color, language, culture of a common past, & to place it at such a high pedestal that it lets them transcend their infighting & strive for the 'Us' instead of the 'I'. And it does deal in parallels & rivalries for you can only measure up 'who you are' with reference to what 'the other' is or isn't ! An enemy or rather 'the Other' is always needed ! Do grab a copy of the Clash of Civilizations & explore the author's arguments on how throughout history man has sought 'the other' to define himself. Thats where patriotism differs.
And there comes the other side *or rather the previous* of the argument ! History or rather Science tells us that a couple of thousand years ago the people who used to inhabit these lands were neither Pashtuns nor Punjabis, they were something else. Our present day cultures & languages evolved from that into what they are. Heck even the human race itself evolved from the Neanderthal & later the Homo Erectus to what we find ourselves in today ! Even if one doesn't buy into that then one cannot be intellectually challenged enough to also discount that Human Life as we know it progressed from One Origin & it multiplied ! With the passage of time whole civilizations were born & with them their unique languages & cultures who were baked in the fiery pits of 'time'. There is nothing 'immaculate or divine' about them that one cannot ditch them for something else ! And yet there is every reason to feel nice about them, about knowing that your people have inhabited these lands for years & will for years. They have evolved with the passage of time as have their modes of communication & expression. This affinity or even pride is not 'Ethno-Linguistic Nationalism' for we recognize that all of this is 'artificial & we take pride in expressing that' & is in transition to something else. We don't take excessive pride in it & assert that such & such land belongs to the Pashtuns & the Pashtuns alone & that only their posterity may benefit from whatever boons that earth provides us. Or that Non-Punjabis should pack up & leave Punjab for their ancestral homelands or assimilate by learning Punjabi & not have the right to caste vote in Provincial Elections...the Kashmiris can do it from Muzafrabad or any number of polling stations located all over AJK ! Thats 'ethno-linguistic' nationalism - Humm jaisee koi nahin....yeh zameen hamarii hai...yeh shanakhat hamariii hai...either conform or foOk off ! Try listening to the rhetoric of either Jeay Sindh, Pukhtoonkhwa Mili Awami Party or the Baloch Nationalist & then tell what 'ethno-linguistic nationalism' is or isn't.
Patriotism is love for one's land, the people who inhabit that land & who they are !
You've got to be kidding me ! Pakistanis not taking pride in their language ? Have you ever stepped outside the 'Elite' ! Have you seen how much pride does a Sereiki speaker takes in the language & how much of a joy is it to listen to that language ? Do you know that almost all Pashtun wherever they lie in the social strata make it a point to teach their children Pashto ! I can't recall a single Punjabi Pashtun that I met in real life who didn't know their language albeit in varying degrees.
And besides if languages are intrinsically linked to people at what point in time does a person's inherent right to choose or refuse a language kick in ? Why this compulsion ? If a Pashtun born today can be conscious of the fact that his ancestors, perhaps a 1000 years ago, spoke Turkish, some other dialect of Pashto or a different language altogether then why can he not make this conscious decision to teach his posterity *say* Sereiki as many in Mianwali have ?
You seem to be repeating points with a different wording, not all of them, but some of them. There were some good points in the above quote. As an individual you have the right to adopt any language that you see fit for yourself. That is your own decision, & one that is similar to your choosing a religion for yourself. However, the society that you reside in should ideally provide you with an environment that results in a degree of pride. All people need to be proud, but excessive pride should be avoided. It seems that we have a different definition of what pride in one's language signifies. Children learn any language their parents speak around them. So a Pasthun might be speaking Pastho with family, but he or she will probably speak in Urdu with let's say a Sindhi. That does not signify pride in one's language, it is more or less a natural habit to teach your children your own language. Pride in language should be demonstrated by other means. Those means include; developing that language & expanding it's vocabulary. By enriching it with scientific vocabulary, by writing books & poetry that result in the formation of new words, & by promoting it in different academic fields as a valuable platform for research. Pakistani provincial languages are unfortunately underdeveloped; most of them hold no real value besides the fact that they are a particular ethnic group's language. In fact, I read an article once claiming that some Pakistani languages face extinction & the government didn't really care too much about that. You might argue, it is the government's job to promote languages, & a linguistic institute's job to develop it. However, normal people have a role to play in the development of let's say their national language as well. Nationalism does not require giving race, culture, or language the status of divinity. Furthermore; I do not require an explanation on how language & culture evolved seeing as I myself explained a lot of it to you earlier. By the way, just because a person is nationalistic, it does not mean we can't accommodate foreigners on our land provided they don't cause trouble for us. Arabs are nationalistic & loads of foreigners from all over the world live in Arabia. They aren't annoyed by that unless someone causes trouble. There were times when African refugees caused a lot of problems, most of them turned out to be criminals. They were involved different kinds of theft including mobiles & the Iqama. The police f()cked them up though.
I have always claimed that Pakistan's nationalism should focus around the combined heritage of the IVC, Vedic & Iranic people, languages, shared culture, & religion. Please include nationality in to the mixture, I had completely forgotten about that earlier. The modern nation state's attempt at uniting under a geographical entity is a good one as well. A combination of all these combined would be amazing for Pakistan, & you can continue to interact with & share a bond with your Muslim "brothers & sisters" too. None of this will lead to any harm, all educated Pakistanis know that most ethnic groups in the country are already somewhat related. They have lived with each other for thousands of years, they have intermarried for centuries, it is foolish to assume they have nothing in common except religion. Besides if nationalism is so flawed as a concept, why would Islamic nationalism alone be any better? It may also lead to a bunch of people placing themselves above others as well. If Islamic nationalism can lead to the equality & betterment of all then so can the inclusion of other forms of nationalism. Muslims may end up oppressing religious minorities, & that oppression exists even today. In that sense, all forms of nationalism are flawed in extreme form, but we do not intend to become nationalistic to the extent that we ruin the lives of others. On the contrary, the aim of nationalism of any kind including the religious one is the survival & prosperity of its own people. That does not imply religion should not continue to be a binding factor for the populace, all that's needed is the inclusion of some other factors too. The nation state's geographical boundaries also helps ethnicities struggling for the common good of their country to avoid thinking about their ethnic brothers from across the border. Religious in itself is insufficient, & does not stop any desires among men from attempting to reunite the same ethnicity from across the border. The likeliness of such an outcome would vary depending on many different factors.
Those theories exist for one purpose or the other & yet none of them signal inferiority complex in the least ! Its just an 'origin myth' nothing more...do you honestly think that Pashtuns or Kashmiris want to pack up & leave for Israel or that they'd give a wooden nickle about being of semetic descent ? No...we don't & I being a Pakistani & an ethnic Kashmiri know & have talked to both Pashtuns & Kashmiris in that respect - Does it even have the remotest of significance ? No it doesn't except the fact that its used to explain away the 'theory of our possible origin'. Thats it...nothing more to it ! I bet not a single Pashtun feels a surge of pride in it or a sense of an inferiority complex thinking about 'Hey...not related to the Prophet...jeez that sucks'.
And Nationalism in that manner of speaking is indeed Fascistic hence why I used the term 'Islamo-Fascism' ! Humm jaisee koi nahin...the rest are just bidding their time till kingdom come.
The theory of the lost tribes is said to have initially become popular for the sake of claiming a connection with the Prophets. Just because you don't mind if it turns out to be false doesn't mean that others won't. You should feel lucky that you haven't met Pakistanis that would do anything to be related to Prophets. Unfortunately, I haven't been that lucky.
Neither had Mosa, BlackEagle or a whole bunch of other Arabs on this forum an iota's worth of contribution to the Golden Age of Islam. Why should they then have any claim to it ? Because of blood...are you kidding me ? What does blood hold to exalt it to such a level ? There is a reason why Iqbal lamented throughout the Jawad-e-Shikwa the dilapidated state of Muslims :
Thee to woh tumharii aabaai hii par tum kiya ho ? Haath par haath dharii muntazir-e-furda ho ?
Eng : Yes they (the Muslims who made the Golde Age Possible) were your ancestors but what are you ? Sitting idly doing nothing to replicate any of that !
Blood signifies a common relation among people, if you don't feel it's of any importance then there is nothing I can say to change your mind. If blood right does not allow you to feel proud of people's accomplishments, then what on Earth possibly could? Even family members are proud of each other's accomplishments because of blood. So if a Mexican converts to Islam, does that make the Muslims of the golden age his ancestors? I am sure Allama Iqbal was only speaking in the spiritual sense, & not a literal one.
You tell me which is better ? Blood or Action ? Sentience demands that we give up this bestial association of 'blood' in favor of the much more relevant - What the person stood for ? And you're damn right that there are Pakistanis who'd take pride in the exploits of Muslims from the Golden Age & they are justified for that is the ideal of what we could be that we should aspire to ! A Pakistani soldier freezing his buttt off in Siachen has more in common with Khalid Bin Waleed than an Arab Sheikh living off petro-dollars ever can ! Similarly an honest Arab activist has more claim to Muhammad Ali Jinnah than Zardari ever can. Its time to blur these blood lines & put to bed these created differences.
I already answered a portion of this post above. No regular soldier is comparable to Khalid ibn al-Walid. Comparing him to Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Scipio Africanus, or Julius Caesar would be more worthy of his status. Any activist could be comparable to anyone, their religion means nothing in this case. However, Muhammad Ali Jinnah is more respectable than some other activist unless he is able to do something of a caliber equivalent to Pakistan's founding father.
And sticking out for their own is exactly what it means to have an all encompassing definition of the 'own' ! Lets give the Humanistic State that the Prophet tried to create in Medina a chance once more & let us start at home first with Muslims. We've already achieved that here in Pakistan to a certain extent where by & large Pashtun, Punjabis & Kashmiris, though deeply in love with where they come from & what languages they speak, are willing to go the extra-mile for each other inspite of the differences in languages & cultures. What we want is more of Pakistan applied across the length & breadth of the Muslims world.
You are basically referring to one geographical nation correct? I told you that it will never happen until the return of Jesus. I haven't met any local here that desires such a thing. Besides, there are way too many risks involved. The only way anyone should settle for a caliphate is if it's one reminiscent of the golden age, & not one that resembles the Ottoman caliphate towards its end with its oppression of other races leading to the Arab revolt.
We already have that ! Do you think the Pakistan Army just likes the tune of it when they go - Sindhi hum, Balochi hum, Punjabi hum, Pathan hum, iss parcham ki nicheii Pak fauj ki jawan hum...Pakistan...Pakistan tum par qurban hum ! And that is applicable across the length & breadth of Pakistan...why do you think so many of us over here are products of inter-ethnic marriages ? Or why do you think we get along so well with each other ? Because we're in love with our languages but not to the extent where we'd be taking sides on the basis of that *read Ethno-linguistic Nationalism*. The few quarters where this is happening is dying away in the face of modernity & ever closer interactions.
A minor form of pride or nationalism in language, ethnicity, shared heritage of the past along with religion will further improve the bond between Pakistanis. I have great respect for Pakistan's army & I am proud of the sacrifices they have made for their country.
Who said anything about not 'accepting or celebrating diversity'...either way if he does come *I'm not a religious scholar so I can't comment on the nuances of faith* I don't think he'd be that concerned about writing a Pashto-Urdu Bol Chal Travel Guide.
All Muslims know about the return of Jesus, you don't need to be a religious scholar to learn that.
I don't care if an Arab's blood or my blood matches or not ! The only thing that matters is that if he or she is willing to go the extra mile for me & I for him/her...then we're one family ! Just like we do this here in Pakistan ! Whether a Pashtun comes from the same genepool as a Baloch is not something that either of them know or are led to believe & so if they can transcend it, whatever the truth maybe, then why can't an Arab & a Malay ? Its all in the head, Phoenix...its all in the head ! If you can rise above that...if I can rise above that...then so can the rest of them out there !
Is that possible today or tomorrow or even 10 years from today ? No...will it happen ? Eventually & so it is an ideal we can aspire too...! We've done it here in Pakistan...we'll do it once more on a macro-level too !
In short - Pan-Islamism i.e we're One family, doesn't equal that a Pashtun stops being a Pashtun or an Arab stops being an Arab & so on & so forth.
People helping each other out is common in the Muslim world even today. Plenty of Pakistanis help out Arabs & vice versa. However, my point still stands; just because someone is willing to help another person out, it does not necessarily mean acceptance. On a global scale nations help each other out all the time. Pakistan & Saudi Arabia have helped each other out multiple times as well.
Lastly I apologize again if I offended you...I can't for the life of me think that you'd think I was abusing you or anything of the sort ! Haven't you read enough of my posts already to know that I throw around those things with such reckless abandonment...they are, as George Carlin once said, intensifiers & not offensive abuses ! But I do apologize again...
Especially for thanking your posts !
The only reason I was annoyed by you thanking my posts is due to your provocative posts before that. I have read your posts before obviously, but all posts are not the same. Some are provocative while others are clearly a joke.
Okay then add me to your ignore list or if you want to...I can to mine ! Either way...I'm done ruining this thread ! I can have Aero PM you my ID & we can continue on with this conversation or we could just agree to disagree & talk about naswar instead !
I told you to let this discussion go & stop ruining this thread earlier. You ignored my recommendation back then. Now that I have responded to you, I too am done with ruining this thread. You do not need to share your personal information with me or anyone else for that matter. While I would never misuse personal information, there are people that might do just that. Anyway, it's your life; do whatever the hell you want. I don't care.
I could have given a much better response, unfortunately; I do not have the time to do so at the moment. If you wish to continue this discussion, let me know.
@ p(-)0ENiX
Manaa ye mera dakhal lagega, par jaane do dost, chalo kuch toofani karte hain, gadhe main gire logon par mitti daalte hain.....
Alright, my discussion is over. I responded to the last post, there is absolutely nothing else left to do. Let's go bury the ditch diggers.
**********
My discussion is over, the rest of you should carry on your discussion & continue to have a good time.
baby pishtol
