Naswar Corner

[Raja.Pakistani]

-Do we follow what the text says or not, should we take it as an allegory or literal-- at the end of the day, one can make out 3-4 meainings but the point is you are still restricted to possible variants one can deduce from the text.

Dude you dont know that all people have beliefs and differences no matter they follow secularism, islam, atheism, communism, humanism etc.

 

[Armstrong]

You mean secular, but the laws in those countries are based on testible evidence. For example, to stop someone from stealing, you send them to jail, crime decreases.

The problem religion has is:

-Do we follow what the text says or not, should we take it as an allegory or literal-- at the end of the day, one can make out 3-4 meainings but the point is you are still restricted to possible variants one can deduce from the text.

Thats where democracy steps in ! Come up with a narrative & then place it before the people...if they agree its get constituted into law, if not then we go back to the drawing board or someone else gets the vote.

Why does one need unanimity ? If I have a certain point of view & I place it before a million people as part of my party's manifesto or 'white papers' *are they called ?* & let the people decide whether they agree with such an interpretation. Just like such is the case with every other thing ! Principally speaking think of the Shariah as the Islamic equivalent of say the Swiss Civil Code...let the people decide between them ! Never...ever impose it the way Zia ul Haq did !

And this - the democratic process - is the only way for how else does one decide 'issues' on a collective level if not by letting the most heads prevail ! The assumption being here that people cannot agree in error like this because collective wisdom will prevail. If they want a Secular Pakistan, an Islamic Pakistan, an Islamist Pakistan, a Taliban styled Pakistan, an Iranian styled theocracy, a Maoist Pakistan, a Kingdom of Pakistan - Let them decide ! Let them decide...! It doesn't for a second imply that the decision is final & absolute or even 'correct' all it means is that at a 'collective' level the human race has yet to come up with a better system that brings about the ownership of a decision of as much of the People as possible & people's ownership equals a better received response. Furthermore because minorities cannot be ignored & at that large minorities there will always be compromise to bring them on board & at the end a consensus of as many different people as possible will be reached. That, in my opinion, is the only way forward.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

Listen man, do go ahead & report my posts & I'd even be your alibi of sorts, just to get this melodrama over with !

You're offended ? I apologized...you're still offended ? Bite me !

I am not fond of reporting other people's posts.

 

[Redbull]

Dude you dont know that all people have beliefs and differences no matter they follow secularism, islam, atheism, communism, humanism etc.

That's why you have democracy, so the majority decide.

The difference is that in secularism, if a law is not effective, you have as many alternative solutions as you can think of, with religous laws, you are restricted to a few fixed laws and you must chose from them.

 

[Armstrong]

I am not fond of reporting other people's posts.

Okay then add me to your ignore list or if you want to...I can to mine ! Either way...I'm done ruining this thread ! I can have Aero PM you my ID & we can continue on with this conversation or we could just agree to disagree & talk about naswar instead !

That's why you have democracy, so the majority decide.

The difference is that in secularism, if a law is not effective, you have as many alternative solutions as you can think of, with religous laws, you are restricted to a few fixed laws and you must chose from them.

Neither Islamic polity nor Islamic Jurisprudence is monolithic ! You'd be surprised at the depth & breadth of work done on it in ages past & present. Regrettably the quality of Islamic Scholarships in the present is such that the attaching the very term 'scholarship' seems like an overkill.

 

[Redbull]

Thats where democracy steps in ! Come up with a narrative & then place it before the people...if they agree its get constituted into law, if not then we go back to the drawing board or someone else gets the vote.

Why does one need unanimity ? If I have a certain point of view & I place it before a million people as part of my party's manifesto or 'white papers' *are they called ?* & let the people decide whether they agree with such an interpretation. Just like such is the case with every other thing ! Principally speaking think of the Shariah as the Islamic equivalent of say the Swiss Civil Code...let the people decide between them ! Never...ever impose it the way Zia ul Haq did !

And this - the democratic process - is the only way for how else does one decide 'issues' on a collective level if not by letting the most heads prevail ! The assumption being here that people cannot agree in error like this because collective wisdom will prevail. If they want a Secular Pakistan, an Islamic Pakistan, an Islamist Pakistan, a Taliban styled Pakistan, an Iranian styled theocracy, a Maoist Pakistan, a Kingdom of Pakistan - Let them decide ! Let them decide...! It doesn't for a second imply that the decision is final & absolute or even 'correct' all it means is that at a 'collective' level the human race has yet to come up with a better system that brings about the ownership of a decision of as much of the People as possible & people's ownership equals a better received response. Furthermore because minorities cannot be ignored & at that large minorities there will always be compromise to bring them on board & at the end a consensus of as many different people as possible will be reached. That, in my opinion, is the only way forward.

I'm in no way against people deciding any religous law through democratic means.

How popular is this btw, apart from Ghamidi sahib, I haven't heard anyone else claiming Sharia can be established through democratic means, do you feel it will resonate much with the people?

 

[Armstrong]

Zarvin you know my ID..if you want to continue on with this we can talk ! Right now tell me instead about some topics more relevant to the thread !

Hows your love life coming along my friend ?

I'm in no way against people deciding any religous law through democratic means.

How popular is this btw, apart from Ghamidi sahib, I haven't heard anyone else claiming Sharia can be established through democratic means, do you feel it will resonate much with the people?

I love the guy ! But yes...Israr Ahmed, Tariq Jamil, Tahir ul Qadri & many others like that.

But seriously lets continue this on gmail should you wish to !

 

[Redbull]

Zarvin you know my ID..if you want to continue on with this we can talk ! Right now tell me instead about some topics more relevant to the thread !

Hows your love life coming along my friend ?

What love life? I'm as shariff as our PMLN leader

 

[Armstrong]

What love life? I'm as shariff as our PMLN leader

Oh terii kiii !

You mean to tell me that you weren't ogling that lady yesterday when you went to Harrod's to get your gold platted underwears !

 

[Redbull]

Oh terii kiii !

You mean to tell me that you weren't ogling that lady yesterday when you went to Harrod's to get your gold platted underwears !

Oogling?

If I remember correctly, she had a very nice pearl neacklace that caught my eye.

What about that girl you saw whilst strolling through the open field in broad day light, running towards a fountian and[insert bollywood romance cliche]

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

That's why you have democracy, so the majority decide.

The difference is that in secularism, if a law is not effective, you have as many alternative solutions as you can think of, with religous laws, you are restricted to a few fixed laws and you must chose from them.

So if the majority decide the version of Islam which you personally don't like. Would you accept such democracy?

Its all depend on beliefs of people that whether they find the fixed laws of God more effective than the ones made by man which get change and evolve with time for example laws about homosexuality, laws about allowing prostitutions/drugs/wine/gambling/abortion etc

But again if you talk about these laws with non religious people then you will get difference of opinions whether death penalty should be ok or not , whether abortion is right or wrong etc whether gays should have right of adoption? Non religious people will also have differnt opinions on such issues

 

[Armstrong]

Oogling?

If I remember correctly, she had a very nice pearl neacklace that caught my eye.

What about that girl you saw whilst strolling through the open field in broad day light, running towards a fountian and[insert bollywood romance cliche]

That wasn't a girl...it was Hyperion !

 

[Redbull]

So if the majority decide the version of Islam which you personally don't like. Would you accept such democracy?

No, this applies for anyone, but you have to live with it.

Its all depend on beliefs of people that whether they find the fixed laws of God more effective than the ones made by man which get change and evolve with time for example laws about homosexuality, laws about allowing prostitutions/drugs/wine/gambling/abortion etc

Secularism doesn't say that, we have an option of adopting man made laws or religous laws depending on how effective they are. You have religous and only religous laws to chose from.

But again if you talk about these laws with non religious people then you will get difference of opinions whether death penalty should be ok or not , whether abortion is right or wrong etc whether gays should have right of adoption? Non religious people will also have differnt opinions on such issues

Yes, and we have democracy to deal with that. :smile:

 

[Armstrong]

Alright people lets stop ruining this thread with political talk ! Talon, Ticker, Zaidi, Aleesha - I'm sorry...please no Chaudrain's chitttar !

 

[Redbull]

That wasn't a girl...it was Hyperion !

Since when did he get a sex-change.

Anyway, it's getting late here and I got early uni, we'll talk some other time.