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Muslim Pakistan vs Islamic Pakistan

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yar why are you even bothering to argue on this topic. This is a long settled and a foregone conclusion that Pakistan was indeed made in the name of Islam and merely for "muslims" to live in a secular world. Let them waste their time. kuch haasil nahi hoga into. Pakistan IS Allah's day'n, it IS made in the name of Islam and that is JUUUUUST how it is.

We be rollin', n!ggas be hatin' so let 'em hate as we roll by rollin'!!!8-)
But always remember others will stumble upon this thread who are ignorant to these facts and by reading them they may realize this reality...
 
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But always remember others will stumble upon this thread who are ignorant to these facts and by reading them they may realize this reality...
yeah true. But ultimately yara, we forget that this isn't a debate between the two, i.e. Islamic and secular people. There's a third one...and He is the ultimate planner. In shaa Allah don't worry, they won't mislead the ones who are sincere and this Islamic republic of Pakistan will prevail.
 
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Yeah, that is why Quaid e Aazum created a department called Dept of Islamic reconstruction tasked to reconstruct Pakistan after independence. That is why he put a man called Muhammad Asad as the director of this department.
That is why the Quaid wanted an economic system based on the Quran and Sunah as per his speech in karachi on the state bank of Pakistan.

The Quaid was not perfect. He was a bit too tolerant, plus the Quaid knew there were insincere men in the movement but alas he had to accept them.
And after his death a "palace coup" took place and that department of Islamic reconstruction mysteriously burnt down...


For starters:

1)There is absolutely no reference to a Department of Islamic Reconstruction in any of the official documents of the Government of Pakistan.

2)There is no reference to “Allama” Asad aka Lepold Weiss in Jinnah Papers. Jinnah never corresponded with him, never met him and never appointed him to anything. I have looked through Jinnah Papers as well Jinnah’s correspondence during this period. Even the Shamsul Hassan collection has no reference to this Allama Asad. There is absolutely no primary source evidence that shows this Allama as being associated with the Pakistan Government. How strange then that Jinnah who meticulously saved his correspondence forgot to mention this.(Yasser Hamdani)

3)Muhammad Asad himself has made no mention of any such details in his famous auto biography ; "Road to Mecca"
The Road to Mecca (book) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


All we find is : Asad in his book “Principles of State and Government in Islam” claims that he headed what seems to be an Islamic Reconstruction Department in West Punjab. Even if that were true, which would require confirmation, that does not connect Asad to Jinnah or the Central Pakistan Government.


Soon after his arrival in Lahore, Asad was called by Nawab of Mamdot, the first Chief Minister of Western Punjab who sought advice on the possible ideological contours of the new country. Asad suggested setting up of an organization to examine this issue. Mamdot agreed and thus he came to design, set up and head the Department of Islamic Reconstruction. Explaining the aims and objectives of the Department in an interview broadcast over Radio Pakistan in October 1947, Asad observed that it was the only government department of its time anywhere in the Muslim world to carry the word ‘Islamic’ in its title. He added, “All that we are expected to do – all that we can legitimately do – is to help the community to co-ordinate its spiritual and intellectual resources and to revive the moral strength of which the Millat must be capable by virtue of its being the Millat of Islam; in other words to help the Millat to re-create the Islamic atmosphere so necessary for a revival of Islamic life in its practical aspects.”

A few weeks later the Chief Minister asked him to draw up a Memorandum on the lines of his article Towards Islamic Constitution which would be published by the government of Punjab and may come to the notice of the Central government.The Memorandum was soon written and published. It generated sufficient interest in the capital city that led to Asad being called to Karachi to meet with Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan who advised him to write in more detail on the subject of Islamic Constitution.
Muhammad Asad: The Story of a Story of a Story | Criterion

So saying that Jinnah himself set up a department of Islamic reconstruction and appointed Muhammad Asad as its head , is nothing more than a blatant lie , concocted by pathological liars like Orya Maqbool Jan ..


What our great scholar, Jinab Orya Sahib , apparently failed to realize (while desperately trying to "Islamize" Jinnah) is :

1) Muhammad Asad, accepted Islam on the hands of Maulana Sadar Ud Din, Imam of Berlin Mosque, Germany, run by Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement. His name is still written in the registers of converts to Islam.

2)His main focus was on the primacy of Quran over any all other sources such as Hadith and Sunna as he felt that Quran had been over-ruled by secondary sources. He did not believe in second coming of Jesus for example!!

So if Jinnah appointed such a man as head of Islamic Reconstruction Department , We can clearly judge Jinnah`s understanding of Islam !! Hope you get the point

How ironic is our dilemma as a country? We abuse and insult Zafrullah Khan, a man who Jinnah appointed as Pakistan’s first representative to the UN, Pakistan’s first foreign minister and Pakistan’s lawyer before the boundary commission but are willing to latch on to the most tenuous of claims by some Jewish convert to Islam of having been head of some provincial department, if at all. Muhammad Asad disliked Zafarullah as he was denied a permission to marry a polish lady by Ministry of Foreign affairs (Zafarullah was the foreign minister) .

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/islamization-of-jinnah.301462/page-11#post-5313838





Not true at all. Many prominent Islamic scholars did support Pakistan, such as Muhammad Shafi (he wrote the Maariful Quran Tafsir).

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ulema-and-pakistan-movement.305745/
 
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This discussion involves various aspects eg sources of islam and sources of muslims and nonmuslims, muslims and nonmuslims, muslims and islam, islam and islam, nonmuslim understanding of islam and muslim understanding of islam etc etc. Therefore it is a quite complicated issue.







 
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For starters:

1)There is absolutely no reference to a Department of Islamic Reconstruction in any of the official documents of the Government of Pakistan.

2)There is no reference to “Allama” Asad aka Lepold Weiss in Jinnah Papers. Jinnah never corresponded with him, never met him and never appointed him to anything. I have looked through Jinnah Papers as well Jinnah’s correspondence during this period. Even the Shamsul Hassan collection has no reference to this Allama Asad. There is absolutely no primary source evidence that shows this Allama as being associated with the Pakistan Government. How strange then that Jinnah who meticulously saved his correspondence forgot to mention this.(Yasser Hamdani)

3)Muhammad Asad himself has made no mention of any such details in his famous auto biography ; "Road to Mecca"
The Road to Mecca (book) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


All we find is : Asad in his book “Principles of State and Government in Islam” claims that he headed what seems to be an Islamic Reconstruction Department in West Punjab. Even if that were true, which would require confirmation, that does not connect Asad to Jinnah or the Central Pakistan Government.


Soon after his arrival in Lahore, Asad was called by Nawab of Mamdot, the first Chief Minister of Western Punjab who sought advice on the possible ideological contours of the new country. Asad suggested setting up of an organization to examine this issue. Mamdot agreed and thus he came to design, set up and head the Department of Islamic Reconstruction. Explaining the aims and objectives of the Department in an interview broadcast over Radio Pakistan in October 1947, Asad observed that it was the only government department of its time anywhere in the Muslim world to carry the word ‘Islamic’ in its title. He added, “All that we are expected to do – all that we can legitimately do – is to help the community to co-ordinate its spiritual and intellectual resources and to revive the moral strength of which the Millat must be capable by virtue of its being the Millat of Islam; in other words to help the Millat to re-create the Islamic atmosphere so necessary for a revival of Islamic life in its practical aspects.”

A few weeks later the Chief Minister asked him to draw up a Memorandum on the lines of his article Towards Islamic Constitution which would be published by the government of Punjab and may come to the notice of the Central government.The Memorandum was soon written and published. It generated sufficient interest in the capital city that led to Asad being called to Karachi to meet with Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan who advised him to write in more detail on the subject of Islamic Constitution.
Muhammad Asad: The Story of a Story of a Story | Criterion

So saying that Jinnah himself set up a department of Islamic reconstruction and appointed Muhammad Asad as its head , is nothing more than a blatant lie , concocted by pathological liars like Orya Maqbool Jan ..


What our great scholar, Jinab Orya Sahib , apparently failed to realize (while desperately trying to "Islamize" Jinnah) is :

1) Muhammad Asad, accepted Islam on the hands of Maulana Sadar Ud Din, Imam of Berlin Mosque, Germany, run by Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement. His name is still written in the registers of converts to Islam.

2)His main focus was on the primacy of Quran over any all other sources such as Hadith and Sunna as he felt that Quran had been over-ruled by secondary sources. He did not believe in second coming of Jesus for example!!

So if Jinnah appointed such a man as head of Islamic Reconstruction Department , We can clearly judge Jinnah`s understanding of Islam !! Hope you get the point

How ironic is our dilemma as a country? We abuse and insult Zafrullah Khan, a man who Jinnah appointed as Pakistan’s first representative to the UN, Pakistan’s first foreign minister and Pakistan’s lawyer before the boundary commission but are willing to latch on to the most tenuous of claims by some Jewish convert to Islam of having been head of some provincial department, if at all. Muhammad Asad disliked Zafarullah as he was denied a permission to marry a polish lady by Ministry of Foreign affairs (Zafarullah was the foreign minister) .

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/islamization-of-jinnah.301462/page-11#post-5313838







https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ulema-and-pakistan-movement.305745/

I am aware many Islamic scholars went against Pakistan, but some sided with it, such as Muhammad Shafi, Shabbir Ahmed Usmani, Ashraf Ali Thanwi, etc.

Even if that was not the case, Pakistan should still be ruled by Sharia since it is an Islamic obligation.
 
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Pakistan should still be ruled by Sharia since it is an Islamic obligation.
I've been dying to ask you many questions about Sharia penal code, since you seem keen you must know it very well. I posted some before in a different thread, then deleted them due to the fear of PDF hyenas-cum-scholars and keyboard warriors.

I am going to ask one more time, then hide and hope for the best. Here goes:

what is the punishment for an unemployed and hungry bread thief?
what is the punishment for a killer who is mentally retarded or deranged?

I've already asked at a wahabi/salfi forum (I also asked ismaeli, ahmadi, shia, hanafi, sufi and sunni (barelvi), deobandi (South African) and received some replies which I'll share with you if you first answer my 2 questions.
cheers
 
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I've been dying to ask you may questions about Sharia penal code,since you seem keen you must know it very well. I Posted some before in a different thread, then deleted them due to the fear of PDF hyenas-cum-scholars and keyboard warriors.

I am going to ask one more time, then hide and hope for the best. Here goes:

what is the punishment for an unemployed and hungry bread thief?
what is the punishment for a killer who is mentally retarded or deranged?

I've already asked at a wahabi/salfi forum (I also asked ismaeli, ahmadi, shia, hanafi, sufi and sunni (barelvi), deobandi (South African) and received some replies which I'll share with you if you first answer my 2 questions.
cheers

They don't get any, since the former only steals out of necessity, and the latter doesn't really have complete control over his actions.
 
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They don't get any, since the former only steals out of necessity, and the latter doesn't really have complete control over his actions.
Yes! Thank you, I can live with that. But alas out of all sects I asked only a Hanafi Prof. from a Karachi Islamic university gave me the answer which was same as yours. All the rest chaar jamaat pass mullahs disagreed. Ahmadis and Ismailis abstained.
cheers!
 
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Yes! Thank you, I can live with that. But alas out of all sects I asked only a Hanafi Prof. from a karachi's Islamic university gave me the answer which was same as yours. All the rest chaar jamaat pass mullahs disagreed. Ahmadis and Ismailis abstained.
cheers!

Question Time.

The Problem is that the state is responsible for providing for them or not ?

If the state is responsible. The Offenders can be let Go if Minimum requirements were not fulfilled.

If the act is habitual or a psychological the Offenders be given therapy.

The punishment Starts from just one Finger and goes on to Cover the whole Hand.

Classical.

Modern Interpretations are Open for debate.

Rest i dont know.
 
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