Muslim Pakistan vs Islamic Pakistan

[Solomon2]

you let the university decide the dean of Islamic Studies. And you let the local community decide the key holder for the mosque. simple as that.

O.K. for the university but what do you mean by "the local community"?

Come to think of it, who appoints the university boss who decides the dean of Islamic Studies? In Pakistan isn't that the Higher Education Commission appointed by the prime minister?

 

[GumNaam]

O.K. for the university but what do you mean by "the local community"?

Come to think of it, who appoints the university boss who decides the dean of Islamic Studies? In Pakistan isn't that the Higher Education Commission appointed by the prime minister?

don't ask me stupid questions man. A mosque is never out in the middle of the boonies, it is always a part of a community. So whoever the community decides to take as the leader, they get to control the keys. Its not rocket science.

And yeah so is there a problem with with the head of a university appointed by the HEC appointed by the pm hiring a dean of Islamic studies? What's so wrong with that? Its called "delegation responsibilities". Nothing unislamic about that.

 

[Solomon2]

don't ask me stupid questions man. A mosque is never out in the middle of the boonies, it is always a part of a community.

It's ignorance, not stupidity. I only have my experience here in the U.S. to relate to and mosques are built both in the cities and "in the middle of the boonies". And I've seen demonstrators outside of an urban mosque, Muslims contesting for their right to control the mosque over those who currently hold the keys to it.

And yeah so is there a problem with with the head of a university appointed by the HEC appointed by the pm hiring a dean of Islamic studies? What's so wrong with that? Its called "delegation responsibilities". Nothing unislamic about that.

It's State control of the curriculum and through that, the development of students' minds. What's wrong with that is that it's a tool of tyranny.

 

[GumNaam]

It's ignorance, not stupidity. I only have my experience here in the U.S. to relate to and mosques are built both in the cities and "in the middle of the boonies". And I've seen demonstrators outside of an urban mosque, Muslims contesting for their right to control the mosque over those who currently hold the keys to it.

It's State control of the curriculum and through that, the development of students' minds. What's wrong with that is that it's a tool of tyranny.

That's how it is throughout the world.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Pakistan was created in the name of Islam, and was supposed to be a nation ruled by Sharia.

End of story.

If Pakistan was supposed to be a nation ruled by Islamic Sharia then why was a Hindu (Jogendra Lal Mandal) appointed as the first Law Minister of Pakistan by Jinnah ?

If Jinnah wanted to establish a state ruled by Sharia, then why were there no scholars/aalims/muftis/mullahs in his team ??

As pointed out by Shabir Choudhary:

1. Mohammed Ali Jinnah became Governor General of Pakistan;
2. Sir Frederick Bourne was appointed the Governor of East Pakistan;
3. Sir Francis Mudie the Governor of Punjab;
4. Sir George Cunningham the Governor of N.W.F.P;
5. Sir Ghulam Hussain Hidayatullah, the Governor of Sindh;
6. General Sir Frank Messervey Chief of the Pakistan Army;
7. Air Vice-Marshal Perry-Keane Chief of the Pakistan Air Force;
8. Admiral Jefford the Chief of Pakistan Navy;
9. Financial Advisor to Mohammed Ali Jinnah was Sir Archibald Rowland;
10. Liaquat Ali Khan Prime Minister, Minister for Foreign Affairs and Defense;
11. In December Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan was appointed Foreign Minister and Commonwealth relations;
12. I. Chundrigar Minister for Commerce, Industries and Works;
13. Sardar Abdur Rab Nishtar Minister for Communications;
14. Raja Ghazanfar Ali Minister for Food, Agriculture and Health;
15. Jogendra Nath Mandal Minister for Labour and Law;
16. Ghulam Muhammad Minister for Finance;
17. Fazlur Rahman Minister for Interior, Information and Education
18. Mohammed Ali Jinnah also asked many skilled British technocrats to stay and serve in the Pakistani government.

In the very first meeting of the Cabinet a special resolution was passed that Mohammed Ali Jinnah will also help ministers in policy making; and in case of a difference of opinions his decision was to be final. In other words, he had absolute power in running Pakistan.

I would like you to look at the above list and decide if this team was suitable to establish Islamic Sharia?

 

[GumNaam]

If Jinnah wanted to establish a state ruled by Sharia, then why were there no scholars/aalims/muftis/mullahs in his team ??

Cuz he wanted a government, not a wajib ul qatal fatwa factory!

 

[Hamza913]

If Pakistan was supposed to be a nation ruled by Islamic Sharia then why was a Hindu (Jogendra Lal Mandal) appointed as the first Law Minister of Pakistan by Jinnah ?

If Jinnah wanted to establish a state ruled by Sharia, then why were there no scholars/aalims/muftis/mullahs in his team ??

As pointed out by Shabir Choudhary:

1. Mohammed Ali Jinnah became Governor General of Pakistan;
2. Sir Frederick Bourne was appointed the Governor of East Pakistan;
3. Sir Francis Mudie the Governor of Punjab;
4. Sir George Cunningham the Governor of N.W.F.P;
5. Sir Ghulam Hussain Hidayatullah, the Governor of Sindh;
6. General Sir Frank Messervey Chief of the Pakistan Army;
7. Air Vice-Marshal Perry-Keane Chief of the Pakistan Air Force;
8. Admiral Jefford the Chief of Pakistan Navy;
9. Financial Advisor to Mohammed Ali Jinnah was Sir Archibald Rowland;
10. Liaquat Ali Khan Prime Minister, Minister for Foreign Affairs and Defense;
11. In December Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan was appointed Foreign Minister and Commonwealth relations;
12. I. Chundrigar Minister for Commerce, Industries and Works;
13. Sardar Abdur Rab Nishtar Minister for Communications;
14. Raja Ghazanfar Ali Minister for Food, Agriculture and Health;
15. Jogendra Nath Mandal Minister for Labour and Law;
16. Ghulam Muhammad Minister for Finance;
17. Fazlur Rahman Minister for Interior, Information and Education
18. Mohammed Ali Jinnah also asked many skilled British technocrats to stay and serve in the Pakistani government.

In the very first meeting of the Cabinet a special resolution was passed that Mohammed Ali Jinnah will also help ministers in policy making; and in case of a difference of opinions his decision was to be final. In other words, he had absolute power in running Pakistan.

I would like you to look at the above list and decide if this team was suitable to establish Islamic Sharia?

Just because he hired kafirs did not mean he did not wish to apply Sharia.

He had Islamic scholars backing him, but obviously they wouldn't be in his government. They were clergymen, not politicians.

Acha ji... uhm and which firqa's sharia are we planning on following? Bear in mind, our sectarian so called scholars won't even pray behind each other let alone obey the molvi in power...

Hanafi, since that fiqh dominates Pakistan overwhelmingly (90+ percent)

Don't know what you had for breakfast. Do know there's a lot your military and political leaders won't tell you about your own country - see the latest controversy about N.S.'s Mumbai comments. And if your leaders won't tell you the truth about what you can see today with your own eyes, what business do you have investing your faith in what they teach about the past or distant countries where you cannot see for yourself what's going on?

Sticking to a distorted and (in Pakistan) unquestionable history doesn't grant you any greater measure of truth or credibility.

Lmao the Zionist wants to lecture us about distorted history.

 

[GumNaam]

Hanafi, since that fiqh dominates Pakistan overwhelmingly (90+ percent)

I can almost guarantee you that most people even with an inter level education wouldn't want to be ruled by a specific fiqh and the resistance will be directly proportional to the educational level. And then we have our 10% to 15% shia brothers. Trust me man, keep fiqh free at least at the government level. And it's not very difficult. Make the shariah court a part of the supreme court instead of an advisory body and close all the chor darvazas in the constitution. That's it...in shaa Allah Islam khud nafiz ho jaye ga.

 

[Hamza913]

I can almost guarantee you that most people even with an inter level education wouldn't want to be ruled by a specific fiqh and the resistance will be directly proportional to the educational level. And then we have our 10% to 15% shia brothers. Trust me man, keep fiqh free at least at the government level. And it's not very difficult. Make the shariah court a part of the supreme court instead of an advisory body and close all the chor darvazas in the constitution. That's it...in shaa Allah Islam khud nafiz ho jaye ga.

Shias are not even 10% as per latest polls, Pakistan is 90+ percent Sunni, almost all of whom are Hanafi.

 

[GumNaam]

Shias are not even 10% as per latest polls, Pakistan is 90+ percent Sunni, almost all of whom are Hanafi.

You still get my point. Ziada fiqhoan may jaanay ki zaroorat hi nahi hay. Just give muscles to the powerless shariat court by making them a part of the supreme court and then remove the backdoors.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Just because he hired kafirs did not mean he did not wish to apply Sharia.

He had Islamic scholars backing him, but obviously they wouldn't be in his government. They were clergymen, not politicians.

Jinnah hiring kafirs to run the business of the state DOES mean that applying Sharia had not been intended by him ..

And Islamic scholars were against Jinnah and his Pakistan movement. The universal opposition of virtually every significant religious group in Undivided India, indeed the entire Muslim religious establishment to Jinnah's Pakistan movement and the Muslim League cannot be reconciled with any idea of religious origins of Pakistan. This is just one of many paradoxes that anyone who thinks of that the true reason for the creation of Pakistan was to establish a religious 'Islamic state', must unravel.

Hanafi, since that fiqh dominates Pakistan overwhelmingly (90+ percent)

70 to 75 % of Pakistani population may be Hanafi, but there are some serious disagreements among various sects that claim to be Hanafi .. Be more specific ... You want Barelvi Paksitan ? or do you want Deoband Pakistan ? .. The founders of these sects have issued Kufr fatwas against each other, forget the rest (25-30 % of the population) who either are Non Hanafi Muslims or are non Muslims .... It's not as simple as you think it is ... We are a Republic, and minorities have certain inalienable rights .. And the founding father of this nation himself was also not a Hanafi ...

Make the shariah court a part of the supreme court instead of an advisory body and close all the chor darvazas in the constitution. That's it...in shaa Allah Islam khud nafiz ho jaye ga.

Federal Shariat Court and the Shariat Appellate Bench of the Supreme Court are not "advisory bodies". They are parallel apex courts ... Federal Shariat Court's decisions are binding on High Courts and it's decisions can only be challenged in the Shariat Appellate Bench of the Supreme Court .

 

[Hamza913]

Jinnah hiring kafirs to run the business of the state DOES mean that applying Sharia had not been intended by him ..

And Islamic scholars were against Jinnah and his Pakistan movement. The universal opposition of virtually every significant religious group in Undivided India, indeed the entire Muslim religious establishment to Jinnah's Pakistan movement and the Muslim League cannot be reconciled with any idea of religious origins of Pakistan. This is just one of many paradoxes that anyone who thinks of that the true reason for the creation of Pakistan was to establish a religious 'Islamic state', must unravel.






70 to 75 % of Pakistani population may be Hanafi, but there are some serious disagreements among various sects that claim to be Hanafi .. Be more specific ... You want Barelvi Paksitan ? or do you want Deoband Pakistan ? .. The founders of these sects have issued Kufr fatwas against each other, forget the rest (25-30 % of the population) who either are Non Hanafi Muslims or are non Muslims .... It's not as simple as you think it is ... We are a Republic, and minorities have certain inalienable rights .. And the founding father of this nation himself was also not a Hanafi ...



Federal Shariat Court and the Shariat Appellate Bench of the Supreme Court are not "advisory bodies". They are parallel apex courts ... Federal Shariat Court's decisions are binding on High Courts and it's decisions can only be challenged in the Shariat Appellate Bench of the Supreme Court .

Not true at all. Many prominent Islamic scholars did support Pakistan, such as Muhammad Shafi (he wrote the Maariful Quran Tafsir).

Less than 10% of Pakistan is non-Sunni. Among the Sunnis, Hanafi fiqh is followed by almost everyone.

I would prefer a SalafI style state, but that is not currently feasible so I will settle for a Hanafi state, with laws that are neutral to Deobandis and Barelvis (with the exception of shrines, I would want building new ones to be banned).

Jinnah converted to Sunni Islam before his death.

 

[ghauri05]

Liberals trying to sell their Manjan of Hatred against Islam...I mean these liberals will always label others for promoting hatred...aren't you doing the same against Islam and Sharia laws? the language you used about Sharia laws..shows that you believe Islamic laws are invalid n should be abandoned completely.

The comparison you drew is so poor and baseless between Islamic and Muslim state.
For Any Muslim, all the Sharia laws are important, n he is bound to follow them..coz Islam is a constitution of life...not a personal tissue paper,which whenever u wanna use , u do it otherwise throw it in dustbin.
The concept propagated about Muslim state is,..You are a muslim but you don't need to follow any of islamic law rather you should condemn them.

1 more thing you liberal knucklehead, yo actually need to read and understand Islam..how it promotes democratic values, how it values personal freedom etc.
personal freedom doesn't mean i can break any law i want to....those restrictions about alcohol n clothing are not imposed by man but by Allah..so either you are actually defying Him..not any molvi...For more info try to read Quran..It's ramadan u may get some knowledge about Islam.

All the things u mentioned which are curtailed by so called Islamic state..are mostly promoting Obscenity..Oh but the sole aim of liberals is to promote it.
N tell me Has Islam/Pak ever forced someone to not to follow their religion?
Another thing u mentioned that a MUllah is there to take the decision..kid first read the history of islam..the persons who were used to take decisions were very much skilled n experts in their respective fields..that's why Muslims of that time lead the world..if it was a common Mullah or for that matter any other person(but as our liberals love to use Mullah as an insult) who had no knowledge how to run state affairs..Muslims would never have achieved so many goals

Fact is you liberals can't fathom islam at all n are highly inspired by western obscenity n other wrong values n just want to implement them here.The only wish of liberals is...that everyone should be allowed to drink n **** n no one should ask any question.They desire that anyone can mock islamic entities n he/she should go free...but at the same time expect from us that we should respect other reliogions

Just tell me 1 thing, is it only our responsibility to respect other religions n their values..why is it not the other way round?

 

[TMA]

Jinnah hiring kafirs to run the business of the state DOES mean that applying Sharia had not been intended by him ..

And Islamic scholars were against Jinnah and his Pakistan movement. The universal opposition of virtually every significant religious group in Undivided India, indeed the entire Muslim religious establishment to Jinnah's Pakistan movement and the Muslim League cannot be reconciled with any idea of religious origins of Pakistan. This is just one of many paradoxes that anyone who thinks of that the true reason for the creation of Pakistan was to establish a religious 'Islamic state', must unravel.






70 to 75 % of Pakistani population may be Hanafi, but there are some serious disagreements among various sects that claim to be Hanafi .. Be more specific ... You want Barelvi Paksitan ? or do you want Deoband Pakistan ? .. The founders of these sects have issued Kufr fatwas against each other, forget the rest (25-30 % of the population) who either are Non Hanafi Muslims or are non Muslims .... It's not as simple as you think it is ... We are a Republic, and minorities have certain inalienable rights .. And the founding father of this nation himself was also not a Hanafi ...



Federal Shariat Court and the Shariat Appellate Bench of the Supreme Court are not "advisory bodies". They are parallel apex courts ... Federal Shariat Court's decisions are binding on High Courts and it's decisions can only be challenged in the Shariat Appellate Bench of the Supreme Court .

Yeah, that is why Quaid e Aazum created a department called Dept of Islamic reconstruction tasked to reconstruct Pakistan after independence. That is why he put a man called Muhammad Asad as the director of this department.
That is why the Quaid wanted an economic system based on the Quran and Sunah as per his speech in karachi on the state bank of Pakistan.

The Quaid was not perfect. He was a bit too tolerant, plus the Quaid knew there were insincere men in the movement but alas he had to accept them.
And after his death a "palace coup" took place and that department of Islamic reconstruction mysteriously burnt down...

 

[GumNaam]

Yeah, that is why Quaid e Aazum created a department called Dept of Islamic reconstruction tasked to reconstruct Pakistan after independence. That is why he put a man called Muhammad Asad as the director of this department.
That is why the Quaid wanted an economic system based on the Quran and Sunah as per his speech in karachi on the state bank of Pakistan.

The Quaid was not perfect. He was a bit too tolerant, plus the Quaid knew there were insincere men in the movement but alas he had to accept them.
And after his death a "palace coup" took place and that department of Islamic reconstruction mysteriously burnt down...

yar why are you even bothering to argue on this topic. This is a long settled and a foregone conclusion that Pakistan was indeed made in the name of Islam and merely for "muslims" to live in a secular world. Let them waste their time. kuch haasil nahi hoga into. Pakistan IS Allah's day'n, it IS made in the name of Islam and that is JUUUUUST how it is.

We be rollin', n!ggas be hatin' so let 'em hate as we roll by rollin'!!!