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MMRCA ....what's your choice????

what's your choice


  • Total voters
    74
  • Poll closed .
Sure, I posted it in my Rafale vs F18SH comparison before, it's from the FAB (Brazilian Air Force) technical evaluation report:






Original source:

ISTOÉ Independente - Economia & Negócios

Sacho bhai,

Flyaway cost of rafale for France in 2008 was $ 82.3 million.
Official Source

So,
Official sources of the Brazilian MoD has quoted fly away costs for all the final contenders as:

$79 million for Rafale
$55 million for F18SH
$50 million for Gripen E/F

That is very, very hard to believe!


Now, about the article you quoted,

1st qoute- posting it in full

The report shows the FAB positive and negative points of each plane using a color code (blue, yellow and red) instead of notes. Of the three, the French jet features the most comprehensive technology package and the Swede appears at first glance, like the best price. Your unit value without the stimulus of armaments and maintenance costs, is U.S. $ 50 million... It would be a good deal, the Gripen NG was not just a development project. This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs and ensure compliance with the deadlines.


I think this one is talking about the grippen's price and not Rafale's so not relevant here.


2nd qoute..

..Nevertheless, the American fighter is offered today at a stable price of $ 55 million. In the case of the Rafale, to be fully operational, it took 7.5 billion euros (U.S. $ 10.9 billion), a difference of 50% over the initial estimate. Price per unit without arms and support was 94 million euros ($ 136 million) when it began to be sold, but then fell to 54 million euros ($ 78 million). This is the value offered to Brazil in the latest proposal by Dassault and even practiced with the French government.

This is not from any direct official document from Brazillian AF (FAB) but just a claim from this daily that it has a copy of this report.

IstoE obtained confidential details of the offers of the finalists: the French Rafale from Dassault, the American F-18 Super Hornet, Boeing, and the Swedish Gripen, Saab.


How reliable is this claim?

Do we have any other confirmation from any direct source, this article looks biased?

Consider this news report from AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE which is trashing your source.

Early this month, the Brazilian government denied it had made a final decision to buy the Rafales, and said a newspaper report that Dassault had lopped two billion dollars off their total price to secure the contract was baseless.

The daily, Folha de S. Paulo, published an unsourced report saying France was willing to sell the Rafales for a discounted 6.2 billion dollars -- down from 8.2 billion dollars -- plus another four billion dollars in maintenance over the next three decades.

Your source also quotes the 10 billion $ tag, same as the above. Which is wrong according to this!


Please bolster this claim for the unit price of rafale. And then I'll return to your original post about operational costs and how EFT is as good as Rafale in that sector too!


@Benny bhai,

Spectra, Elix-er etc. post coming up!
 
How long is this thread going to go on. Kuch to time limit chahiye. Even time given for voting in the election is limited. Its high time to declare Euro Fighter the winner with over 47% votes.
:victory::victory::victory:

OT: I think politically right now US with F/A 18 is ahead with EF consortium right on their tail. The French are no where to be seen. This for me goes against Rafale.

Another reason i have some doubts on Rafale is due to the many changes that UAE has asked for most importantly higher thrust engines. This will be very relevent in case of IAF. This impacts the F/A 18 as well. I think there are many unknowns in case of Rafale for my liking.
 
@ganimi kawa
Already SPECTRA is integrated which is proving to be a game changer.It actually reduces RCS too
Thales Spectra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Would like to know the answers to the questions raised by following posters with respect to spectra!

Gambit--What is wrong with Rafale?

Prateek---Problems are many with SPECTRA active cancellation

Also Elix-IR, the next generation threat warning system.
Similar to PIMAWS capabilities on Typhoon. No decisive edge!

Not to forget the french has agreed to integrate Kaveri_snecma into Rafale when its ready.

Agreed! That would be a good thing to have!



Also enhanced XF version of its Damocles targeting pod

EFT has Litening pod, whose latest version G4 is equally capable. Also some commonality with Litening pods on Su 30 mki and jaguars helps.
 
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@MST,

Another reason i have some doubts on Rafale is due to the many changes that UAE has asked for most importantly higher thrust engines. This will be very relevent in case of IAF. This impacts the F/A 18 as well. I think there are many unknowns in case of Rafale for my liking.

Nice point. UAE also made two other demands IIRC.

1. More powerful radar than RBE-2 AA.

2. Better HMD.

Also, france has asked for about 2 billions more for these upgardes (again IIRC). So, the plane becomes even costlier.



@ Indian Jatt.

A very good point about the ability of EF GmBH to meet and exceed the offset requirements.

This has been one of the strongest point in favour of EFT and has been recognised in many competitions elsewhere!
 
Ok something interesting.....not sure if it was posted earlier since I did not participate much in earleir discussions....

Eurofighter officials are bullish on the projected performance of the AESA, noting it will be more capable than many rivals. Typhoon’s radar will have twice as many T/R modules compared with the smaller Rafale radar, and will also be larger than the F-35’s while having more modern technology than the F-16’s and F-15’s radar, they assert. Flight trials of a preproduction version are slated for 2012.

Typhoon Partners Focus On Sensor Upgrade | AVIATION WEEK
 
@ ganimi kawa

I'm sorry mate, but it seems to not really read my posts!

It is from the official and final FAB report (not the early fake that placed the Gripen at first!), this was even confirmed from Brazilian MoD officials and I was even in contact with one of them. The parts I marked proves the figures I gave before for Gripen, SH and Rafale and that's what you asked me for right? So it was relevant, moreover the part for Rafale clearly said, that the initial fly away cost that was proposed at the begining was $136 millions, but later was reduced to $78 and now take point 1. to account that I gave you in my first post:

1. The costs for the developing country, or the partners are different to costs for normal export customers, because costs for R&D are not included!

So when France (the developing country) pays $82.3 millions without R&D...$136 fly away for an export customer with R&D...proves exaclty what I said. It's obvious that Dassault tries everything to seal the first export deal and therefor reduced the cost, but as I said, the final price will depend on the numbers Brazil really want to order at the end.

Another figure from the Saudi deal:

96 Rafales F2 were offered for $8.32 billions => $86.66 millions each
72 EFs T2 were offered for $8.86 billions => $123.05 millions each

Arabian Aerospace - D-Days for Rafale

Saudis Pay 4.43 Billion Pounds for 72 Eurofighters (Update5) - Bloomberg


Even in the recent report of the British Telegraph, it was stated:

The disclosure is a significant boost for the Typhoon consortium, but it must now address Indian concerns that the Eurofighter is more expensive than its competitors in upfront costs. British, German, Spanish and Italian officials are confident however that it will be cheaper than its competitors over the lifetime of its deployment.

UK closes in on $11bn fighter deal - Telegraph

As you can see the Rafale is cheaper than the EF and even the partners can't say anything against it but that it will be cheaper in time.

Btw, you are contradicting yourself, because although you wanted to prove that EF is cheaper, your own sources confirmed that EF partners pays $106 millions fly away (only the fighter and engines) each unit, while France only pays $82 million! ;)


As I said I am not joining the discussion, because I knew it would end up like this, active cancellation is not proven for Rafale, neither was PIMAWS ever integrated into EF! This discussion of you guys will lead nowhere when you not base it on available facts, that are cleared for the EF T3 and Rafale F3+ versions that are on offer for MMRCA and instead speculate about things that are not real.

Have fun guys but keep the discussions fair and don't get rude! :cheers:
 
Its not about a$$ kicking only. Maitainence and operational costs also matter in long run besides amount of technology sharing is also one of the most critical evaluation parameter.

A$$ kicking may be left to MKI or FGFA. MMRCA must suite medium reuirements of IAF not high end ones
 
Its not about a$$ kicking only. Maitainence and operational costs also matter in long run besides amount of technology sharing is also one of the most critical evaluation parameter.

A$$ kicking may be left to MKI or FGFA. MMRCA must suite medium reuirements of IAF not high end ones

technically you are absolutly right.....

but here on a forum , if some one given a choice to choose b/w a Merz or a Corola ...the member will chose a Merz ...

but in actuality we may buy a WagonR only...


coming to MMRCA , prectically it should be scraped once the IAF has the LCA now....unless there is a lap of technology advance platform on offering in mmrca deal , otherwise there couldn't ba justification of buying a aircrafts almost 4 times the cost of LCA...
 
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From benny's link
35567.jpg


Euro fighter locks in Rafale's HUD :blink:


:toast_sign: to eurofighter


Rafale rocks :smitten:
 

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