MMRCA ....what's your choice????

[SpArK]

ATLC in the UAE: F-22s, Rafales, Typhoons and more | G2 Solutions News Analysis

 

[choos lee]

but in actuality we may buy a WagonR only...

Man that was funny. BTW WagonR is really good and economical choice.

coming to MMRCA , prectically it should be scraped once the IAF has the LCA now....unless there is a lap of technology advance platform on offering in mmrca deal , otherwise there couldn't ba justification of buying a aircrafts almost 4 times the cost of LCA..

The bottom line is Technology, which can be used, with due reaserch and advancements into future Indian A/C Programs like AMCA etc

 

[kingdurgaking]

From benny's link

Euro fighter locks in Rafale's HUD


to eurofighter


Rafale rocks

Hmmmm pic looks like a PS... does the HUD will poses such ugly arrows?... i am damn sure this is some kind of gimmics work... I can also do similar work

 

[kingdurgaking]

Yaa.. i am sometimes also known as Patrick in some parts of Lille and Paris.

sorry buddy i didn't saw he is you.. I said he is also a Rafael fan just like you.... secondly official exercise will not release any of the result.. so far only simulations exercise results are published

 

[Mirza Jatt]

ATLC in the UAE: F-22s, Rafales, Typhoons and more | G2 Solutions News Analysis

typhoon and rafale were in the same side in this dubai exercise..so no question of rafale targetting EF...infact it was f22 which fared better than both EF and rafale.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

sorry buddy i didn't saw he is you.. I said he is also a Rafael fan just like you.... secondly official exercise will not release any of the result.. so far only simulations exercise results are published

exactly what I thought..these are blogs by rafale supporters...if we are to belive Blogs, then EF was flying with full payload unlike rafale.

 

[kingdurgaking]

typhoon and rafale were in the same side in this dubai exercise..so no question of rafale targetting EF...infact it was f22 which fared better than both EF and rafale.

heeee heeee Rafael would have targeted EF .. when have they attacked the opponents so far?? They always were behind only Friendly force and doing some sniffing activities

 

[ganimi kawa]

From benny's link

Euro fighter locks in Rafale's HUD


to eurofighter


Rafale rocks

IIRC, this HUD pic belongs to a Mirage and not Rafale,
A slight chance if rafale has retained the symbology.

Also the EF does not appear in the cannon path (a nitpick, though)!

Now, please don't go on and claim that mirage too claimed X:1 ratio against EFT.

ATLC reports were all french, please site some other source. Or I'll give you the results of BVR fight simulation exercises carried out by EFT people against the rafale.

Also, there is report of a successful missile shot taken at Rafale by.........A JAGUAR!

In nutshell, please do not indulge in fancy claims! (This goes for EF supporters too!)

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

MMRCA deal is going to be very complicated for india. various economic/political/technological considerations need to take place before final contract.
Rafale-very costly. the cost may go in excess of 13 billion dollars.
Mig-35-under development. induction into IAF will get delayed.
F-16IN and F-18- sucpicion towards non transfer of critical technolgy and product support at later stage.
Gripen-can it match other aircrafts in the competition.
Eurofighter-AESA radar still under development.

i would go for eurofighter or rafale (cost permitting).

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

Man that was funny. BTW WagonR is really good and economical choice.



The bottom line is Technology, which can be used, with due reaserch and advancements into future Indian A/C Programs like AMCA etc

LCA is still one year away from full induction. i think MMRCA is actually reqd to fill technological gap in our inventory.

 

[Mughal-Prince]

if we didnt choose Rafale , there is a huge chance that Rafale will fly in PAF colours... , for that only reason i voted for Rafale

typical indian mentality na.......

Your last comment make me LMAO buddy ... Thumbs up for u buddy

 

[ganimi kawa]

@ ganimi kawa

I'm sorry mate, but it seems to not really read my posts!

It is from the official and final FAB report (not the early fake that placed the Gripen at first!), this was even confirmed from Brazilian MoD officials and I was even in contact with one of them. The parts I marked proves the figures I gave before for Gripen, SH and Rafale and that's what you asked me for right? So it was relevant, moreover the part for Rafale clearly said, that the initial fly away cost that was proposed at the begining was $136 millions, but later was reduced to $78 and now take point 1. to account that I gave you in my first post:

No bhai,on the contrary, I always read your posts with utmost care. At the begining, I appreciated your statement

1. The costs for the developing country, or the partners are different to costs for normal export customers, because costs for R&D are not included!

And had made up my reply justifying why I had to compare the EF T3 contract with the brazillian rafale offer. But then I came across "$ 78 million for brazillian rafale" , which goes against the very spirit of your quoted statement above. So, my reply took a different direction and thus the query for a reliable source for this claim.

I'm scouring the net in vain for any other source for this FAB report or any statement from FAB officials. Is it in the brazillian media only?

Though, I trust you saying that you were in touch with people in the loop and thus assuming 10 billion $ for 36 Rafales from this point on!

So when France (the developing country) pays $82.3 millions without R&D...$136 fly away for an export customer with R&D...proves exaclty what I said. It's obvious that Dassault tries everything to seal the first export deal and therefor reduced the cost, but as I said, the final price will depend on the numbers Brazil really want to order at the end.

Hence the surprise with 79mil $ price tag for Brazil! Still finding it hard to believe! It would be interesting to know the details of Fx deal for rafale if and when Brazil signs it.

Another figure from the Saudi deal:

96 Rafales F2 were offered for $8.32 billions => $86.66 millions each
72 EFs T2 were offered for $8.86 billions => $123.05 millions each

Arabian Aerospace - D-Days for Rafale

Saudis Pay 4.43 Billion Pounds for 72 Eurofighters (Update5) - Bloomberg

The arabian aerospace link you mentioned says this about the rafale's Saudi proposal...

In 2005 French newspapers reported that Saudi Arabia had agreed in principle to acquire up to 96 Rafales for a reported price of some €6bn following discussions between then-French president Jacques Chirac and Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Abdullah, though Saudi Arabia subsequently confirmed its order for 72 Eurofighter Typhoons, and Dassault subsequently denied that there had been any offer or negotiations.

So no such offer, says the Dassault.

Btw, you are contradicting yourself, because although you wanted to prove that EF is cheaper, your own sources confirmed that EF partners pays $106 millions fly away (only the fighter and engines) each unit, while France only pays $82 million!

Ah, but that is just half the story. I'll quote the full para from the source....

The total program cost for the state is 39.6 billion euros (financial conditions on 1 January 2008) which brings the unit cost per aircraft (excluding development) between 64 and 70 million euros depending versions, however this value to increase because of ongoing negotiations with the industry resulting from the reduction of the original target.

So, this low cost for France is due to,

1. Excluding development costs (Not so in case of typhoon order)
2. This is the price for current version (2008), value is bound to increase with future upgrades.(the typhoon cost covers many upgrades)



Also, talking about official price estimates, here is what the Dutch MoD had to say on rafale and EF.

If the Netherlands would order Dassault Aviation Rafale or Eurofighter Typhoons, it would have to pay up to 207 million euros ($327 million) per Rafale aircraft, and at least 112.5 million euros ($178 million) per Typhoon aircraft, the country's defense ministry has communicated to the Parliament in The Hague.

All i want to say is the price scenario is extremely murky for both Rafale and EF, and assuming that Rafale will have a significant cost advantage over EF will be a bit erroneous.

As I said I am not joining the discussion, because I knew it would end up like this, active cancellation is not proven for Rafale, neither was PIMAWS ever integrated into EF! This discussion of you guys will lead nowhere when you not base it on available facts, that are cleared for the EF T3 and Rafale F3+ versions that are on offer for MMRCA and instead speculate about things that are not real.

Have fun guys but keep the discussions fair and don't get rude!

ROGER THAT!

 

[silentinksoldier]

I'd take the ef2000

however....i DO have concerns about that....firstly..we need strike fighters..not air superiority....coz the mki can pretty much knock the **** out of anything in the south asian skies right now.....

thing is.....soon we will be having few cheap workhorses...

with mig21 reitiring....

look at the airplane config....
mirage 2000, mig29smt
say 290 mkis
126-200 ef2000s
250-300 pakfa.....

we need need cheap fighters...to fill up the numbers.....this is gonna be a nightmare on maintanence

 

[sancho]

So, this low cost for France is due to,

1. Excluding development costs (Not so in case of typhoon order)

Yes, that's what I told you in my point 1 from the begining mate! Once again:

1. The costs for the developing country, or the partners are different to costs for normal export customers, because costs for R&D are not included!

The same is the case for the EF, because they paid the R&D before and that's why the fly away cost for partners, is also excluding development costs! Export customers will pay more than the $106 million each, but as I said it always depends on the numbers.

2. This is the price for current version (2008), value is bound to increase with future upgrades.(the typhoon cost covers many upgrades)

But you do know that Rafale is way more developed then EF at the moment right? Rafale is at it's 3rd upgrade already (MMRCA will get 3+ with even further upgrades), EF is still in integrating the 2nd only.

Also, talking about official price estimates, here is what the Dutch MoD had to say on rafale and EF.

Please, the Dutch wanted 85 fighters, there is no way that any fighter offered in that time would have been that costly, not even EF.

All i want to say is the price scenario is extremely murky for both Rafale and EF, and assuming that Rafale will have a significant cost advantage over EF will be a bit erroneous.

Depends on what you want to believe? I mean when you not even believe what your own sources shows...
The Rafale is cheaper than EF, but compared to the other contenders in MMRCA it is still expensive and not even I denied that. But it is a fact that it is way more useful for our forces than EF (at least from what we know so far) and that makes Rafale more worth the costs than EF.