Misc. PAF Stuff

[Quwa]

A while back I posted a picture of what may have been the JF-17's soon to be Helmet Mounted Display & Sight (HMDS) system. Well here is a clearer picture from the new PAF documentary:



It looks very similar to the South African Archer made by Carl Zeiss (branch of Denel). You can see the Carl Zeiss Archer here:

Welcome to Carl Zeiss Optronics GmbH

I assume it is in PAF's hands because the oxygen mask is MBU-5 which is in very wide use with PAF...and I can't really think of anyone else who uses MBU-5 + HMDS! I am unsure if this system will be used on the first 50 JF-17s, and suspect the 2nd batch will use a development of Archer - similar to Guardian. In fact...I wonder if there is possible low-key cooperation with Sweden and/or France?

Secondly...does it also seem like PAF is going to switch to a new standard g-force suit? The dummy's g-suit suit appears to be more fitted/tighter than what PAF normally wears...or what I've seen on other Pakistani dummies. Plus it seems that the PAF is slowly phasing MBU-5 out in favour for MBU-20...you can see examples in some K-8 & Mirage ROSE-I images.

 

[Keysersoze]

Hmm I find the comments regarding G-suits interesting. Do you think that the slimmer build of Pilot within the PAF would have a effect on ACM, bearing in mind that G-suits help during high - G manoevres?

 

[Quwa]

Hmm I find the comments regarding G-suits interesting. Do you think that the slimmer build of Pilot within the PAF would have a effect on ACM, bearing in mind that G-suits help during high - G manoevres?

Honestly speaking, I won't be able to answer that...blain2 would be a better source for that sort of stuff. However if you look at the dummy picture and compare it recent pictures of PAF pilots, the dummy's g-suit looks more fitted...and also appears to be wearing some sort of vest.

 

[Muradk]

Hmm I find the comments regarding G-suits interesting. Do you think that the slimmer build of Pilot within the PAF would have a effect on ACM, bearing in mind that G-suits help during high - G manoevres?

Weight does matter while pulling Gs. The slimmer the better.G suite does its part by restricting the draining of blood away from the brain during periods of high acceleration.

 

[Keysersoze]

Weight does matter while pulling Gs. The slimmer the better.G suite does its part by restricting the draining of blood away from the brain during periods of high acceleration.

Yes this is the reason why I was asking. Looking at the pictures of PAF pilots we have in the gallery, shows that the majority of the pilots look to be slimmer than say the majority of say the RAF or USAF. This would affect "standard" sizing of clothing like G-suits. And since a close fit would affect the amount of compression to the legs........

 

[Quwa]

While it is the PAF Misc. thread....some interesting notes from recent PAF documentaries & news articles:

1) PAF pilots appear to be using NVG.

2) Use of new touchscreen computers & large LCD displays by air surveillance and air defence branches.

3) Increasing net-centric concentration.

4) Development of avionics for next batch of JF-17.

 

[fatman17]

While it is the PAF Misc. thread....some interesting notes from recent PAF documentaries & news articles:

1) PAF pilots appear to be using NVG.

2) Use of new touchscreen computers & large LCD displays by air surveillance and air defence branches.

3) Increasing net-centric concentration.

4) Development of avionics for next batch of JF-17.

this is all good news - it is clear that the PAF has a lot of catching-up to do with the technology deficiency encountered during the pre- 9/11 years. the learning curve must be very steep for the PAF and the good part is that the PAF is giving a very good account of itself - speaks volumes about the professionalism within the PAF.

 

[Quwa]

Out of all the forces I think the PAF is an organization that would come out as completely international/NATO-standard very soon...may it be aircraft, radars, SAMs, personnel training, personnel equipment, etc. I guess it has a lot to do with its small size in comparison to PA, but it is still an achievement for a country like Pakistan.

There are few air forces in the world - and much fewer in the Third World - that could push for standard HMDS/JHMCS for 400+ fighters; robust air surveillance; push for extensive air defence; expansive logistic & auxiliary capability; and raise special forces infantry. In some ways the PAF is very unique as it has its own R&D & industrial-support wings. As an organization I can see it be a prime investor of new-age fuel under the condition of increased effeciency and pro-self reliance.

 

[JK!]

Mark Sien,

Do you know of any developments towards Air Defence within PAF and for that matter the Pakistan military?

I am particularly interested in the high altitude systems that were being considered.

 

[Quwa]

Mark Sien,

Do you know of any developments towards Air Defence within PAF and for that matter the Pakistan military?

I am particularly interested in the high altitude systems that were being considered.

Pakistan apparently ordered Spada-2000 from MBDA, but I am not fully convinced it is Spada-2000 - at least not in its advertised form. On one hand PAF is getting Aspide missiles and on the other interested in using MICA on JF-17. Why not just procure MICA-VL and build up a comprehensively large requirement to force France/MBDA to offer local production?

I suspect that the Spada-2000 'system' in general is being adopted, but with Aspide-2000 replaced with VL-MICA. The VL-MICA can be applied as a point-defence missile by PN; basic short-range SAM by PA & PAF; & a local development of it can turn it into a good medium-range SAM for land & sea. It is certainly possible to pull it off...ex. German IRIS-T SL & SLAMRAAM. We would probably need to agree with MBDA on not to export the missile as it could come into competition with Aster-15...no big deal as long as local requirements are fully met.

The Pakistani Forces are seeking a high altitude & long-range system, that is all I can whole heartedly tell you.

Personally speaking...given the sensetivity of this project, it is very likely that there will be a lot of local initiatives. So rather than importing a complete system like HQ-9, Pakistan will probably seek foreign cooperation in some very specific & difficult areas. You can see that Pakistan has some extensive missile/rocket R&D; it is probably working on radar-technology through the local AWACS program in co-op with China; I imagine networking, communication, etc, are no different.

The cost of these systems would be so high that I cannot see Pakistan risking its hand in another person...even in China to be honest. We will have cooperation and joint-ventures in individual aspects with countries like China, Ukraine, South Africa, Turkey & E.U. Do not doubt the goals set by our strategic thinkers...they are well on the contemporary & future route. It will take time, but the investment is definitely worth it...and the PAF can use 'time' to properly establish its net-centric set-up.

In general, this is what I'd expect from the system:

Range of 100-150km & altitude of 20-25km
Vertical-Launch type; usable on surface-ships as well.
Radar-guided; supported by land-based AESA variant of AWACS.
Data-link with constant feed/update capability; linked to satellite.
Emergency/doubling ABM-capability.
In league of Arrow & SAMP/T IMHO.

The initial induction of these systems will probably take place in the latter part of the AFFDP-2019 program...i.e. after 2015.

 

[JK!]

Thanks Mark a very informative post.

Another thing I've been wondering about is the "PKI" treatment that the Pakistani J10 variant FC20 will recieve.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Keysersoze]

Pakistan apparently ordered Spada-2000 from MBDA, but I am not fully convinced it is Spada-2000 - at least not in its advertised form. On one hand PAF is getting Aspide missiles and on the other interested in using MICA on JF-17. Why not just procure MICA-VL and build up a comprehensively large requirement to force France/MBDA to offer local production?

I suspect that the Spada-2000 'system' in general is being adopted, but with Aspide-2000 replaced with VL-MICA. The VL-MICA can be applied as a point-defence missile by PN; basic short-range SAM by PA & PAF; & a local development of it can turn it into a good medium-range SAM for land & sea. It is certainly possible to pull it off...ex. German IRIS-T SL & SLAMRAAM. We would probably need to agree with MBDA on not to export the missile as it could come into competition with Aster-15...no big deal as long as local requirements are fully met.

The Pakistani Forces are seeking a high altitude & long-range system, that is all I can whole heartedly tell you.

Personally speaking...given the sensetivity of this project, it is very likely that there will be a lot of local initiatives. So rather than importing a complete system like HQ-9, Pakistan will probably seek foreign cooperation in some very specific & difficult areas. You can see that Pakistan has some extensive missile/rocket R&D; it is probably working on radar-technology through the local AWACS program in co-op with China; I imagine networking, communication, etc, are no different.

The cost of these systems would be so high that I cannot see Pakistan risking its hand in another person...even in China to be honest. We will have cooperation and joint-ventures in individual aspects with countries like China, Ukraine, South Africa, Turkey & E.U. Do not doubt the goals set by our strategic thinkers...they are well on the contemporary & future route. It will take time, but the investment is definitely worth it...and the PAF can use 'time' to properly establish its net-centric set-up.

In general, this is what I'd expect from the system:

Range of 100-150km & altitude of 20-25km
Vertical-Launch type; usable on surface-ships as well.
Radar-guided; supported by land-based AESA variant of AWACS.
Data-link with constant feed/update capability; linked to satellite.
Emergency/doubling ABM-capability.
In league of Arrow & SAMP/T IMHO.

The initial induction of these systems will probably take place in the latter part of the AFFDP-2019 program...i.e. after 2015.

There is of course the BAMSE-23 also being acquired.

 

[JK!]

There is of course the BAMSE-23 also being acquired.

Where did that come from Key?

 

[Keysersoze]

Where did that come from Key?

Swedish system being acquired by the army.

Army Technology - Bamse RBS23 All-Weather Air Defence Missile

 

[JK!]

Swedish system being acquired by the army.

Army Technology - Bamse RBS23 All-Weather Air Defence Missile

I find it amusing that as soon as you mentioned the missile I went to the exact same website as you.

Is there a proper story mentioning Pakistans aquisition out there?