Discussion on HOBS capability for PAF.

[Quwa]

Raytheon’s has released the AIM-9X Block II. It’s the USA’s most advanced short range air-air missile. i would expect the AIM-9X Block I to be released to the PAF in the near-future. this has always been the US pattern with its arms sales. integration with the JFT, i agree may not be allowed but the AIM-9X would make the PAF Vipers more venomous.

Indeed, and there are other considerations too. The AIM-9X is readily compatible with the JHMCS sets used by PAF F-16s, but we can be rest assured that JF-17 isn't using JHMCS, but something else. I think it's probably an indigenous solution (with foreign assistance and COTS technology for support) built for PL-10 and/or MAA-1B. Of course, PAF may also give us a reverse swing and show off an indigenously developed HOBS WVRAAM, never know (especially when the HMD/S is developed in-house).

 

[Munir]

Raytheon’s has released the AIM-9X Block II. It’s the USA’s most advanced short range air-air missile. i would expect the AIM-9X Block I to be released to the PAF in the near-future. this has always been the US pattern with its arms sales. integration with the JFT, i agree may not be allowed but the AIM-9X would make the PAF Vipers more venomous.

Saheb, If the USA is reluctant to sell AMRAAM to Egypt, Irac then why would you expect us to get one? We had something to trade. Now I doubt we will have AIM9X. Cause there are even European nations that are so extremely close that do not get it. The USA is frontrunner when it comes to AIM9X. They are not going to risk that their major opponent gets even close with their eyes..

 

[aliyusuf]

... and show off an indigenously developed HOBS WVRAAM, never know (especially when the HMD/S is developed in-house).

This is something I have (recently) heard obscure references to from some of my ex-colleagues since the ACMI Software Simulator project days in the mid 90s.

 

[Quwa]

This is something I have (recently) heard obscure references to from some of my ex-colleagues since the ACMI Software Simulator project days in the mid 90s.

Well one has to admit, the PAF's been particularly quiet about the HMD/S and HOBS work regarding JF-17 (besides stating that the JF-17 will have the capability). This is in contrast to the wealth of information we got about JF-17 using SD-10, LS-6, C-802 or even Ra'ad and CM-400AKG.

If the HOBS solution was simply the PL-10, then we would have heard something, we haven't. Of course, systems such as MAA-1B or A-Darter would likely kept under-wraps, so as to prevent international (read: Indo-US) scrutiny and pressure. The lack of information thus far could easily point towards the South African-Brazilian solution.

On the other hand, we do know that the potential for Pakistan to acquire and/or develop the requisite technology is already there, e.g. Pakistan's various MoUs with Turkey, Pakistan's ties with China, Pakistan's approach to Brazil, residual links with Denel, Selex-Galileo, Saab, etc.

An indigenous 4th or 5th generation HOBS WVRAAM is a possibility, this is the country that came up with Ra'ad and Babur after all (in addition to parallel nuclear weapons programs). In fact, an indigenous solution may be the easiest (short of China) in the sense that it'd be the only program has no chance of being interrupted by foreign pressure.

 

[araz]

Well one has to admit, the PAF's been particularly quiet about the HMD/S and HOBS work regarding JF-17 (besides stating that the JF-17 will have the capability). This is in contrast to the wealth of information we got about JF-17 using SD-10, LS-6, C-802 or even Ra'ad and CM-400AKG.

If the HOBS solution was simply the PL-10, then we would have heard something, we haven't. Of course, systems such as MAA-1B or A-Darter would likely kept under-wraps, so as to prevent international (read: Indo-US) scrutiny and pressure. The lack of information thus far could easily point towards the South African-Brazilian solution.

On the other hand, we do know that the potential for Pakistan to acquire and/or develop the requisite technology is already there, e.g. Pakistan's various MoUs with Turkey, Pakistan's ties with China, Pakistan's approach to Brazil, residual links with Denel, Selex-Galileo, Saab, etc.

An indigenous 4th or 5th generation HOBS WVRAAM is a possibility, this is the country that came up with Ra'ad and Babur after all (in addition to parallel nuclear weapons programs). In fact, an indigenous solution may be the easiest (short of China) in the sense that it'd be the only program has no chance of being interrupted by foreign pressure.

Mark
Usman Ansari In his article a few months back pointed to the possibility of the sale of AIM9X as part of the sale of F16 fighters. The articles were to be sourced via Jordan avoiding the bashing from the congress. I believe this to be a plausible route. However for the JFT and any remaining platforms PAF wants HOBS facility on it will require another source so as to avoid any future complications. Whether this missile can be built in house with licence production will depend on the willingness of the supplying party and what we have to offer in return. It will either have to be money which we dont have or some other arrangement which is mutually beneficial. AAMs is a field we have not made any tangible visible progress in. To now expect PAF to come up with a 5th generation missile out of the blue seems unlikely.
Araz

 

[Arsalan]

I do not think there is significant need to opting for a single missiles for all our fighter platforms. I mean, if it happens it might be good as we will be standardizing the arsenal but if there are other better options available, in terms of operational parameters, costs, time frame, terms and conditions of delivery and operation, there is not so much harm even in going for two different missiles systems, one of US/Europe based platforms and other for Chinese/PAC based systems. When we are operating different jets from different sources I do not feel much problem in operating different missiles as well. Also, we cannot ignore, even though uniformity have its own benefits, sometimes you also need the element of surprise and a bit of uncertainty in your adversary’s mind.

 

[Chak Bamu]

It is best to keep armament-mix from different sources. Enemy should not be able to guess what it would face in an engagement.

Unless we can find development partners, I see little point in developing own A2A missiles. There could be better uses of funds.

 

[Quwa]

Mark
Usman Ansari In his article a few months back pointed to the possibility of the sale of AIM9X as part of the sale of F16 fighters. The articles were to be sourced via Jordan avoiding the bashing from the congress. I believe this to be a plausible route. However for the JFT and any remaining platforms PAF wants HOBS facility on it will require another source so as to avoid any future complications. Whether this missile can be built in house with licence production will depend on the willingness of the supplying party and what we have to offer in return. It will either have to be money which we dont have or some other arrangement which is mutually beneficial. AAMs is a field we have not made any tangible visible progress in. To now expect PAF to come up with a 5th generation missile out of the blue seems unlikely.
Araz

Indeed, but I meant to use the term 'indigenous' loosely. If the PAF does have its own program, then we can safely assume foreign assistance and technology is involved. That said, I wouldn't discount the possibility of locally built AAMs. We have to be mindful that AAMs are another munition, and if there's one thing we need a steady supply of in times of conflict, it is munitions. While buying a limited number may make sense for F-16 (for now, numbers will cross 100), the JF-17 will be a much more pervasive and widely used fighter, it'll carry the burden of operations. For that many aircraft it will be vital to have a large number of AAMs available, and when it comes to meeting large numbers, local production is a good route.

As for who Pakistan would work with on a hypothetical 5th gen WVRAAM, we won't know until we know. Besides China, none of Pakistan's partners would want the world to know that they're working with Pakistan (and vice-versa).

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Among the HOBS options what sort of guidance systems are we talking about?

 

[Kompromat]

Among the HOBS options what sort of guidance systems are we talking about?

Infrared/Image seeker with a thurst vectoring motor

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Infrared/Image seeker with a thurst vectoring motor

How vulnerable are infrared seekers of modern design to flares?Any idea?

 

[Kompromat]

How vulnerable are infrared seekers of modern design to flares?Any idea?

FLARES are not very effective against IR/IMAGE seekers lets say those found on IRST or AIM-9X. FLARES are effective against heat seeking missiles of the older generation.

 

[RAMPAGE]

How vulnerable are infrared seekers of modern design to flares?Any idea?

5th Gen IR seekers are able to distinguish between the flares and the actual target.

 

[Kompromat]

@RAMPAGE

Huzoor there is a 'generational' difference between older IRS and 5th gen IR/Image seekers. Both AESA with digital beam steering and Mechanically scanned radars are called 'radars' but are they the same in function?

 

[RAMPAGE]

@Aeronaut

Jaanab it seems that I didn't read your post clearly. lets say that you were sort of right.