Confirmed : PAF Negotiating For L-15 LIFT Aircrafts !

[Falgrine]

Somehow, this acquisition seems to link with recent AFB attack. Too much to say but not on an open forum.

@Falgrine

Sir, yes that must have added to the sense of urgency but i guess the acquisition was already in the process. Especially, when like for Israel, our "America" is also bestowing one favor after another upon us. Not that there is much to complain about it .

 

[Bilal9]

Based on Russian design , trainer and AG role ...

View attachment 1025501

I believe the JL-10 (export version designation L-15) was inspired by the Yak-130 and also the very similar Italian co-developed Alenia M-346 (used by Israeli AF for Advanced pilot training).

The Yaks have been serving us in BAF well. One can program these to fit and mimic the flight envelope of most Russian fighters like Mig-35, SU-30 etc. - for advanced pilot training.

The JL-10, is a supersonic aircraft (unlike the Yak-130) - with fly-by-wire flight controls and a glass cockpit, making it an excellent trainer for pilots who will next operate fourth and fifth-generation aircraft.

The JL-10 is being used to train pilot candidates for China’s fifth-generation fighter, the J-20. In 2020 the Shijiazhuang Flight Academy eliminated Intermediate Flight Training for pilot candidates by use of the JL-10.

Even so, because the JJ-9 (converted JJ-7) was introduced as an advanced trainer as the PLAAF reduced its fleet of third-generation fighters, it is likely that pilot candidates who train in the JJ-9 are assigned directly to operational units with fourth generation aircraft. Assuming that this is true, pilot candidates who train in the JJ-9 would complete 353 flight hours before piloting a JH-7, J-10S, or J-11BS.

It is unclear how the elimination of Intermediate Flight Training will affect the number of hours that these pilot candidates will fly, but it is likely that they will fly more than the traditional 123 hours because some training subjects from Intermediate Flight Training are likely to have been added to their course of Advanced Flight Training.

The Harbin Flight Academy also introduced the JL-10 to one of its brigades in the summer of 2020, so it is possible that it, too, has eliminated, or will soon eliminate, Intermediate Flight Training for that brigade.

The introduction of the JL-10 has thus enabled the PLAAF to shorten some fighter pilot candidates’ training programs by perhaps as much as one year.

And because the JL-10 is a fourth-generation aircraft itself, these new fighter pilots will likely require less time for conversion training in operational units with fourth-generation fighters, so, with officer training, it will probably take them little more than five years to complete their initial training.

The worst case scenario is that the L-15 dossier cut to the top of the pile due to the attack. However, I can confidently say that it was pretty high up the stack before that situation, but couldn't move due to fiscal constraints. Just imagine the fallout if they did order it back in 2018, and they ended up at Mianwali instead...

They use the L-15 in China (local PLAAF designation JL-10) to train advanced pilots for the J-20. Interesting that it is so capable.

https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Portals/10/CASI/documents/Research/PLAAF/2021-02-16%20Initial%20Fighter%20Pilot%20Training.pdf

 

[Zarvan]

I think PAF should start conversion squadrons. These jets divided into three fully operational squadrons. Which do all the role other jets does so pilots can get fully trained on how to operate in a squadron.

By the way the ones we would get will they have PESA radar or AESA Radar.

@Windjammer

Pure training

No, it can fully do a military role. Specially these beasts.

 

[Tomcats]

Unsure why the delay existed just a trainer could have ordered 18-36 trainers
long time ago Proactively instead of waiting endlessly till it is a "Must"

It seems delayed decision was hasted by recent outcomes in current year with loss of F7 trainers

The attack had absolutely nothing to do with this acquisition, planning for it has been taking place since well before the attack.

Well whatever is the case, I find it quite likely that the timeline has been moved up due to these losses. Those losses are definitely playing a role here though negotiations may have been in the works for a while. Assuming all this news about the L-15 is true.

L.15 purchase news are actually true. On a side note, FCU with K.8's is being moved from Paf Mianwali to Paf Risalpur. Alot of merging of squadrons and re-equipment of squadrons actively going on at the moment.

Well then...

 

[TheSolution]

L.15 purchase news are actually true. On a side note, FCU with K.8's is being moved from Paf Mianwali to Paf Risalpur. Alot of merging of squadrons and re-equipment of squadrons actively going on at the moment.

Is this related to the attack?

 

[Viper27]

Not necessarily. The PAF wanted to get a new LIFT since 2017-2018.

I'd rather say the real need now is that the majority -- if not near-entirety -- of the PAF fighter fleet will comprise of 4/4+-gen multirole fighters in a couple of years. Consequently, every fresh GDP will have to fly either a JF-17, J-10CE, or F-16, thus exposing inexperienced people to comparatively complex and capable systems vs. F-7P/PGs and non-upgraded Mirage III/5. The old F-7s and Mirages don't have TDLs, multimode radars capable of BVR, targeting pods, HMD/S or HMCS, ECM, SOWs, etc.

Earlier, I think the PAF was planning to train new pilots with everything they needed to know at the OCU level. In fact, not only did they raise a full OCU unit for the JF-17 via the JF-17B, but they also planned to provide each squadron with 1-2 JF-17Bs to continue training. So, there was a plan to get new pilots up to speed at two levels -- i.e., OCU and the frontline squadron.

However, after doing this for a couple of years, I think the fighter units sent feedback to AHQ about the need to provide more training at an earlier level, hence the need for a dedicated LIFT. I can see the logic: You have all this great equipment, but many of your aircrews don't have enough training to use most of it. So, you're sticking squadrons who should be focusing on familiarizing pilots with a specific plane to also work on other stuff, which slows those units down from having enough combat-ready flights.

In the lead up to pursuing the L-15, the PAF set up a new LIFT squadron and added it to the training regimen, placing it between FCU and OCU. This was to likely develop the processes so that when the day comes, adding something like the L-15 would be relatively smooth. It didn't happen earlier because, well, Pakistan doesn't have a lot of money to work with.

Would it not be more feasible to produce additional JF-17B’s to fulfil this requirement instead of procuring a new platform?

 

[altafahmed]

What happened to Hurjet ? Thought PAF was interested in that platform.

If PAF do buy them - lets hope they do a better job protecting them than they did with the F7s at PAF Mianwali ...

American Engine...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Would it not be more feasible to produce additional JF-17B’s to fulfil this requirement instead of procuring a new platform?

I think that was the original plan back in 2015. Then CAS -- ACM Sohail Aman -- wasn't enthusiastic about buying a LIFT and AHQ at the time felt that the JF-17B would be enough. They cited operational costs being a big issue. It's possible that the cost of flying the L-15B has gone down since then (it was just entering production 10 years ago). Or, potentially, they're now practically finding that the learning curve between the K-8 and JF-17B is still too high, hence the need for a LIFT to help bridge the middle.

I also think there may have been a change in strategy by the end of ACM Aman's tenure, i.e., to have GDPs to build a career around a specific platform rather than jump between them. Before, a GDP would start on the F-7P and then move onto the F-16 a few years later, for example. However, now, the PAF wants pilots to start training on the multirole fighters as early as possible and to stay on them for as long as possible; moving forward, you'll start and spend most of your career on one of the F-16, JF-17, or J-10. This way, you get people who develop lots of skill, experience, and familiarity with one platform, and you keep those gains instead of constantly resetting when you send someone to a new jet.

However, the F-16, JF-17, and J-10 aren't necessarily simple enough for someone coming off a K-8. They're all high-value assets that you both want to fully leverage (lots of tech in them), and to minimize accidents and mistakes. You still need 'experienced' aircrews, and as a result, something like the L-15B could provide that environment. Basically, once you're done on the L-15B, you get assigned to an F-16, JF-17, or J-10 unit.

BTW, there are some smaller logistics benefits of this approach too. For example, the JF-17B3 and J-10CE use a HMD/S that requires custom fitting; so, when the PAF invests in that kit for a pilot, it'd prefer that kit be used for as long as possible. You'd rather give that kit to a new pilot who'll use it for the next 7-10 years. However, if you're going to put someone new on the JF-17B3 or J-10CE, you'd want to make sure they're trained to use their fighter.

 

[GriffinsRule]

I think that was the original plan back in 2015. Then CAS -- ACM Sohail Aman -- wasn't enthusiastic about buying a LIFT and AHQ at the time felt that the JF-17B would be enough. They cited operational costs being a big issue. It's possible that the cost of flying the L-15B has gone down since then (it was just entering production 10 years ago). Or, potentially, they're now practically finding that the learning curve between the K-8 and JF-17B is still too high, hence the need for a LIFT to help bridge the middle.

I also think there may have been a change in strategy by the end of ACM Aman's tenure, i.e., to have GDPs to build a career around a specific platform rather than jump between them. Before, a GDP would start on the F-7P and then move onto the F-16 a few years later, for example. However, now, the PAF wants pilots to start training on the multirole fighters as early as possible and to stay on them for as long as possible; moving forward, you'll start and spend most of your career on one of the F-16, JF-17, or J-10. This way, you get people who develop lots of skill, experience, and familiarity with one platform, and you keep those gains instead of constantly resetting when you send someone to a new jet.

However, the F-16, JF-17, and J-10 aren't necessarily simple enough for someone coming off a K-8. They're all high-value assets that you both want to fully leverage (lots of tech in them), and to minimize accidents and mistakes. You still need 'experienced' aircrews, and as a result, something like the L-15B could provide that environment. Basically, once you're done on the L-15B, you get assigned to an F-16, JF-17, or J-10 unit.

BTW, there are some smaller logistics benefits of this approach too. For example, the JF-17B3 and J-10CE use a HMD/S that requires custom fitting; so, when the PAF invests in that kit for a pilot, it'd prefer that kit be used for as long as possible. You'd rather give that kit to a new pilot who'll use it for the next 7-10 years. However, if you're going to put someone new on the JF-17B3 or J-10CE, you'd want to make sure they're trained to use their fighter.

While it makes sense in a perfect world, I think bribes and kick backs are the primary driver here

 

[Windjammer]

Kuch bi na kaha....aur kahe bi gaye.....

@Trailer23

 

[fitpOsitive]

I have only mentioned one
Baqi 2 tum apney takye kay nichey rakh kar sou jaou.

yar aaptu badtamizi pe utar aatay hain. Masoom sa sawal tha mera...

 

[Windjammer]

Confirmed! Brazil is buying JF17.
Confirmed! Pakistan is buying SCAR.
Yeh laylo aik or confirmed.

yar aaptu badtamizi pe utar aatay hain. Masoom sa sawal tha mera...

Mainey tu koi badtamizi nai ki....albata aap ney sawal nai , confirm kiya tha masoomana tanz kay saath.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

While it makes sense in a perfect world, I think bribes and kick backs are the primary driver here

They're a reality, but they come in different ways... e.g., sometimes they'd concoct a requirement to get their cashback, or they'd insert themselves into a legitimate requirement. If there's corruption in this case, it'd be in the latter.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Mainey tu koi badtamizi nai ki....albata aap ney sawal nai , confirm kiya tha masoomana tanz kay saath.

Khuab hi dikhatay hain aap bhi.. hota kch bhi nahi hai.

 

[Signalian]

The worst case scenario is that the L-15 dossier cut to the top of the pile due to the attack. However, I can confidently say that it was pretty high up the stack before that situation, but couldn't move due to fiscal constraints. Just imagine the fallout if they did order it back in 2018, and they ended up at Mianwali instead...

Don’t you think that feasibility, testing, acquisition plans are usually in pipelines since months or years.

After all PAF tested many aircraft’s for feasibility study but acquired very few among those.