London Mosque burned down: EDL stamps found.

[Ahmad]

A kafir is a non muslim according to the muslims, there is nothing bad about it. i used to be called non believer by my christian friend and i didnt mind it at all, cuz according to her i was non believer.

 

[JonAsad]

@hinduguy,Jonasad

The word “kafir” (and variations of it) is mentioned in the Qur’an in five different senses:

1. Kufr al-tawheed: to reject the belief in the Oneness of God. The Qur’an says what means:

*{As to those who reject faith (kafaru), it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe }* (Al-Baqarah 2:6)

2. Kufr al-ni`mah: to lack gratefulness to God or to people. The Qur’an says what means:

*{Therefore remember Me, I will remember you, and be thankful to Me, and do not be ungrateful to Me (la takfurun)}* (Al-Baqarah 2:152)

*{[Pharaoh] said [to Moses]: … And you did [that] deed of yours which you did, and you are one of the ungrateful (kafireen)}* (Ash-Shu`araa’ 26:18-19)

3. Kufr at-tabarri: to disown/clear oneself from. The Qur’an says what means:

*{Indeed, there is for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him when they said to their people: “Surely we are clear of you (kafarna bekom).”}* (Al-Mumtahanah 60:4)

4. Kufr al-juhud: to deny. The Qur’an says what means:

*{When there comes to them that which they [should] have recognized, they deny (kafaru) it.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:89)

5. Kufr at-taghtiyah: to hide/bury something, like planting a seed in the ground. The Qur’an says what means:

*{The likeness of vegetation after rain, whereof the growth is pleasing to the husbandmen/tillers (kuffar.}* (Al-Hadid 57:20)

Exegesis (tafseer) scholars decide as to which meaning of the word “kufr/kafir” is meant in a specific verse based on the context. Therefore, not every use of the root “ka fa ra” means the rejection of faith. For example, when the Prophet (peace be upon him) warned some of his companions from becoming “kuffar” after his death, he did not mean that they would become disbelievers but rather that they would become ungrateful to Allah, for the blessing of unity, when they fight each other after his death.

Regarding whether to call non-Muslims “kuffar” or not, the answer is that we should call people the names that the Qur’an gave them. In the Qur’an, you will not find a single “O disbelievers” (“Ya Kuffar”, “Ya ayuhalathina kafaru”, or “Ya ayuhal-kafirun”) other than in the following two places:

1. In Hellfire, we seek refuge in Allah from it. The Qur’an says what means:

*{[Then it will be said]: “O ye who disbelieve (Ya ayuhalathina kafaru)! Make no excuses for yourselves this day.}* (At-Tahrim 66:7)

So, it is something that is said to them by Allah Almighty or by the angels, not by us.

2. In Surat Al-Kafirun (109) that you mentioned in your question. It says what means:

*{Say [O Muhammad]: “O ye that reject faith (al-Kafirun)! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship.”}*

But this surah is addressing Prophet Muhammad and therefore must be understood in its historical context. Allah is asking Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) to address a group of leaders from Makkah who offered him the following deal: That they all —including Muhammad— worship God for one year and then they all worship the idols for the next year, and so on. That is why Allah asked him to address them in this term “rejecters of faith” and to refuse to accept this kind of deal.

In the rest of the Qur’an, however, the Qur’anic style followed two principals:

1. To label certain sayings or actions to be sayings or actions of kufr (disbelief or rejection of faith), without labeling any specific group of people with that name and calling them with it. For example, the Qur’an says what means:

*{Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely God is the third [person] of the three. And there is no god but One God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve [reject]. Will they not then turn to Allah and ask His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary is but a messenger; messengers before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman.}* (Al-Ma’idah 5:73-75)

2. To distinguish clearly between idol-worshippers, on one hand, and believers in God and a Script that went through a phase of corruption, on the other hand. Allah called the later group only by the name “People of the Book.” For example, the Qur’an says what means:

*{Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you [people] back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the truth hath become manifest unto them. But, forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over all things.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:109)

*{It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering [of the forces]. Little did ye think that they would get out: And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But the [wrath of] Allah came to them from quarters from which they little expected [it], and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers, take warning, then, O ye with eyes [to see]!}* (Al-Hashr 59:2)

In today’s world, we should use the same term “People of the Book” with Christians and Jews, or call them Christians and Jews, if they wish to be called so, or simply call them “non-Muslims”.

As for dealing with non-Muslims, the general rule is mentioned in the verse that says what means:

*{Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of [your] religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness (birr) and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of [your] religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up [others] in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.}* (Al-Mumtahanah 60:8-9)

And notice that the word “birr” (translated as kindness) that Allah used in this context is the same word that is used for the type of kindness that a Muslim should show his/her parents as in birr al-walidain )kindness to parents)!!

Finally, it is fair enough before labeling any person as a “rejecter of faith” to make sure that he/she is clearly aware of that faith and what it entails. In my view, most people in today’s world did not reject the message because simply they are not aware of what Islam is. This is largely due to the biased international media and to Muslims themselves falling short to present their religion properly to the world. These uninformed people, again in my view, could only fall under the verse that says what means:

*{No laden soul can bear another's load, We never punish until we have sent a messenger.}* (Al-Israa’ 17:15)


Source:http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE

Thanks for your comprehensive input- i appreciate your effort-
For me i am getting old and bored with giving these sort of detailed repetitive explainations to tons of Kaffirs out there- -

 

[JonAsad]

I was not talking about that.. check the second section.. of wiki (the bits terrorized, slain, crucified,evil cursed)
Kafir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

secondly you seem to completely disregard the use of kafir in popular culture in muslim world, it is definitely a derogatory term, even if you dispute its origin.

Sir- instead of asking me to read wiki section again about (the bits terrorized, slain, crucified,evil cursed)-
Why dont you read Czars post on Term Kaffir and Quran-
In the end choice is your that you want to believe unreliable wiki or a sort of official page describing the difference-

Well on second part i dont agree with it- the popular definition on different websites also tend to reiterate my definitions-

 

[livingdead]

Sir- instead of asking me to read wiki section again about (the bits terrorized, slain, crucified,evil cursed)-
Why dont you read Czars post on Term Kaffir and Quran-
In the end choice is your that you want to believe unreliable wiki or a sort of official page describing the difference-

Well on second part i dont agree with it- the popular definition on different websites also tend to reiterate my definitions-

he described the definition, not what to do with them. I think quran is a big book and you have all sorts of verses there. I already agreed, wiki is unreliable, which is why I asked you, those specific verses, are they non existent in quran?

because you have read it, only refusal will suffice, I will take your word for it, and wont argue about that with you....sorry for being annoying..

Anyway, ignore what is mentioned in quran, most non muslims dont read it. What we are talking about is the daily usage of the word. There may be many offensive things in other holy books, but nobody is bothered because they are not in usage.

would you say that it has no negative connotation when used now a days?

 

[Thirdfront]

A kafir is a non muslim according to the muslims, there is nothing bad about it. i used to be called non believer by my christian friend and i didnt mind it at all, cuz according to her i was non believer.

And a rag/diaper head is only an arab/afgani with head-dress, negro/nigger is only a person with black skin, hijabi is only a muslim woman who wears hijab etc etc... so, nothing bad about them either?

 

[livingdead]

And a rag/diaper head is only an arab/afgani with head-dress, negro/nigger is only a person with black skin, hijabi is only a muslim woman who wears hijab etc etc... so, nothing bad about them either?

and d o t head for hindus.. although its not that hateful

 

[Thirdfront]

Sir- instead of asking me to read wiki section again about (the bits terrorized, slain, crucified,evil cursed)-
Why dont you read Czars post on Term Kaffir and Quran-
In the end choice is your that you want to believe unreliable wiki or a sort of official page describing the difference-

Well on second part i dont agree with it- the popular definition on different websites also tend to reiterate my definitions-

Well, it is not you who needs to agree with derogatory connotation, it is whom you call with that tag (kafir) get to define whether it is derogatory or not....

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

So Mr atheist bound by cultural purposes learn to deal with the insults towards your Buddhists/ Idol worshippers/ Kaffirs- like we Muslims deal with it every day on this forum and else where-

So some Western guys insult your faith, and you then see that as justification to turn around and insult Buddhists/Idol worshipers/Kaffirs?

Just recently Peregrine told me that "All kaffirs are ignorant".

And this forum has been rife with anti-Buddhist abuse since the Burma riots.

If you don't respect the faith of others, why do you expect them to respect yours.

 

[Thirdfront]

and d o t head for hindus.. although its not that hateful

Well it is quite offensive. Can you imagine why somebody might be calling hindus by that name when more than half hindus don't even have d.ot on their for head?

 

[livingdead]

Well it is quite offensive. Can you imagine why somebody might be calling hindus by that name when more than half hindus don't even have d.ot on their for head?

would you prefer bobblehead

 

[JonAsad]

Well, it is not you who needs to agree with derogatory connotation, it is whom you call with that tag (kafir) get to define whether it is derogatory or not....

One simply cannot change the word/ meaning of a language which some one with a different language dont like-
A derogatory slur is meant to be offensive- its definition cannot have conflicts-

We have a proper normal definition of Kaffir- which is absolutely not offensive-
Then we have people like you definition of a word in a language you cannot even read alphabets of-

 

[Thirdfront]

would you prefer bobblehead

Nope, do you? I just preferred to be called by my name.. and if somebody wants to talk to me but they don't know my name, I'll be OK if they call me how they would like to be called themselves in same situation...

One simply cannot change the word/ meaning of a language which some one with a different language dont like-
A derogatory slur is meant to be offensive- its definition cannot have conflicts-

We have a proper normal definition of Kaffir- which is absolutely not offensive-
Then we have people like you definition of a word in a language you cannot even read alphabets of-

I agree that meaning can't be changed. But one can STOP using it to call other people... and honestly, I don't care for the definition at all... once the term attains a racist connotation, anybody using that term will be a racist...

 

[KS]

@KS Then kindly tell EU to change their law to the same as Saudi...NO TOLERANCE towards anything...And NEVER to raise a voice against Saudi coz you people are supporting the same thing only under a diff banner!

Nice try trying to equate liberal societies in west to saudi barbaria,

Listen lady, intolerance of intolerance is not intolerance in itself.

Between crazy, unchecked freedom of speech that these western democracies right now afford to you and saudi barbaria style monarchy there is an entire spectrum. There is a difference between asking for equal rights and seeking to overthrow the current system of governance and imposing a alien system upon them.

The western countries give you muslims a shot at a good life that you may not get in your home countries..so how about respecting their laws, their form of governance (secular democracy) and try to live in harmony with their native way of life rather than seek to impose an alien,medieval form of governance called sharia upon them ? The western societies dont need you. You need them. Try to respect that.

because both of what you mentioned cant be changed, 1 is born a Nigger, he doesnt choose to...same as born a Pakistani....

It is ONLY derogatory because you guys feel it is! No one uses it in replacement of cusses! You dont go Hey you kaffir dont mess with my crap! Or people doing wrong go $hit not Kaffir!

As I said your labored explanation only sounds awkward. We both know in what context muslims use the word kaffir. Dont try too hard.

Plus next time when you confront a Black, call him a nigger to his face and tell me the reaction.

 

[JonAsad]

I agree that meaning can't be changed. But one can STOP using it to call other people... and honestly, I don't care for the definition at all... once the term attains a racist connotation, anybody using that term will be a racist...

Well the word has attained a racist connotation- and thats not the end of the road-

No Sir- We cannot simply STOP using the word instead we can try to explain- clear the misunderstanding- and you should listen-

And if we really want to racially abuse some one- we can simply use a word no one can dispute the meaning of- isnt it that simple-

So some Western guys insult your faith, and you then see that as justification to turn around and insult Buddhists/Idol worshipers/Kaffirs?

Just recently Peregrine told me that "All kaffirs are ignorant".

And this forum has been rife with anti-Buddhist abuse since the Burma riots.

If you don't respect the faith of others, why do you expect them to respect yours.

Some western guy insults my faith depending on the mood i will insult his faith or ignore- same goes for every other religion- no need to insult Budha if some Jesus Christ follower insults my religion- dont know where you have seen that happening-

Let me ask you a question- you complain about anti budhist abuses- and you keep mentioning the reason of these abuses- the Burma riots along in the same sentense- then you ask about respecting the faith if others in next line-

What do you expect your cultural budhist can kill Muslims and we cant even abuse you?-

 

[Thirdfront]

Well the word has attained a racist connotation- and thats not the end of the road-

No Sir- We cannot simply STOP using the word instead we can try to explain- clear the misunderstanding- and you should listen-

And if we really want to racially abuse some one- we can simply use a word no one can dispute the meaning of- isnt it that simple-




Some western guy insults my faith depending on the mood i will insult his faith or ignore- same goes for every other religion- no need to insult Budha if some Jesus Christ follower insults my religion- dont know where you have seen that happening-

Let me ask you a question- you complain about anti budhist abuses- and you keep mentioning the reason of these abuses- the Burma riots along in the same sentense- then you ask about respecting the faith if others in next line-

What do you expect your cultural budhist can kill Muslims and we cant even abuse you?-

What are you talking about? why can't you stop using it? what is there to explain? stop using it UNTIL misunderstanding is cleared and then use the words again. And for me and millions of people like me, there is not a single word with clearer racist connotation than kafir. there is no misunderstanding. Not like I am bothered, but it's kind of funny when they are subjected to reverse racism....