KOBANE: KURDISH LAST STAND...

[Frosty]

I've noticed a lot of Saudis on the internet are going denial about Ottoman history, they seem to have a beef with them because of what the House of Saud did about 200-300 years ago.

Anyway, Abbasid Caliph afterward didn't have any power so I wouldn't count them on this, they were corrupted and faced rebellions, lost Spain and the Mongol Siege etc. That time I think they were called Mamluk Turks in Anatolia, they controlled the Abbasid.

Spain was never Abbasid.

 

[A1Kaid]

Well, is that not because of the Bosphorus Strait nearby? If I ruled just Istanbul I theoretically speaking would rule on 2 continents yet my kingdom/empire would be very small. Anyway it's not an important discussion. The use of Empire before the Conquest of Constantinople just surprised me. Nothing else. I thought more about Kingdom or Sultanate. Arabic word for Kingdom.

So who are you picking to win in Kobani, ISIS or Kurds?

 

[al-Hasani]

So who are you picking to win in Kobani, ISIS or Kurds?

Mate, now you have made me curious and I am rather stubborn. Do you know which title the head of the Ottoman tribe had before the conquest of Istanbul? My impression is that the author of that book calls it an empire because the Ottoman ruler ruled land on 2 continents but that is obviously due to the nearby Bosphorus Strait. Sultan means king in Arabic and Khan is a Mongol title meaning military ruler. Now when the Ottomans conquered Istanbul, the capital of the Byzantine Empire (ruled by the Christian Byzantine Emperor) it is only logical to call the Ottoman ruler that too. Later the Ottomans added the title of Caliphs which they BTW not always used for long periods of time effectually.

ISIS. They already won IMO. But the West will probably prevent ISIS from gaining the entire control of the city and nearby area. There have been 100's of Ayn Al Arabs in Syria and Iraq. This is vastly overrated from a humanitarian point of view. If this was not a border town no such big fuss would have been made, IMO.

There are hardly any civilians left either.

 

[xenon54 out]

Mate, now you have made me curious and I am rather stubborn. Do you know which title the head of the Ottoman tribe had before the conquest of Istanbul? My impression is that the author of that book calls it an empire because the Ottoman ruler ruled land on 2 continents but that is obviously due to the nearby Bosphorus Strait. Sultan means king in Arabic and Khan is a Mongol title meaning military ruler. Now when the Ottomans conquered Istanbul, the capital of the Byzantine Empire (ruled by the Christian Byzantine Emperor) it is only logical to call the Ottoman ruler that too. Later the Ottomans added the title of Caliphs which they BTW not always used for long periods of time effectually.

ISIS. They already won IMO. But the West will probably prevent ISIS from gaining the entire control of the city and nearby area. There have been 100's of Ayn Al Arabs in Syria and Iraq. This is vastly overrated from a humanitarian point of view. If this was not a border town no such big fuss would have been made, IMO.

There are hardly any civilians left either.

The first rulers had the title ''Bey''

Bey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Then ''Khan''

Khan (title) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Later ''Sultan'' or ''Sultan Khan''

List of sultans of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Here is a detailed article about the Titles in Ottoman Empire.

Ottoman dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[al-Hasani]

The first rulers had the title ''Bey''

Bey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Then ''Khan''

Khan (title) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Later ''Sultan'' or ''Sultan Khan''

List of sultans of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Here is a detailed article about the Titles in Ottoman Empire.

Ottoman dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bey = Sheikh

Khan = Emir but I am not sure about this one.

Sultan = Sultan

Caliph = Caliph

Makes sense. The question is where the Emperor part comes into the picture? This must be the title the Ottoman Sultan CONQUERED from the Byzantine EMPEROR when Istanbul was captured.

So I think I have solved the mystery.

Spain was never Abbasid.

Correct.

The Umayyads and other Arab dynasties ruled Al-Andalus. Some Berber dynasties too. In fact we Arabs had a parallel Caliphate in the West (Al-Andalus) that the Turks, Iranians etc. were never a part of as they never reached/ruled such areas that far from the ME and Western Europe as a whole. The Muslims of the Maghreb and Al-Andalus considered the Umayyads as Caliphs not the Abbasi Caliph in Baghdad in Asia.

Also there were Arab dynasties in Central Northern Africa that were independent of those two fronts. (West and East). All quite interesting.

Córdoba, Toledo, Granada were arguably easily a match for Baghdad and other great cities of that time period if not even more developed on certain fronts. Architectural wise much more Arab heritage is intact in Al-Andalus (Spain and Portugal) than in Baghdad itself. Due to the Mongols. I think that Arabs contributed to 10-11 World UNESCO Heritage Sites in Spain alone.

@Full Moon @JUBA @Arabian Legend

 

[xenon54 out]

Makes sense. The question is where the Emperor part comes into the picture? This must be the title the Ottoman Sultan CONQUERED from the Byzantine EMPEROR when Istanbul was captured.
So I think I have solved the mystery.

Yep.

In addition to such secular titles, the Ottoman sultans became the Caliphs of Islam bearing the title Khalifeh ül-Rasul Rab al-A’alamin (i.e. Successor of the Prophet of the Lord of the Universe), starting with Mehmed II who transferred his capital to Constantinople (modern-day Istanbul) in 1453 and transformed the Ottoman state to an empire.

The titles in Ottoman Empire are a little bit confusing, in Turkey the most known title for Ottoman sultans is ''Padishah''

Padishah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Btw, i like this title most.

Padişah-i thalath şehireha-i Qostantiniyye, Edirne ve Hüdavendigâr, ül şehireyn-i Dimaşq ve Qahira, tamam Azerbayjan, Mağrib, Barqah, Kayravan, Haleb, ül-‘Iraq-i ‘Arab vel ‘Ajam, Basra, ül-dulan-i Lahsa, Rakka, Musul, Partiyye, Diyârbekir, Kilikiyye, ül vilâyatun-i Erzurum, Sivas, Adana, Karaman, Van, Barbariyye, Habeş, Tunus, Trablus-i Garb, Şam, Kıbrıs, Rodos, Girit, ül vilâyet-i Mora, ül Bahr-i Sefid vel Bahr-i Siyah ve i-swahil, Anadolu, Rumeli, Bagdâd, Kurdistân, Yunanistan, Türkistan, Tatariyye, Çerkesyye, ül mintaqateyn-i Kabarda, Gürjistan, ül-Deşt-i Qipçaq, tamam ül-mamlikat-i Tatar, Kefe ve tamam ül-etraf, Bosna, ül şehir ve hisar-i Belgrat, ül vilâyet-i Sırbistan bil tamam ül-hisareha ve şehireha, tamam Arnavut, tamam Eflak ve Boğdan, ve tamam ül-mustamlak vel-hududeha, ve muteaddit mamalekat ve şehireha.



Translation:

Emperor of The Three Cities of Constantinople, Adrianople and Bursa, and of the Cities of Damascus and Cairo, of all Azerbaijan, of the Magreb, of Barka, of Kairouan, of Aleppo, of the Arabic and the Persian Iraq, of Basra, of Al-Hasa strip, of Ar Raqqah, of Mosul, of Diyarbakır, of Cilicia, of the provinces of Erzurum, of Sivas, of Adana, of Karaman, Van, of Barbary, of Abyssinia, of Tunisia, of Algiers, of Tripoli, of Damascus, of Cyprus, of Rhodes, of Crete, of the province of Morea, of the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea and also their coasts, of Anatolia, Rumelia, Baghdad, Kurdistan, Greece, Turkistan, Tartary, Circassia, of the two regions of Kabarda, of Georgia, of the Steppe of Kypchaks, of the whole country of the Tatars, of Kefe and of all the neighboring regions, of Bosnia, of the City and Fort of Belgrade, of the province of Serbia, with all the castles and cities, of all Albania, of all Eflak and Bogdania, as well as all the dependencies and borders, and many other countries and cities.

 

[al-Hasani]

Yep.




The titles in Ottoman Empire are a little bit confusing, in Turkey the most known title for Ottoman sultans is ''Padishah''

Padishah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Btw, i like this title most.

Padişah-i thalath şehireha-i Qostantiniyye, Edirne ve Hüdavendigâr, ül şehireyn-i Dimaşq ve Qahira, tamam Azerbayjan, Mağrib, Barqah, Kayravan, Haleb, ül-‘Iraq-i ‘Arab vel ‘Ajam, Basra, ül-dulan-i Lahsa, Rakka, Musul, Partiyye, Diyârbekir, Kilikiyye, ül vilâyatun-i Erzurum, Sivas, Adana, Karaman, Van, Barbariyye, Habeş, Tunus, Trablus-i Garb, Şam, Kıbrıs, Rodos, Girit, ül vilâyet-i Mora, ül Bahr-i Sefid vel Bahr-i Siyah ve i-swahil, Anadolu, Rumeli, Bagdâd, Kurdistân, Yunanistan, Türkistan, Tatariyye, Çerkesyye, ül mintaqateyn-i Kabarda, Gürjistan, ül-Deşt-i Qipçaq, tamam ül-mamlikat-i Tatar, Kefe ve tamam ül-etraf, Bosna, ül şehir ve hisar-i Belgrat, ül vilâyet-i Sırbistan bil tamam ül-hisareha ve şehireha, tamam Arnavut, tamam Eflak ve Boğdan, ve tamam ül-mustamlak vel-hududeha, ve muteaddit mamalekat ve şehireha.



Translation:

Emperor of The Three Cities of Constantinople, Adrianople and Bursa, and of the Cities of Damascus and Cairo, of all Azerbaijan, of the Magreb, of Barka, of Kairouan, of Aleppo, of the Arabic and the Persian Iraq, of Basra, of Al-Hasa strip, of Ar Raqqah, of Mosul, of Diyarbakır, of Cilicia, of the provinces of Erzurum, of Sivas, of Adana, of Karaman, Van, of Barbary, of Abyssinia, of Tunisia, of Algiers, of Tripoli, of Damascus, of Cyprus, of Rhodes, of Crete, of the province of Morea, of the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea and also their coasts, of Anatolia, Rumelia, Baghdad, Kurdistan, Greece, Turkistan, Tartary, Circassia, of the two regions of Kabarda, of Georgia, of the Steppe of Kypchaks, of the whole country of the Tatars, of Kefe and of all the neighboring regions, of Bosnia, of the City and Fort of Belgrade, of the province of Serbia, with all the castles and cities, of all Albania, of all Eflak and Bogdania, as well as all the dependencies and borders, and many other countries and cities.

Those royal titles are always ridiculously long but still interesting. I remember looking at the Spanish King's official royal titles. I mean there was everything from King of Armenia, Jerusalem etc. Extremely long too.

Where is the title of Caliph? Caliph is the highest title a Muslim can have. It is like Pope among Catholics. Other than Pope, Emperor.

Today only Japan has an Emperor.

This must be before Selim I then.

 

[forcetrip]

Turkey 'to let US use bases' against Islamic State

Turkey has agreed to let the US use its military bases in the campaign against Islamic State militants, US National Security Adviser Susan Rice says.
Ms Rice said the US welcomed the new agreement, which included use of the Incirlik air base in Turkey's south.
The US is leading air strikes against IS, which has seized large parts of Iraq and Syria in recent months.
Turkey shares a border with both countries, but has so far ruled out any ground operation of its own.
Speaking to US broadcaster NBC, Ms Rice said Turkey had recently agreed to let the US use Turkish bases and territory "to train moderate Syrian opposition forces" and "engage in activities inside of Iraq and Syria".

"That's the new commitment, and one that we very much welcome," she added.
In recent days, IS fighters have advanced against the Syrian town of Kobane, which has a border crossing point with Turkey.
The US has been leading a coalition providing air support to Kurds battling IS fighters around Kobane.
Turkey has ranged its military forces on the border but has so far ruled out any ground operation on its own, and has refused to allow Kurds in Turkey to cross the border to fight.
Turkey has been reluctant to get involved militarily, partly because it is concerned about arming the Kurdish forces fighting IS militants. Turkey fought a long civil war with its Kurdish minority.
Since the IS offensive against Kobane began in mid-September, some 500 people have been killed and up to 200,000 have fled across the border into Turkey.

Meanwhile, officials say the police chief of Iraq's Anbar province, where IS fighters are also advancing, has been killed by a roadside bomb.
Major General Ahmed Saddag was killed when the bomb targeted his convoy near the provincial capital Ramadi.
Anbar officials have appealed for military help, saying that the province could fall to IS militants.
IS says it aims to establish a "caliphate", a state ruled by a single political and religious leader according to Islamic law, or Sharia.
It has become known for brutal tactics, including mass killings, abductions of members of religious and ethnic minorities, and the beheadings of soldiers and journalists.

BBC News - Turkey 'to let US use bases' against Islamic State

 

[xenon54 out]

Where is the title of Caliph? Caliph is the highest title a Muslim can have. It is like Pope among Christians. Other than Pope Emperor.

Well, even though the Sultans became Caliphs at some point they never used the title Caliph in official adress, also people of that time, at least in Turkish regions didnt call them Caliph but ''Padishah'' or ''Sultan Kahn''.

 

[al-Hasani]

Well, even though the Sultans became Caliphs at some point they never used the title Caliph in official adress, also people of that time, at least in Turkish regions didnt call them Caliph but ''Padishah'' or ''Sultan Kahn''.

What? So what's all about that Caliph fuss/Arab Revolt etc.?! You should just have given us the Caliph title and then you could have kept all those other titles.

 

[BronzePlaque]

of the Arabic and the Persian Iraq

Thats the first time i hear that..Whats that? @al-Hasani ? Do they refer to Shiite part of Iraq may be?

 

[xenon54 out]

What? So what's all about that Caliph fuss/Arab Revolt etc.?! You should just have given us the Caliph title and then you could have kept all those other titles.

Ok i dont wanna tell you something wrong but as far as i know they didnt used the title Caliph often, at least im sure the people didnt called them Caliph.

Thats the first time i hear that..Whats that? @al-Hasani ? Do they refer to Shiite part of Iraq may be?

Most probably yes.

 

[al-Hasani]

Thats the first time i hear that..Whats that? @al-Hasani ? Do they refer to Shiite part of Iraq may be?

There is an region in Iran called Iraq. It's east of the actual Iraq. East of the Zagros Mountains. Zagros Mountains form the natural barrier of Iraq-Iran or parts of the border if I recall.

It's not Southern Iraq. Southern Iraq borders modern-day KSA/Kuwait directly.

@BronzePlaque

See link;

Persian Iraq (ancient region, Middle East) -- Encyclopedia Britannica

 

[xenon54 out]

See link;
Persian Iraq (ancient region, Middle East) -- Encyclopedia Britannica

Seems like its referring to the border region in this map.

 

[BronzePlaque]

There is an region in Iran called Iraq. It's east of the actual Iraq. East of the Zagros Mountains. Zagros Mountains form the natural barrier of Iraq-Iran or parts of the border if I recall.

It's not Southern Iraq. Southern Iraq borders modern-day KSA/Kuwait directly.

@BronzePlaque

See link;

Persian Iraq (ancient region, Middle East) -- Encyclopedia Britannica

"...traditionally considered to mark the border between these two entities. The second region, lying to the east of Arabian Iraq and separated from it by the Zagros Mountains, was called foreign (i.e., Persian) Iraq ( ʿIrāq ʿAjamī) and was more or less identical with ancient Media or the Umayyad and ʿAbbāsid province of... "

Now i understand...thanks mate