KOBANE: KURDISH LAST STAND...

[A1Kaid]

1299-1922 to be precisely.

Wasn't the Ottoman empire officially abolished by Mustafa Kemal in 1923? I know the Ottoman Sultan Mehmed VI was dethroned in Nov. 1922. Hence, I always went by 1923.

 

[xenon54 out]

Wasn't the Ottoman empire officially abolished by Mustafa Kemal in 1923? I know the Ottoman Sultan Mehmed VI was dethroned in Nov. 1922. Hence, I always went by 1923.

Republic was founded in 1923, the official end of Empire is 1922.

The occupation of Constantinople and İzmir led to the establishment of a Turkish national movement, which won the Turkish War of Independence (1919–22) under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal Pasha (later known as Mustafa Kemal Atatürk). The sultanate was abolished on 1 November 1922, and the last sultan, Mehmed VI (reigned 1918–22), left the country on 17 November 1922. The Grand National Assembly of Turkey declared the Republic of Turkey on 29 October 1923. The caliphate was abolished on 3 March 1924.

Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[al-Hasani]

^ Ottoman Empire lasted 624 years not 400 years, from 1299-1923.

I was taking about the Caliphate. The Ottoman Sultan first became the Caliph somewhere around 1519 or something. Ottomans ruled small parts of Turkey for the first 150 years if I am not mistaken. The rise of the Ottoman Empire first began after the Conquest of Constantinople or Istanbul in 1453. Those dates are just on top of my head.

List of Caliphs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EDIT: Selim I became the first official Ottoman Caliph in 1517 when the Abbasid Caliph of Cairo recognized him.

So 400 years is about right.

 

[xenon54 out]

I was taking about the Caliphate. The Ottoman Sultan first became the Caliph somewhere around 1519 or something. Ottomans ruled small parts of Turkey for the first 150 years if I am not mistaken. The rise of the Ottoman Empire first began after the Conquest of Constantinople or Istanbul in 1453. Those dates are just on top of my head.

List of Caliphs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EDIT: Selim I became the first official Ottoman Caliph in 1517 when the Abbasid Caliph of Cairo recognized him.

So 400 years is about right.

You remember correctly.

 

[al-Hasani]

The Ottoman Empire was at their highest in 1683 shortly before the Battle of Vienna. At that point the Ottoman Empire was 5,200,000 km².

Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From 1453 until 1683 the Ottomans were the eminent power in the Balkans, Anatolia, Levant, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Hijaz and parts of Western North Africa as we can all see on this map.

Moreover the Ottomans also had allies such as the Crimean Tatars and others. France if I am not mistaken. But this was the case with all Caliphates. They had enemies and allies and also vassal states.

The trading ports etc. Maps changed often too. Sometimes there were rebellions and other periods were more calm. Sometimes there was infighting and sometimes not. Like all other empires/Caliphates basically if we read history.

 

[A1Kaid]

I was taking about the Caliphate. The Ottoman Sultan first became the Caliph somewhere around 1519 or something. Ottomans ruled small parts of Turkey for the first 150 years if I am not mistaken. The rise of the Ottoman Empire first began after the Conquest of Constantinople or Istanbul in 1453. Those dates are just on top of my head.

List of Caliphs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EDIT: Selim I became the first official Ottoman Caliph in 1517 when the Abbasid Caliph of Cairo recognized him.

So 400 years is about right.

I was taking about the Caliphate.

Sultan Selim I (1512-1520) was the first Ottoman Sultan to use the title Caliph. So if you are going by that then okay it is about 410 years as "caliphate", but it really is just a nominal distinction, considering Mehmed II was viewed by many at the time a Caliph.

Since the 15th century, the Caliphate was claimed by the Turkish Ottoman sultans beginning with Fatih Sultan Mehmed. They gradually came to be viewed as the de facto leaders and representatives of the Islamic world. According to Barthold, the first time the title of "Caliph" was used as a political instead of symbolic religious title by the Ottomans was the peace treaty with Russia in 1774, when the Empire retained moral authority on territory whose sovereignty was ceded to the Russian Empire.

Selim took the title of Caliph of Islam, although Ottoman rulers beginning with Fatih Sultan Mehmed (Mehmed II) had already begun to claim caliphal authority. He was also granted the title of "Khâdim ül Haramain ish Sharifain" (Servant of the Holy Cities of Mecca and Medina) by the Sharif of Mecca in 1517.

Selim I - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The rise of the Ottoman Empire first began after the Conquest of Constantinople or Istanbul in 1453.

The Ottoman dynasty was already an empire even before conquest of Constantinople in 1453. In the first 150 years they had already conquered parts of eastern Europe. In 1350, Ottomans had begun making advances into eastern Europe, in 1362 they captured Edirne, 1389 Battle of Kosovo, and 1396 capture of Nikopol which completed Ottoman conquest of much of Thrace and Greece.

EDIT: Selim I became the first official Ottoman Caliph in 1517 when the Abbasid Caliph of Cairo recognized him.

That's true Sultan Selim I conquered Egypt in 1517 and defeated the Abassid/Mamluk "caliphate". Abassid Caliph Al-Mutawakkil III surrendered his title and possessions to Sultan Selim.

 

[al-Hasani]

Sultan Selim I (1512-1520) was the first Ottoman Sultan to use the title Caliph. So if you are going by that then okay it is about 410 years as "caliphate", but it really is just a nominal distinction, considering Mehmed II was viewed by many at the time a Caliph.




Selim I - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




The Ottoman dynasty was already an empire even before conquest of Constantinople in 1453. In the first 150 years they had already conquered parts of eastern Europe. In 1350, Ottomans had begun making advances into eastern Europe, in 1362 they captured Edirne, 1389 Battle of Kosovo, and 1396 capture of Nikopol which completed Ottoman conquest of much of Thrace and Greece.



That's true Sultan Selim I conquered Egypt in 1517 and defeated the Abassid/Mamluk "caliphate".

They were not an Empire in the first 150 years but a regional power. Empires cannot be this small. Look at the map I posted again.

I go with the official/formal dates because otherwise it will be a mess as there were many claimants for the Caliphate throughout time. At some points in Islamic history persons who were not actual Caliphates were more powerful yet they are not recognized as rulers but the actual Caliphs. That's as it should be IMO.

 

[Saho]

I've noticed a lot of Saudis on the internet are going denial about Ottoman history, they seem to have a beef with them because of what the House of Saud did about 200-300 years ago.

Anyway, Abbasid Caliph afterward didn't have any power so I wouldn't count them on this, they were corrupted and faced rebellions, lost Spain and the Mongol Siege etc. That time I think they were called Mamluk Turks in Anatolia, they controlled the Abbasid.

 

[A1Kaid]

They were not an Empire in the first 150 years but a regional power. Empires cannot be this small. Look at the map I posted again.

I go with the official/formal dates because otherwise it will be a mess as there were many claimants for the Caliphate throughout time. At some points in Islamic history persons who were not actual Caliphates were more powerful yet they are not recognized as rulers but the actual Caliphs. That's as it should be IMO.

They were not an Empire in the first 150 years but a regional power. Empires cannot be this small. Look at the map I posted again.

Wrong, empire doesn't have to be a specific size threshold to be considered an empire. Technically, you can have a empire made up of small overseas colonies ruled by a small country.

Definition: The term "empire" is derived from the Latin imperium (power, authority). Politically, an empire is a geographically extensive group of states and peoples (ethnic groups) united and ruled by a central authority either by a monarch (emperor, empress) or an oligarchy.

Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, after 1453 the Ottoman Empire gained legitimacy and global standing around the world after it conquered Constantinople, but it was still an empire before 1453, most well-researched historians agree (Caroline Finkel author of "Osman's Dream", Erik Zürker, Dr. Zilfi, etc) all leading historians on the Ottoman empire use the word "empire" to describe it even before 1453. This isn't even a subject of historical debate.

Byzantine Empire 1270.

Here's a map of the Byzantine empire in 1400, it only held onto a few small territories in Thrace and the city of Constantinople. It is technically considered an empire because it has an Emperor who holds an extensive group of states and peoples, as small as they maybe.

 

[xenon54 out]

Here's a map of the Byzantine empire in 1400, it only held onto a few small territories in Thrace and the city of Constantinople. It is technically considered an empire because it has an Emperor who holds an extensive group of states and peoples, as small as they maybe.

Thats right as far as i know a Empires definition is not the size.

 

[al-Hasani]

Wrong, empire doesn't have to be a specific size threshold to be considered an empire. Technically, you can have a empire made up of small overseas colonies ruled by a small country.


Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, after 1453 the Ottoman Empire gained legitimacy and global standing around the world.

View attachment 129040
Byzantine Empire 1270.


View attachment 129041
Here's a map of the Byzantine empire in 1400, it only held onto a few small territories in Thrace and the city of Constantinople. It is technically considered an empire because it has an Emperor who holds an extensive group of states and peoples, as small as they maybe.

But the Ottoman Sultan was not an Emperor yet until the conquest of Constantinople. Or correct me if I am wrong. Sultan in Arabic means king. Anyway you get my point with what I meant with Empire. What I wrote initially about the rise of Ottoman power and dismiss is correct and I was also correct that they first officially gained the Caliphate in the early 1500's.

All empires I know were of a much bigger size geographically speaking but technically you could have an empire the size of Denmark but I don't recall such cases on top of my head though.

 

[A1Kaid]

But the Ottoman Sultan was not an Emperor yet until the conquest of Constantinople. Or correct me if I am wrong. Sultan in Arabic means king. Anyway you get my point with what I meant with Empire. What I wrote initially about the rise of Ottoman power and dismiss is correct and I was also correct that they first officially gained the Caliphate in the early 1500's.

All empires I know were of a much bigger size geographically speaking but technically you could have an empire the size of Denmark but I don't recall such cases on top of my head though.

I am just telling you what leading historians on the Ottoman empire have written, read Caroline Finkel "Osman's Dream", it is arguably one of the best books written on the Ottoman empire in the English language. It will explain to you a lot of Ottoman history in great detail, names, dates, events, themes, legality, policies, etc.

By 1362 max the Ottoman's technically had already become a two-continent empire.

 

[al-Hasani]

I am just telling you what leading historians on the Ottoman empire have written, read Caroline Finkel "Osman's Dream", it is arguably one of the best books written on the Ottoman empire in the English language. It will explain to you a lot of Ottoman history in great detail, names, dates, events, themes, legality, policies, etc.

Does she write that the Ottoman Empire was an Empire already before the conquest of Constantinople? Strange because in terms of territory controlled you could hardly call it more than a kingdom and in terms of titles then the Ottoman rulers probably used the Arabic Sultan and Turkic/Mongol Khan.

I will give it a try. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[A1Kaid]

Does she write that the Ottoman Empire was an Empire already before the conquest of Constantinople? Strange because in terms of territory controlled you could hardly call it more than a kingdom and in terms of titles then the Ottoman rulers probably used the Arabic Sultan and Turkic/Mongol Khan.

I will give it a try. Thanks for the recommendation.

Here's a screen shot I took of page #128 of "Osman's Dream". You can read that even as early as 1402 (Battle of Ankara), historians like Caroline Finkel already consider the Ottomans an "empire". By the reign of Sultan Murad I and Bayezid the Ottomans had already become an empire and meet the definition of an empire. They held territories both in Europe and Asia and ruled of ethnically diverse people under the rule of a central authority the Sultan.

 

[al-Hasani]

Here's a screen shot I took of page #128 of "Osman's Dream". You can read that even as early as 1402 during the reign of Sultan Bayezid the Ottomans had already become an empire and meet the definition of an empire. They held territories both in Europe and Asia and ruled of ethnically diverse people under the rule of a central authority the Sultan.

View attachment 129077

Well, is that not because of the Bosphorus Strait nearby? If I ruled just Istanbul I theoretically speaking would rule on 2 continents yet my kingdom/empire would be very small. Anyway it's not an important discussion. The use of Empire before the Conquest of Constantinople just surprised me. Nothing else. I thought more about Kingdom or Sultanate. Arabic word for Kingdom.