Kayani feared religious right’s backlash against him: Athar Abbas

[FunkyGen]

dont be silly

they are our citizens. they are in the bad neighborhood without their choice

your culprits are those right winged religious organisations that are receiving yearly funds in the tune of tens of millions of dollars from Saudis in order to radicalize the public and breed fresh blood for Taliban

I hear both argument @Hyperion .. I hear with Gen Athar is saying... but Salala and OBL operation didnt help us in any bit. and not to forget the RD saga as well.
our major failing is in southern Punjab, Jhang and karachi where LeJ infestation compounded up to the point that it provided men, material and space for high level attacks on GHQ and military bases.
I dont know how much Kyani saved himself from the scorn of the right wing bigots by not launching NW operation because he and his fores were the constant target of all right wing parties and the media. for people like Hamid Mir and Jamat Islami, he was an American tout ...for continuing the fight that Gen Musharraf started.

yes there were some lost opportunities and the clueless politicians and general public also played in this indecisiveness to go all out for terrorists but there was also the question of logistics and resources when it had already committed itself in malakund, sawat, south waziristsan etc.

the real war that still hasnt happened yet is in our cities where the terrorists are sitting in their madrassahs and red mosques and openly taunting the state.

North Waziristan successes will be only symbolic. our targets already moved out thanks to Nawaz sherif refusal and our military's lack of will to strike them when they were stranded in snow.

My point remains, why did the tribals help them. They knew foreigners were there, why didn't they expel them?
Why did they allow their children to be born?
Scared? Well, how about being scared of clusters?
And how can you forget the FACT that majority of the militants throughout the country who actually have the will to take Pakistan head on have something to do with tribals or Pushtoons in general.....
Recently an explosives truck was found with Swatis in it, i mean don't they have OTHER ethnicities?
As far as cities go i've read members saying that slums housing Afghanis are the real cause of the mess cause they send their children to madrassas rather than proper schools which provide excellent human sources for the miscreants.... AGAIN..... TRIBALS ARE INVOLVED!
I've rarely seen Punjabi or heck anything other than these people causing trouble..... remember Chechnya?
Others just aren't the bang for the buck for our Arab friends.

 

[fatman17]

as for ather abbas, i think he is telling the truth. he was one of the better ISPR chiefs we've had in a long time.

 

[FunkyGen]

as for ather abbas, i think he is telling the truth. he was one of the better ISPR chiefs we've had in a long time.

With due respect this is not the time for his rants....

 

[foxbat]

Funnily enough, while they are in the driving seat, the COAS of Pakistan is treated as Rambo incarnated. Once out of power, the skeletons start stumbling out. A lot of Pakistan's COAS have met not a very flattering fate post retirement.

 

[EyanKhan]

My point remains, why did the tribals help them. They knew foreigners were there, why didn't they expel them?
Why did they allow their children to be born?

The funny thing is the righteous and just ISI and Pakistan military was involved in this as well , why not wish the same for them then?

 

[Icarus]

Should we be so hasty and unequivocal in passing judgement on Kayani? I agree that Gen.Shareef has been very decisive in initiating and handling this operation.

But can (or should) we overlook the context in which Gen.Kayani had to function? The civilian govt in his time was even more "lame-duck" and tainted in all respects than this present one. Then all the controversy over the unearthing and eventual destruction of OBL in Pakistan had cast a serious shadow to the extent of even causing demoralisation in the security estt. Add to that; USA was even more prickly towards Pakistan than now (presently they seem to be more be benignly disposed).
Kayani had "to hold the tiller" through that more difficult time, he probably was more sanguine about his (and his forces) abilities to take all that head-on. Should he not; then get some lee-way in this regard?

@Icarus; Sir I will again trouble you for your views on this, if I may be permitted to.

Agreed, Kiyani's reluctance in conducting the NWA Op cannot be chalked to a lack of commitment or courage, it was simply because he was looking for an opportune moment to trigger what would undoubtedly be a conflict that would displace many people and cause much loss of life and infrastructure. In any such situation, you have to see if the situation is suited for triggering an operation. As I said in another thread, we have to keep in mind that at the time, two of the nation's largest political parties, the PTI and PMLN opposed the Op and the population was also quite averse to the idea, the operation was likened to American slavery and what not. Under such circumstances, starting an operation would have favoured the Taliban and half achieved their objectives already.
When remembering Kiyani, I think it is very unfair to overlook the dozen or so operations that he did command with exemplary distinction which proved to be invaluable in breaking the TTP's back in Pakistan and drove them from 100km of Islamabad to far from the Durand Line.
The government at the time, as you have mentioned was also quite a challenge, they had the stomach for a war but lacked the money needed to finance it and the mass appeal needed to sustain it. So Kiyani had all this to contend with when taking a decision.

One of the worst Generals in history of Pakistani military. Gen Shareef is shoving a big danda in Nawaz and his terrorists rear ends.

I disagree, the man faced one of the most difficult time this nation has been through and the fact that we got through alright goes a long way in floating this man's boat.

Let me put it bluntly. . Kayani was a pu**y...caused imense loss to pakistani state.

Please elaborate and avoid expletives, the man was our top soldier after all and your personal likes or dislikes aside, he deserves respect.

 

[Icarus]

My point remains, why did the tribals help them. They knew foreigners

The MMA govt greatly patronized the Taliban flowing in after the American offensive in Afghanistan, the tribals never really had a choice, their experience with foreign elements dated back to the Afghan Jihad back when they were the blue-eyed babies of the world and they responded to them keeping to that image in mind.

were there, why didn't they expel them?

Initially because they were seen as "Mujahideen" and later because they were too powerful to evict.

Why did they allow their children to be born?

When the Taliban were top-dogs, the tribals had to live anyway possible, if a Talib asked for someone's daughter, they had two options, either marry her or wait for her to be kidnapped, raped and returned pregnant.

And how can you forget the FACT that majority of the militants throughout the country who actually have the will to take Pakistan head on have something to do with tribals or Pushtoons in general.....

That is because the Pukhtuns have been radicalized by a sustained effort to fight the Soviets but after their decline, they were left like headless chickens, beating about against total darkness in complete disarray.

As far as cities go i've read members saying that slums housing Afghanis are the real cause of the mess cause they send their children to madrassas rather than proper schools which provide excellent human sources for the miscreants.... AGAIN..... TRIBALS ARE INVOLVED!

Once again, its because of the prevailing state of mind.

I've rarely seen Punjabi or heck anything other than these people causing trouble..... remember Chechnya?

Rest assured, there are a good number of Punjabi militants too and then there are home-grown Punjabi groups like the SSP and LeJ.

The funny thing is the righteous and just ISI and Pakistan military was involved in this as well , why not wish the same for them then?

Involved in the 80s, the entire post has been addressed in my post.

 

[Hyperion]

Late 90's..... though in a different way.........

Involved in the 80s, the entire post has been addressed in my post.

 

[Icarus]

Late 90's..... though in a different way.........

Yeah, diplomatic piggy backing, hardly direct support.

 

[Multani]

My point remains, why did the tribals help them. They knew foreigners were there, why didn't they expel them?
Why did they allow their children to be born?
Scared? Well, how about being scared of clusters?
And how can you forget the FACT that majority of the militants throughout the country who actually have the will to take Pakistan head on have something to do with tribals or Pushtoons in general.....
Recently an explosives truck was found with Swatis in it, i mean don't they have OTHER ethnicities?
As far as cities go i've read members saying that slums housing Afghanis are the real cause of the mess cause they send their children to madrassas rather than proper schools which provide excellent human sources for the miscreants.... AGAIN..... TRIBALS ARE INVOLVED!
I've rarely seen Punjabi or heck anything other than these people causing trouble..... remember Chechnya?
Others just aren't the bang for the buck for our Arab friends.

1/3rd of the tribals helped them [ because these tribals have been influenced by deobandis / tablighis coming from punjab]

punjabi [ not just south, but central and northern ] is the brain behind ALL TTP thinking.

punjabi has been the brain for ALL groups: LeJ, SSP, Mangal Bagh's lashkar, TTP, even sufi muhammad's group, Lal masjid etc.

not that there aren't some pushtoons dominating now, but punjabi is still the central brain

 

[Amaa'n]

this is what happens when media itself becomes the prosecutor, jury and the judge.
Media completely went out of line and twisted the words to sensationalize it.....
The then COAS backed out not because he was afraid of backlash, he was afraid that how are we going to manage the backlash-----
In the interview it is clearly mentioned that "Military Leadership" was ready for the Op, but was"Civil Leadership" ready? were they prepared to face the wave of Terrorist attacks in our cities?? When the ranks of our civilian leadership and bureaucracy were filled with most corrupt people, how could he take the decision on his own and lead the Operation??

We had just came out of 9 year long Military Dictatorship rule, add the Propaganda videos from SWAT Op 2009/08, immense pressure from US, this Operation was the last thing we needed. There was no national consensus at that time.........Athar Abbas is right - History will be the Judge.
People like Kiyani & Pasha served this country during the worst time and held this country together.

Things today are completely different, one thorough look at today and back in 2010 and one sane person will rubbish this story off.....

 

[EyanKhan]

Yeah, diplomatic piggy backing, hardly direct support.

a little more then that(plus kashmiri insurgents but let it be)
So @FunkyGen waiting for an answer?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Agreed, Kiyani's reluctance in conducting the NWA Op cannot be chalked to a lack of commitment or courage, it was simply because he was looking for an opportune moment to trigger what would undoubtedly be a conflict that would displace many people and cause much loss of life and infrastructure. In any such situation, you have to see if the situation is suited for triggering an operation. As I said in another thread, we have to keep in mind that at the time, two of the nation's largest political parties, the PTI and PMLN opposed the Op and the population was also quite averse to the idea, the operation was likened to American slavery and what not. Under such circumstances, starting an operation would have favoured the Taliban and half achieved their objectives already.
When remembering Kiyani, I think it is very unfair to overlook the dozen or so operations that he did command with exemplary distinction which proved to be invaluable in breaking the TTP's back in Pakistan and drove them from 100km of Islamabad to far from the Durand Line.
The government at the time, as you have mentioned was also quite a challenge, they had the stomach for a war but lacked the money needed to finance it and the mass appeal needed to sustain it. So Kiyani had all this to contend with when taking a decision.



I disagree, the man faced one of the most difficult time this nation has been through and the fact that we got through alright goes a long way in floating this man's boat.

@Icarus;
Your points make logical sense. And ironically some of the reasons to justify Gen.Kiyani's actions (or inactions) are to be found in Athar Abbas's interview itself. He himself says that Gen.Kiyani was (justifiably) apprehensive of the right-wing back-lash then. Let us recall that the then Govt had zero-traction on the right-wing elements. While this Govt. certainly wields some influence on those elements. Even Gen.Abbas ought to be aware of that. The Economy of Pakistan was in far deeper doldrums then. The PA and the Security Estt. then had its morale in much worse condition, being constantly battered upon both internally as well as externally. The US was in a much more aggressive mind-set then. None of these were conducive to commencing the Ops then. Undoubtedly if the Govt. of that time was more popular, had a cleaner image, had more clarity of policy and most importantly had a more harmonious relationship with GHQ; then that was a far better time to kick off the Ops. But those conditions did not exist then, also I'm really inclined to believe that all sections of the "Deep State" were not even clear at that time as to what the policy towards all the Taliban-esque factions should be or the clearer definition of 'so-called strategic assets' existed. For that matter, even the various factions of the Taliban had not exposed themselves or their intentions completely. That happened later.

In conclusion; I do think that Gen.Kiyani (considering all circumstances then prevailing) did well not to embark on a some-what risky venture. Due to his alleged inaction; Kiyani really helped the elected Democratic set-up in Pakistan to take root and transition from one elected Govt. to another. If this Op had been started then and failed; even this one institution would have collapsed. The Pakistanis State itself would have been irreparably damage, the economy imploded and even the Institution of the PA seriously threatened.

As Gen.Abbas says at the end of his interview: "History will judge Gen.Kiyani".
Yes indeed; and if History is objective (as it ought to be) then History will also consider all the reasons why Gen.Kiyani sought to keep his powder dry; before arriving at any judgement.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What a misleading headline - the interviewer asked the same question twice and received essentially the same answer, yet the headline reads that Kayani was afraid for his personal safety.

Q: Do you think that Mr Kayani was afraid of a personal attack against him?


A: I don’t think so, but certainly there was the vulnerability of towns and cities because there was weakness in our law enforcement, the civilian law-enforcement agencies. They were so much in disarray. So this was also the concern. But now, too, the vulnerability is the same; the retaliation may occur.

There was also no political consensus and therefore he thought a military operation would not find political support. And there would be a strong reaction by the religious right. He also apprehended that they would directly attack him.

That became his main concern.

Q: Can we say that he was concerned about religious hardliners’ backlash towards him?


A: He was concerned about the reaction of the religious right. But the fact was that the ruling party, the Awami National Party and the MQM were all for an all-out operation. They were all along for the operation, barring the right-of-centre parties and, of course, the religious right. I don’t know how concerned he was about his personal security or safety.

 

[Jaanbaz]

Should we be so hasty and unequivocal in passing judgement on Kayani? I agree that Gen.Shareef has been very decisive in initiating and handling this operation.

But can (or should) we overlook the context in which Gen.Kayani had to function? The civilian govt in his time was even more "lame-duck" and tainted in all respects than this present one. Then all the controversy over the unearthing and eventual destruction of OBL in Pakistan had cast a serious shadow to the extent of even causing demoralisation in the security estt. Add to that; USA was even more prickly towards Pakistan than now (presently they seem to be more be benignly disposed).
Kayani had "to hold the tiller" through that more difficult time, he probably was more sanguine about his (and his forces) abilities to take all that head-on. Should he not; then get some lee-way in this regard?

@Icarus; Sir I will again trouble you for your views on this, if I may be permitted to.

Are you Pakistani? Do you have relatives/friends in Pak Army? Gen Kiyani was made Gen with support of USA. Why would he have launched operation against Taliban which are backed by CIA.