Kayani feared religious right’s backlash against him: Athar Abbas

[Armstrong]

Its about the policies no doubt, but you also need the stability and persona that an established leader can grant you in the face of such adversity as the time period of 2008-11. It was an extraordinary period in this nation's history and it required that some extraordinary decisions be taken.

The established leader gave way to someone who was, frankly, brushed aside whenever talk of the new COAS was talked about & yet hes performed admirably so far - This notion of an established persona is a red herring...the Army as an Institution is deeply flawed but its still better than any other Institution in Pakistan & so its safe to say that those who are next in line do indeed have what it takes to provide the stability & the persona needed to take the Army forward !

Giving him an extension was a wrong move by the Government & accepting an extension was even worse for Kayani - Its unbecoming for a Commander to overstay his welcome like that - No junior would ever wish to hear that his superior still wishes to hold on to power long after his time is up & the reasoning being that he - the Jr. - may not be up to the task to steer the Army in these turbulent times !

This policy of extensions & guessing-game so far as the COAS's appointment is concerned ought to stop - The senior most should be made the COAS & when his time is up he should leave with dignity so that the next in line can take over the mantle & in this manner the Institution as a whole gets developed & isn't held hostage to any single 'individual' !

 

[Icarus]

The established leader gave way to someone who was, frankly, brushed aside whenever talk of the new COAS was talked about & yet hes performed admirably so far - This notion of an established persona is a red herring...the Army as an Institution is deeply flawed but its still better than any other Institution in Pakistan & so its safe to say that those who are next in line do indeed have what it takes to provide the stability & the persona needed to take the Army forward !

My friend, you cannot have a change of command when you are in a war, you just cannot deal with that type of upheaval without your moment of weakness.

Giving him an extension was a wrong move by the Government & accepting an extension was even worse for Kayani - Its unbecoming for a Commander to overstay his welcome like that - No junior would ever wish to hear that his superior still wishes to hold on to power long after his time is up & the reasoning being that he - the Jr. - may not be up to the task to steer the Army in these turbulent times !

I disagree, the forces are not concerned with who their leader is because frankly, it does not concern them in the least. These are not matters that should be open for public discussion and naked dissection over the media as they have become, the Army is a disciplined force and understands the needs of the hour, no junior would think of any less of Kiyani for accepting an extension in the situation that he accepted it, rather it would have been very disgraceful of him to turn it down, it would have been akin to deserting his troops. It must be remembered though that I am no longer an Army man and I believe that @Xeric might be more suited to address your concern and further add to my post.

This policy of extensions & guessing-game so far as the COAS's appointment is concerned ought to stop - The senior most should be made the COAS & when his time is up he should leave with dignity so that the next in line can take over the mantle & in this manner the Institution as a whole gets developed & isn't held hostage to any single 'individual' !

This senior-most thing is a joke, coined by pseudo-intellectuals and self-styled tacticians. We cannot give someone the command of the most important force of the country based simply on whose mother birthed him before the others, all the Generals that contest for the top spot are equally competent and experienced people but there has to be something that should distinguish one from the rest, it may be battlefield experience or exceptional service, be what it may, the deciding characteristic cannot be "Seniority" as so naively said.

 

[Armstrong]

My friend, you cannot have a change of command when you are in a war, you just cannot deal with that type of upheaval without your moment of weakness.

The Americans did it multiple times during the Iraq & the Afghanistan Wars as did the Allies (as a whole) & the Axis/Triple Entente throughout the two Great Wars !

I disagree, the forces are not concerned with who their leader is because frankly, it does not concern them in the least. These are not matters that should be open for public discussion and naked dissection over the media as they have become, the Army is a disciplined force and understands the needs of the hour, no junior would think of any less of Kiyani for accepting an extension in the situation that he accepted it, rather it would have been very disgraceful of him to turn it down, it would have been akin to deserting his troops. It must be remembered though that I am no longer an Army man and I believe that @Xeric might be more suited to address your concern and further add to my post.

Akin to deserting his troops because his 'service period' had completed ?

Retiring after completing your Service & handing the baton to your successor is the Only Honorable thing that a person can do whether in the Judiciary, in the Bureaucracy or in the Armed Forces !

@Xeric can't be trusted anymore since he called me Mr.Armstrong - Eik hi pal mein paraya kar diyaa !

This senior-most thing is a joke, coined by pseudo-intellectuals and self-styled tacticians. We cannot give someone the command of the most important force of the country based simply on whose mother birthed him before the others, all the Generals that contest for the top spot are equally competent and experienced people but there has to be something that should distinguish one from the rest, it may be battlefield experience or exceptional service, be what it may, the deciding characteristic cannot be "Seniority" as so naively said.

And how does one determine what distinguishes them from the rest ? And how in heaven's name is the Prime Minister who wouldn't be able to tell a G3 from an AK47, is the best person to tell which of the top 5-10 individuals for the COAS are more meritorious than the others ?

This is precisely the reason why 'seniority' was coined as the next-best-alternative !

If a person has risen to the level of being in the running of the COAS than whenever his Mother birthed him I think he made it to the Top because of his own credentials - Making him the COAS would neither harm the competence of the Force as a whole nor would it demean any other who, as a general rule, take early retirement when being superseded while at the same time it will ensure that there is no Political Interference in the Army with no Bhutto to think up a Zia-ul-Haq & no Noora to appoint Mushy in preference to perfectly capable officers before him - I wonder if we had gone for the Kargil thing had Ali Kuli Khan Sahib had been at the helm of the Army ?

 

[Icarus]

The Americans did it multiple times during the Iraq & the Afghanistan Wars as did the Allies (as a whole) & the Axis/Triple Entente throughout the two Great Wars !

As for the great war, completely different scenario, generals were substitutable in a conflict of that scale.
As for Iraq and Afghanistan, their capital was not on the verge of falling to an Islamist Insurgency or they might have given the option due consideration.

Akin to deserting his troops because his 'service period' had completed ?

If he hadn't been offered an extension, it would have been fine to step down, I specifically mentioned it would have been desertion if he had turned down the extension.

Retiring after completing your Service & handing the baton to your successor is the Only Honorable thing that a person can do whether in the Judiciary, in the Bureaucracy or in the Armed Forces !

Not when you are leading a war and are offered an extension because the nation stands on the brink of collapse, stepping down then, would be criminal.

And how does one determine what distinguishes them from the rest ? And how in heaven's name is the Prime Minister who wouldn't be able to tell a G3 from an AK47, is the best person to tell which of the top 5-10 individuals for the COAS are more meritorious than the others ?

1. The PM has his cabinet and advisers to help him decide.
2. The political system has to be granted some leverage to make decisions in order to let the system mature, they chose Gen Raheel and I dare say it was quite a good decision.

This is precisely the reason why 'seniority' was coined as the next-best-alternative !

I beg to disagree, imagine if companies started selecting CEOs based on age, it would be a terrible gamble and now switch over the stock value with the lives of soldiers, you now have a faint idea of where I am going with this.

If a person has risen to the level of being in the running of the COAS than whenever his Mother birthed him I think he made it to the Top because of his own credentials - Making him the COAS would neither harm the competence of the Force as a whole nor would it demean any other who, as a general rule, take early retirement when being superseded while at the same time it will ensure that there is no Political Interference in the Army with no Bhutto to think up a Zia-ul-Haq & no Noora to appoint Mushy in preference to perfectly capable officers before him - I wonder if we had gone for the Kargil thing had Ali Kuli Khan Sahib had been at the helm of the Army ?

If he delve into alternate history than there are a lot of things that should and should not have happened. Ayub Khan shouldn't have been forced to resign, Bhutto shouldn't have won the 71 election, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto shouldn't have screwed over the economy. Whereas these scenarios might have some merit to them in an alternate dimension, they are mere pigments of one's imagination now.

 

[babajees]

Wow.. What a "phattoo" army chief.. no wonder.. American slaves are usually like that

 

[Armstrong]

As for the great war, completely different scenario, generals were substitutable in a conflict of that scale.
As for Iraq and Afghanistan, their capital was not on the verge of falling to an Islamist Insurgency or they might have given the option due consideration.

How are they completely different scenarios ? Half of Europe had been over-run & they were fighting against Armies that would put the TTP to shame many times over in terms of actually taking physical territory from you & then holding it !

Heck they even subjugated France & had Hitler been anyless a meglomaniac that he was - Britain would've been history too !

We too were fighting an extremely difficult war under pressure conditions !

Whether the Capital was about to fall or not is irrelevant the intensity of the War remains the same - Did Churchill decide 'Maybe I should let the current General be the COAS for the remainder of the War' because we had our butts handed to us at Dunkirk ?

No - Because Institutions are what matter & not Individuals or are contending that the Army hadn't a single capable person to step in after bidding adieu to Kayani ?

If he hadn't been offered an extension, it would have been fine to step down, I specifically mentioned it would have been desertion if he had turned down the extension.

He should've refused the extension anyhow - It is not desertion to say that those who are next in line are perfectly capable of leading the Army & I'd rather retire with dignity after completing my service because the 'Army as an Institution' is better !

This is the same logic that those in the Civilian Bureaucracy give when they take extensions over extensions - Turbulent times & what not !

Not when you are leading a war and are offered an extension because the nation stands on the brink of collapse, stepping down then, would be criminal.

No it won't be - Stepping down after completing your Service is a lot different than Stepping down mid-way because you couldn't handle the pressure; if anything he would've added to his prestige & his refusal would've said it loud & clear that the Army as an Institution is greater than any single Individual & there are perfectly capable people throughout the structure who can steer this ship in an effective & efficient manner in line with the challenges that it faces - That is what leaders do !

1. The PM has his cabinet and advisers to help him decide.
2. The political system has to be granted some leverage to make decisions in order to let the system mature, they chose Gen Raheel and I dare say it was quite a good decision.

Gen.Raheel was indeed a good decision...I'd have wanted Tariq Khan Sahib instead but Zahirul Islam who let the Swat Operation successfully & was the senior most would've been a very good choice too !

I beg to disagree, imagine if companies started selecting CEOs based on age, it would be a terrible gamble and now switch over the stock value with the lives of soldiers, you now have a faint idea of where I am going with this.

No I don't because the Army like the Civil Services, the Judiciary & any other Public Institution is a beast of bureaucracy & hence why throughout the world they're not run like corporations otherwise the COAS's appointment would be the least of our worries !

If he delve into alternate history than there are a lot of things that should and should not have happened. Ayub Khan shouldn't have been forced to resign, Bhutto shouldn't have won the 71 election, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto shouldn't have screwed over the economy. Whereas these scenarios might have some merit to them in an alternate dimension, they are mere pigments of one's imagination now.

Thats besides the point - The point was that the so-called Merit thing hasn't really worked out has it because from Ayub Khan to Mushy we've seen quite a few people appointed on merit who haven't really turned out to be the brightest bulbs in the Army - Better men...much better men were side-stepped because some PM thought he knew best !

Hence why Seniority is the way forward !

 

[Icarus]

Wow.. What a "******" army chief.. no wonder.. American slaves are usually like that

Watch your language please.

 

[Slav Defence]

Oh please grow up guys.How long am I gonna read this crap that US/C.I.A was behind General(r)Kiyani's decision?Instead,US was promoting 'do more' policy.
I don't need to add anything else since @Icarus has addressed and covered a lot facts in fantastic manner along with intellects like @Armstrong and some sane Indian posters.
However,I have noticed from General (r) Ather Abbas's interview that Milliary's counter terrorism policy was quite different as compare to that of civil regimes'
The PPP counter terrorism policy was based on three factors:
-Development
-Dialogue
-Deterrence

This was later improved/modified when pml-n has come to power.

-Dismantle
-Containment
-Prevention
-Education
-Reintegrate

However, military's policy was much efficient and effective and core reason of it's effectiveness was the element/objective of 'isolation' of specific outfits.
This means that civil regime's policy was not aligned to that of army's and it took time for them to understand and reach to the same conclusion as that if army's Think Tank.
So,we were not aligned first of all.
Second, US 'do more' policy has produced reverse psychology among subject.If operation was launched at that time then I bet to say that army will be less supported as compare to today's scenario.
There were a lot reason's in front of Mr.Kiyani to take decision.I will admit that his delay has caused increase in complexity, but I reject this indirect accusation of being selfish. Mr.Kiyani was not selfish nor he was weak.There were a lot reasons due to which he wasn't preffering operation.
However,I do admit that this delay in decision has caused serious damages,sadly.
Regards

 

[babajees]

Are you Pakistani? Do you have relatives/friends in Pak Army? Gen Kiyani was made Gen with support of USA. Why would he have launched operation against Taliban which are backed by CIA.

If Gen Kiyani was made Gen with support of USA, tht means all generals are made in support of USA?
Also, given the amount of dollars our army gets from USA, why wouldnt any general obey USA?
Dont forget, USA ordered this operation.. kiyani refused.. Shareef obliged. what does that make him?

Internet.. where stupid people can make "facts"

Watch your language please.

sorry, my bad, let me rephrase:

What a "coward" army chief.. American slaves are usually like that

 

[Icarus]

How are they completely different scenarios ? Half of Europe had been over-run & they were fighting against Armies that would put the TTP to shame many times over in terms of actually taking physical territory from you & then holding it !

Different in:

1. The scale of hostilities.
2. The sheer size of formations, not divs, not corps, we're talking mutiple armies.
3. The expanse of the theater of war.
4. The cult of personality of leaders involved, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt.

Whether the Capital was about to fall or not is irrelevant the intensity of the War remains the same - Did Churchill decide 'Maybe I should let the current General be the COAS for the remainder of the War' because we had our butts handed to us at Dunkirk ?

Your folly lies in thinking that conventional war, world war and COIN are interchangeable terms with any similarity between them. No two wars are alike and there are entirely different categories at that.

No - Because Institutions are what matter & not Individuals or are contending that the Army hadn't a single capable person to step in after bidding adieu to Kayani ?

You are constantly pushing the same argument without giving my concerns an ear, it is about consistency, I have no doubt about the qualifications of the next person but the next person cannot continue to be Kiyani.

He should've refused the extension anyhow - It is not desertion to say that those who are next in line are perfectly capable of leading the Army & I'd rather retire with dignity after completing my service because the 'Army as an Institution' is better !

Your opinion.

This is the same logic that those in the Civilian Bureaucracy give when they take extensions over extensions - Turbulent times & what not !

Only difference is that they do no actual work, Kiyani was flying to one line to the next, meeting soldiers and overseeing their progress.

No it won't be - Stepping down after completing your Service is a lot different than Stepping down mid-way because you couldn't handle the pressure; if anything he would've added to his prestige & his refusal would've said it loud & clear that the Army as an Institution is greater than any single Individual & there are perfectly capable people throughout the structure who can steer this ship in an effective & efficient manner in line with the challenges that it faces - That is what leaders do !

Leaders lead and when asked to lead further, they continue to lead further.

Gen.Raheel was indeed a good decision...I'd have wanted Tariq Khan Sahib instead but Zahirul Islam who let the Swat Operation successfully & was the senior most would've been a very good choice too !

I was rooting for Gen. TK too but Gen. Raheel Sharif has thoroughly impressed.

No I don't because the Army like the Civil Services, the Judiciary & any other Public Institution is a beast of bureaucracy & hence why throughout the world they're not run like corporations otherwise the COAS's appointment would be the least of our worries !

You take my analogy too rigidly.

Thats besides the point - The point was that the so-called Merit thing hasn't really worked out has it because from Ayub Khan to Mushy we've seen quite a few people appointed on merit who haven't really turned out to be the brightest bulbs in the Army - Better men...much better men were side-stepped because some PM thought he knew best !

Someone has to make the call, who would you prefer?

Hence why Seniority is the way forward !

I would still disagree, it is completely possible that among a group of generals, one can be four courses junior to the rest and still out do them in all respects, to see him sent home solely because he was born later would be shame.

 

[niaz]

It is quite likely Gen Athar Abbas is telling the truth as his imagined it. However one must not ignore that Gen Athar Abbas retired in the 2-star rank and normally 2- star generals are not among the decision making elite. We are also aware that Gen Athar Abbas never held sensitive positions such as DGMO or DG Military intelligence; therefore he could not have been privy to Gen Kiyani’s inner circle.

For argument’s sake let us assume his remarks describe the situation correctly that it was Gen Kiyani who procrastinated, but have we considered possible political fallout of this action?

It is doubtful if PPP gov’t had the resolve to do it alone and with combined opposition from PML-N, PTI, JI & JUI National Assembly approval was unlikely. Remember, PML-N was among the pro-Taliban camp while in the Opposition. On the other hand, Pak Army starting a major military operation without okay from Zardari & Co. would tantamount to mutiny.

I am not a great fan of Gen Kiyani and hold him responsible for the bad press Pakistan received in the international circles after OBL was found hiding next to PMA for 5 years without MI or ISI being aware of it.

A soldier should have the courage and conviction to speak up if he thinks his Chief is working against national interest and / or resign under protest. However, it appears that none of generals who criticise their Chiefs and write books after they retire, had any conscience while they were still wearing the uniform. In this case I blame Gen Athar Abbas for the lack of spine.

In my opinion this is a cheap publicity seeking stunt and should be ignored.

 

[Kompromat]

My opinion is that he should have kept his mouth zipped for a few years.

 

[WishLivePak]

My opinion is that he should have kept his mouth zipped for a few years.

Nope.

Now we know how much military respected opinion of civil leadership. They could've done as they prefer, but didnt. they feared backlash, because they valued their opinion.

So this disclosure will help us understand also that ttp has become a parasite and the longer we keep it alive, the far damaging it gets. We need not only to launch operation in north wazirstan, but entire fata. Then move to denser areas, like kp, punjab, baloch and sindh. There are millions of such mindset floating around in Pakistan.

 

[iPhone]

Wow, this man is dishing out dirt on kiyani like it's nobody's business, huh. Good for him. I don't blame him one but.. He seems like a hurt patriotic soldier who watched his country burn and wanted to act but his hands were tied. And now he's unleashing a torrent of rage at the culprits.

When these high profile hits on the military installation were happening and ttp was owning up to them blatantly and brazenly, yet this man, this kiyani, kept quiet, I knew right there and then he's incompetent. Not just incompetent but also a coward. For years he watched ttp and the affiliate mullahs wreck havoc across the country and he took no action. Despite the fact there was a lot of political support for an operation in the form of ANP and PPP, he just sat on his throne and shamelessly watched the blood bath. I feel like cursing him out in old Urdu fashion to make my feelings known.

 

[Slav Defence]

It is quite likely Gen Athar Abbas is telling the truth as his imagined it. However one must not ignore that Gen Athar Abbas retired in the 2-star rank and normally 2- star generals are not among the decision making elite. We are also aware that Gen Athar Abbas never held sensitive positions such DGMO or DG Military intelligence; therefore he could not have been privy to Gen Kiyani’s inner circle.

For argument’s sake let us assume his remarks describe the situation correctly that it was Gen Kiyani who procrastinated, but have we considered possible political fallout of this action?

It is doubtful if PPP gov’t had the resolve to do it alone and with combined opposition from PML-N, PTI, JI & JUI National Assembly approval was unlikely. Remember, PML-N was among the pro-Taliban camp while in the Opposition. On the other hand, Pak Army starting a major military operation without okay from Zardari & Co. would tantamount to mutiny.

I am not a great fan of Gen Kiyani and hold him responsible for the bad press Pakistan received in the international circles after OBL was found hiding next to PMA for 5 years without MI or ISI being aware of it.

A soldier should have the courage and conviction to speak up if he thinks his Chief is working against national interest and / or resign under protest. However, it appears that none of generals who criticise their Chiefs and write books after they retire, had any conscience while they were still wearing the uniform. In this case I blame Gen Athar Abbas for the lack of spine.

In my opinion this is a cheap publicity seeking stunt and should be ignored.

Generals do face criticism. I think that General(r) Ather Abbas didn't realized that his opinion will cause this much fire among media channels.
I respect both Generals,honestly and I do not understand that what has made him to draw such conclusion?I sense that Mr.Ather's remarks intended to complain rather then declaring him selfish.His statements are mis interpreted by media.
General (r)Kiyani was representing armed sector and he was handling huge responsibility. In case if he has launched operation at that time and the ops. failed due to so many known reason,then same Kiyani will be held responsible for wasting lives of deployed soldiers plus civilians or in case of success he would be again blamed for supporting US do more policy.
Hence he will be facing blame at all cost whether:
He wages operation
He do not wages operation.

So,he preffered to go with option #one.
We all know that OBL presence was complete set up plan to finish this character,so that US could escort its forces out of Afghanistan while sustaining her moral.Where is his dead body?why we aren't shown?why we are told that it now it lies under the ocean bed?maybe I am wrong sir,but I still doubt it,especially after reading Abbottabad commission report.
Regards