JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[IHK_PK]

You are forgetting the AEWACS factor. Bluster aside, the Indians won't know what's comin' for them. AEWACS + Thunder is a game changer.

Then what happened in china, where 2 jf-17's in the presence of our AEWACS lost against a single Chinese SU-27, earlier.

 

[Tipu7]

Cool enough?

 

[Bratva]

You are forgetting the AEWACS factor. Bluster aside, the Indians won't know what's comin' for them. AEWACS + Thunder is a game changer.

Let's put things in perspective. India has AWACS which can see far ahead than Erieye or ZDK. That AWAC is Jam packed with Israeli Long range Electronic counter measures and Electronic support Measure sensors. Despite JF-17 small size, Can ZDK/Erieye + JF-17 combo hide easily from the preying eyes of Indian Hi-Tech AEWC ? That AEWC can update Upgraded Super Sukhoi or Upgraded Mirages, both of which have or will have BVR armaments whose range exceed SD-10. So JF-17 gets detected at 200 KM. You think JF-17 can detect Su-30 before 150 Km ? No.

What other ECM JF-17 has beside indra? That too only in Block-2. We have no idea or confirmation that Block-1 got Indra or not. Is indra enough to be deployed in offensive posture? Based on recent Chinese report, Pakistan were at disadvantage in Electronic warfare arena. So is it the indians who would be at disadvantage once again ?

Now Who has the first chance of firing BVR? Pakistani Side or the Indian Side? Who has more BVR carrying capability and can fire more BVR and force the other party to turn away from fight? Pakistani Jets or the Indian ones ?

PAF is capable of giving nosebleed only for a week and a half in defensive posture. Forget about Offensive posture at all. So any other fantasy and belittling enemy capabilities is like living in a "Shiekh Chilli" world.

 

[ziaulislam]

Thank you for responding. Not denying your expert opinion. I posted the above with respect to JF-17 current state and prevailing challenges.
In this very thread, many a times, one feel that a large aircraft with 8-10 BVRs with large radar is invincible. If it has acquired and locked you say at 100km, you are dead.
One Flanker would shot down at least 6 of JF-17s from 80kms away (easy peesey) before even being detected.

99% of us are lay-men (referred as armed chair generals. me included)
So I think, if we are here to learn something, we should know in black and white, that a very very complex thing like war or air combat is not a video game. If the points in post are correct, then one should discuss the real odds, if both Pakistan and Indian air forces come face to face. Both having very trained and professional personals. Majority of planes carrying ECM, jammers and FCR. I would say more of air duels would be in WVR possible <20kms. Number of planes and better use would be the key. In that scenario, if we look at Thunder, I would say PAF strategy is a good one. SU-30MKI in no way carrying silver bullets. There are limits and physical barriers of nature and no machine is 100% optimum.


Thank you. Sorry forgot to tag you. Always look forward for your expert opinions and posts

It's important to take the machine to its peak in training and operational capacity
This was exactly what sweden did in cold war with gripen and the vaggen

 

[BATMAN]

Then what happened in china, where 2 jf-17's in the presence of our AEWACS lost against a single Chinese SU-27, earlier.

Tell us what happened? Are you talking about ZDK AWACS?

Indian SU is a sluggish truck, which have RCS twice the size of JF-17.
All its BVR carrying capacity is useless, because its outdated BVR capability has 5% chance of hit. Meteor would be first Indian BVR with potential to hit.

Turnaround rate of SU is extremely poor, during red flag exercise, where best of Indian pilots and hardware participate, at one point Indian Airforce was told to stand down or improve its sortie rate.

JF-17 is an agile, BVR capable plus integrated well in Pakistan's comprehensive defense shield, IAF simply have no chance.

Ground reality is India and US are pushing each other to attack Pakistan, while themselves they both are not willing to go in all out war with Pakistan, at least not alone. Therefore both have agreed to use terrorism against Pakistan as tool, to weaken Pakistan defenses, hence the attacks on AWACS.

Meanwhile, India-US pay to fake defense experts driven by personal biases, to keep high moral of its Indian forces and public.

 

[messiach]

Yes.

Despite JF-17 small size, Can ZDK + JF-17 combo hide easily from the preying eyes of Indian Hi-Tech AEWC ?

SD10 has better range now & extension is planned.

That AEWC can update Upgraded Super Sukhoi or Upgraded Mirages, both of which have or will have BVR armaments whose range exceed SD-10.

 

[IHK_PK]

Tell us what happened? Are you talking about ZDK AWACS?

Indian SU is a sluggish truck, which have RCS twice the size of JF-17.
All its BVR carrying capacity is useless, because its outdated BVR capability has 5% chance of hit. Meteor would be first Indian BVR with potential to hit.

Turnaround rate of SU is extremely poor, during red flag exercise, where best of Indian pilots and hardware participate, at one point Indian Airforce was told to stand down or improve its sortie rate.

JF-17 is an agile, BVR capable plus integrated well in Pakistan's comprehensive defense shield, IAF simply have no chance.

Ground reality is India and US are pushing each other to attack Pakistan, while themselves they both are not willing to go in all out war with Pakistan, at least not alone. Therefore both have agreed to use terrorism against Pakistan as tool, to weaken Pakistan defenses, hence the attacks on AWACS.

Meanwhile, India-US pay to fake defense experts driven by personal biases, to keep high moral of its Indian forces and public.

Some reports from Shaheen VI" imply that a J - 11b "beat" two JF-17 in a dogfight 1 vs 2.

http://zqb.cyol.com/html/2017-09/28/nw.D110000zgqnb_20170928_1-11.htm

 

[messiach]

AWACS ZDK were not involved here as i understood. It was an aggressor scenario to see whether FC1 can escape from a highly vulnerable position in a 1-1 not 1-2 scenario. Someone from a fighter pilot background may better comment. @Knuckles @Oscar & others.

Some rep orts from Shaheen VI" imply that a J - 11b "beat" two JF-17 in a dogfight 1 vs 2.

http://zqb.cyol.com/html/2017-09/28/nw.D110000zgqnb_20170928_1-11.htm

 

[HRK]

Yes.

Despite JF-17 small size, Can ZDK/Erieye + JF-17 combo hide easily from the preying eyes of Indian Hi-Tech AEWC ?

Can you plz explain it in more detail .....

thnx in advance

 

[gambit]

In this very thread, many a times, one feel that a large aircraft with 8-10 BVRs with large radar is invincible. If it has acquired and locked you say at 100km, you are dead.

Yah...I get the tenor of that often.

It depends on the mission of the day.

Let us take two situations: Contested airspace and controlled airspace.

In contested airspace, the odds of having enemy aircrafts are high. Why else would that area be 'contested', right ?

In controlled airspace, the odds of having enemy aircrafts are low. Obviously enough, we have dominance to the point where air traffic will be mostly friendly.

Which situation requires you -- the pilot -- to secure the identity of an unknown aircraft ?

The closer you need to be to the unidentified aircraft, the more reliant you will be upon close quarters combat skills. The gun and its ammo only increases weight, whereas each missile takes up limited hardpoints. The gun have only one range of operation, whereas the missile can be beyond or within visual ranges. If you have a missile loadout for beyond visual range but the mission of the day requires you to be closer to the target, you are actually at risk because the unidentified aircraft maybe hostile and its pilot maybe better armed than you for that situation.

In contested airspace, all aircrafts, especially friendlies, are well aware that if they do not respond to IFF queries, the odds of being fired upon at beyond visual ranges are very high. And if the area is highly contested, meaning there are constant or near constant enemy presence, there may not be any life saving IFF queries at all.

This is why mission planning takes hrs and mission commanders want so much intelligence regardless of airspace status.

...if both Pakistan and Indian air forces come face to face.

There are limits on using US airpower applications for reference.

For starter, US airpower is extraordinarily expeditionary. Simply put, who can turn US airspace into contested airspace ? Two great oceans forms very discouraging barriers to any military and given the fact that most of the planet is covered by water, any country must first be a naval power before it can entertain the idea of challenging the US on our soil. This means US airpower are pre-conditioned to be expeditionary in both concept and application. We bring the fight to 'you', whoever 'you' are, whether 'you' like it or not. In sporting terms, the US military is likely forever to be the 'Visitor' team.

So since Pakistan and India are literal next door neighbors, that means your respective airspaces can be either contested or controlled in hrs. Philosophically, your airpower doctrines must reflect that potentiality. Your air forces must be flexible in training and operations. When enemies are literal next door neighbors, friendlies are always at greater risk of fratricides, aka 'blue on blue' killings. Enemy air forces can penetrate and disappears before you can react and that will place a higher level of stress on identification protocols.

Border airspaces are likely to be contested, so if the mission of the day is over home airspace at the border or even cross border into enemy home soil, what kind of missile loadout for that day ?

As airspace withdraw deeper and deeper into home soil, most likely any area will be controlled, so if the mission for that day is patrol and security, what kind of missile loadout for that day ?

Questions like these are important even for the laymen who are interested in military issues, particularly for air force related issues.

 

[messiach]

We'll talk next weekend.

Can you plz explain it in more detail .....

thnx in advance

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Nice to see all operations are moving along nicely

 

[CriticalThought]

Let's put things in perspective. India has AWACS which can see far ahead than Erieye or ZDK. That AWAC is Jam packed with Israeli Long range Electronic counter measures and Electronic support Measure sensors. Despite JF-17 small size, Can ZDK/Erieye + JF-17 combo hide easily from the preying eyes of Indian Hi-Tech AEWC ? That AEWC can update Upgraded Super Sukhoi or Upgraded Mirages, both of which have or will have BVR armaments whose range exceed SD-10. So JF-17 gets detected at 200 KM. You think JF-17 can detect Su-30 before 150 Km ? No.

What other ECM JF-17 has beside indra? That too only in Block-2. We have no idea or confirmation that Block-1 got Indra or not. Is indra enough to be deployed in offensive posture? Based on recent Chinese report, Pakistan were at disadvantage in Electronic warfare arena. So is it the indians who would be at disadvantage once again ?

Now Who has the first chance of firing BVR? Pakistani Side or the Indian Side? Who has more BVR carrying capability and can fire more BVR and force the other party to turn away from fight? Pakistani Jets or the Indian ones ?

PAF is capable of giving nosebleed only for a week and a half in defensive posture. Forget about Offensive posture at all. So any other fantasy and belittling enemy capabilities is like living in a "Shiekh Chilli" world.

How do you know our AEWACS can't perform EW? Most importantly, how do you know they can't jam incoming BVRs? I don't know anything BTW.

 

[Zarvan]

Let's put things in perspective. India has AWACS which can see far ahead than Erieye or ZDK. That AWAC is Jam packed with Israeli Long range Electronic counter measures and Electronic support Measure sensors. Despite JF-17 small size, Can ZDK/Erieye + JF-17 combo hide easily from the preying eyes of Indian Hi-Tech AEWC ? That AEWC can update Upgraded Super Sukhoi or Upgraded Mirages, both of which have or will have BVR armaments whose range exceed SD-10. So JF-17 gets detected at 200 KM. You think JF-17 can detect Su-30 before 150 Km ? No.

What other ECM JF-17 has beside indra? That too only in Block-2. We have no idea or confirmation that Block-1 got Indra or not. Is indra enough to be deployed in offensive posture? Based on recent Chinese report, Pakistan were at disadvantage in Electronic warfare arena. So is it the indians who would be at disadvantage once again ?

Now Who has the first chance of firing BVR? Pakistani Side or the Indian Side? Who has more BVR carrying capability and can fire more BVR and force the other party to turn away from fight? Pakistani Jets or the Indian ones ?

PAF is capable of giving nosebleed only for a week and a half in defensive posture. Forget about Offensive posture at all. So any other fantasy and belittling enemy capabilities is like living in a "Shiekh Chilli" world.

Nobody is underestimating India, you are just over estimating them. JF-17 alone has gone through massive upgrades recently including massive increase in range of radar also engine has been improved. As for jamming that is more of a hype than reality. Finally if India had been that capable they would have attacked us after 2008 Mumbai. They never even came close

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Let's put things in perspective. India has AWACS which can see far ahead than Erieye or ZDK. That AWAC is Jam packed with Israeli Long range Electronic counter measures and Electronic support Measure sensors. Despite JF-17 small size, Can ZDK/Erieye + JF-17 combo hide easily from the preying eyes of Indian Hi-Tech AEWC ? That AEWC can update Upgraded Super Sukhoi or Upgraded Mirages, both of which have or will have BVR armaments whose range exceed SD-10. So JF-17 gets detected at 200 KM. You think JF-17 can detect Su-30 before 150 Km ? No.

What other ECM JF-17 has beside indra? That too only in Block-2. We have no idea or confirmation that Block-1 got Indra or not. Is indra enough to be deployed in offensive posture? Based on recent Chinese report, Pakistan were at disadvantage in Electronic warfare arena. So is it the indians who would be at disadvantage once again ?

Now Who has the first chance of firing BVR? Pakistani Side or the Indian Side? Who has more BVR carrying capability and can fire more BVR and force the other party to turn away from fight? Pakistani Jets or the Indian ones ?

PAF is capable of giving nosebleed only for a week and a half in defensive posture. Forget about Offensive posture at all. So any other fantasy and belittling enemy capabilities is like living in a "Shiekh Chilli" world.

Sir the crux of discussion was that even if Flanker detect Thunder at 200Kms or even beyond that, the existing technology, physical barriers, and lots of other factors will force plane A to come very close to plane B in order to hit a successful shot.
Even hitting a practice drone with no maneuvering, no ECM yield 50-55% strike rates at BVR.
So its not all Sheikh Chilli, there is some thinking at part of developing Thunder and its more potent defence platform then one see on papers and in blogs