JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Dazzler]

SPECTRA remains a question mark. We don't know what kind of radar will be on the Indian Rafales. If they get an LPI radar, that would be a problem. AESA itself is not a magic solution. It is the software behind AESA. And that software is developed through thousands of man hours worth of painstaking research. It is the quality of that software that determines jamming resistance. Ghosts can be introduced even to an AESA radar. Is the software intelligent enough to discern ghosts? Which leads to the question, how good are the capabilities of the radar on the Rafale? These questions can only be answered if you hold an exercise with a friendly airforce and use ELINT assets to analyze the signals from the Rafale.

French are taking them for a ride big time, check the link. Hilarious

http://rafale.co.in/

 

[CriticalThought]

French are taking them for a ride big time, check the link. Hilarious

http://rafale.co.in/

Why would the French PM make a statement that undermines money flowing into his country? Things will be become clearer in the future, but for now I shall be pessimistic and consider the possibility that this is just a ruse to throw off people. It might really be a scandal, but I'll err on the side of paranoia. The Indians did carefully evaluate multiple platforms before making the decision, and the French are no slouches in technology.

 

[Dazzler]

Why would the French PM make a statement that undermines money flowing into his country? Things will be become clearer in the future, but for now I shall be pessimistic and consider the possibility that this is just a ruse to throw off people. It might really be a scandal, but I'll err on the side of paranoia. The Indians did carefully evaluate multiple platforms before making the decision, and the French are no slouches in technology.

You for some reason come up with your own set of assumptions in each post. Just read the gibberish again. Who suggested they are slouches in tech, and who claimed that Indians signed the deal as a knee jerk reaction?

Despite all the hush hush, the fact remains that Rafale is no miracle. It is an advanced fourth gen aricraft with decent set of technologies but Indians make the believe like the technology ends at it. As for spectra, it revolves around active cancellation whose performance has been demonstrated against conventional radars.

Put in a AESA with thousands of emitters throwing frequency agile beams at the Rafale and spectra will fall like the house of cards.
All the gimmicks that it makes it invisible and stuff are marketing stuff.

 

[CriticalThought]

You for some reason come up with your own set of assumptions in each post. Just read the gibberish again. Who suggested they are slouches in tech, and who claimed that Indians signed the deal as a knee jerk reaction?

Despite all the hush hush, the fact remains that Rafale is no miracle. It is an advanced fourth gen aricraft with decent set of technologies but Indians make the believe like the technology ends at it. As for spectra, it revolves around active cancellation whose performance has been demonstrated against conventional radars.

Put in a AESA with thousands of emitters throwing frequency agile beams at the Rafale and spectra will fall like the house of cards.
All the gimmicks that it makes it invisible and stuff are marketing stuff.

Sir, there is a physical phenomenon known as fundamental frequency. Given a geometrical object, the reflected signal will have certain resonant frequencies determined by the shape of the overall object. Rafale controls this shape carefully, and SPECTRA selectively cancels the major resonant frequencies, which results in a drastically reduced signature. Do you have any research studies that show the result of using AESA radars against this system? A multitude of frequencies doesn't matter if the geometric shape of the body is controlled to create a desired reflection. Now you can go and perform organic research, try to replicate this in a laboratory, use AESA radar against it, and if you get some results you can talk confidently. Otherwise, we have to place a question mark.

I am not coming up with my own set of assumptions, being pessimistic is a virtue, especially when you have a conniving enemy breathing down your neck.

 

[Dazzler]

Sir, there is a physical phenomenon known as fundamental frequency. Given a geometrical object, the reflected signal will have certain resonant frequencies determined by the shape of the overall object. Rafale controls this shape carefully, and SPECTRA selectively cancels the major resonant frequencies, which results in a drastically reduced signature. Do you have any research studies that show the result of using AESA radars against this system? A multitude of frequencies doesn't matter if the geometric shape of the body is controlled to create a desired reflection. Now you can go and perform organic research, try to replicate this in a laboratory, use AESA radar against it, and if you get some results you can talk confidently. Otherwise, we have to place a question mark.

I am not coming up with my own set of assumptions, being pessimistic is a virtue, especially when you have a conniving enemy breathing down your neck.

For starter, go through this:

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=27978

 

[CriticalThought]

For starter, go through this:

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=27978

I have looked at that previously. It's a bunch of anonymous people sharing their experience. We can't make war plans based on chatter on the internet. We need more understanding of the capabilities.

 

[Dazzler]

I have looked at that previously. It's a bunch of anonymous people sharing their experience. We can't make war plans based on chatter on the internet. We need more understanding of the capabilities.

Some of those are ex USAF retired veterans so they know what they are discussing.

Anyway, the whole concept of Spectra is to cancel the incoming threat, hence active cancellation. For spectra to work, it needs to have samples of pulse trains from the enemy radar. Each pulse train is a sample and spectra needs a sequence of those to work properly. Keep in mind that the radar can alter the pulse train by shutting itself, producing random pulses from time to time, making it difficult for spectra to detect and cancel the emitting signals.

This is against a mechanical, or conventional pulse doppler threat hence spectra may end up successful against them. Put in an AESA and spectra will go bonkers. Each TR module is a radar with frequency agile pulse trains emitting every milisecond. The frequencies are altered hundreds of time, overwhelming spectra to the extent that it will no longer work and starts giving out false readings.

Quoting @gambit

There are nine logical radars in ( c ). Each capable of performing independent action. An AESA radar looking for a SPECTRA equipped Rafale will find it through the use of multiple radars, from the same main array. The capability of the AESA is dependent upon the technological sophistication of the country wielding it, of course. There will no digital library possible for the SPECTRA to remember.

Hence, Rafale will become a toothless tiger against a quality AESA sensor. The notion of it getting obsolete is not at all far fetched.

 

[Basel]

There will be an across the fleet AESA upgrade on all blocks. The Block-III will feature a purpose built AESA radar, the other two blocks will be retrofitted.

Hope block-3 gets best AESA radar available not some low cost less capable AESA.

Yeah it could take a while. PAF would like to conduct a comparative test run on the available solutions to determine which system suits them the best and integrates all of the weapons they've got.




Actually the key selling point is AIM-120 AMRAAM integration through Vixen radar.

PAF is also looking for JHMCS integration on Thunders with 5th gen HOBS AAM like those Darters which just got certified.

Is vixen available or upgraded version Raven is available for JFT?

The original manufacturer of the JHMCS-series is Elbit in Israel. So if the PAF is looking to get the JHMCS, then it'll have to work through an intermediary, e.g., the US, UK, Italy or Brazil. It's plausible if the PAF had asked Leonardo to basically provide an end-to-end electronics solution for the JF-17 (Leonardo uses the Targo on the M-346).

If the PAF opts for the Vixen 1000E or Grifo-E, then it need not confine itself to the AIM-120C5, it can also push for MICA, MICA-NG or even Turkey's Merlin BVRAAM as well.

That said, I do think the Block-I and Block-II retrofit would benefit from a Chinese AESA radar. The PAF has a stockpile of SD-10 and C-802 AShM and the existing Block-I/II units have acclimated to those.

Why vixen and not raven?? How capable is Grifo-E compared to all other AESA radar options.

Everything is available with money.

PAF feels that AMRAAM, VIXEN, JHMCS, Darter combo is a good set of capabilities against Sukhois & Rafales.

It is good to have mix of tech so if one is compromised other do the job, and with western radar JFT will be able to get many western weapons like Brimstone, ASRAAM, Meteor, SOM etc.

 

[Dazzler]

Hope block-3 gets best AESA radar available not some low cost less capable AESA.

Is vixen available or upgraded version Raven is available for JFT?

Why vixen and not raven?? How capable is Grifo-E compared to all other AESA radar options.

It is good to have mix of tech so if one is compromised other do the job, and with western radar JFT will be able to get many western weapons like Brimstone, ASRAAM, Meteor, SOM etc.

Raven is customized Vixen 1000E for Gripen NG, not available for export. Essentially both are same bar a few differences.

Grifo E is at the bottom of the pit, small and least capable of all options.

 

[punit]

What edge will Rafale enjoy against an aesa equipped fighter?

Seems this AESA is not good enough for PAF...They are salivating for italian beauty..!!
For the rest Rafale is Superior in :
1. Range
2. Payload
3. Avionics
4. Weaponry.
5. Engjne
6. Look.

 

[Dazzler]

Seems this AESA is not good enough for PAF...They are salivating for italian beauty..!!
For the rest Rafale is Superior in :
1. Range
2. Payload
3. Avionics
4. Weaponry.
5. Engjne
6. Look.

Point.7 Fantasies

 

[punit]

Point.7 Fantasies

Na. U won that one by wide margin..We concede .

 

[Dazzler]

Na. U won that one by wide margin..We concede .

substantiate your claim of it being superior with evidence.

 

[punit]

substantiate your claim of it being superior with evidence.

Sir..As per my knowledge. Vs posts are not welcome .....
Rest u can search all those listed 5 paramerers on Google for JF 17 and rafale. It's not that hard.
By the way are guys going for chinese AESA or italian ?

 

[Silicon0000]

Sir,
With due respect over the years spoken to many PAF officials regarding what exactly are the JF-17's going to replace and how many would Pakistan be procuring for her own needs, no one was sure about this.

The best answer was PAF would not procure more than 150 JF-17's as we will also be procuring 50-75 F-16's new and old.

Today with the doors closed for F-16's were does PAF stands?

In my opinion there are mainly three (3) probabilities:
1) ADD more JF-17's.
2) Procure J-10
3) Any European fighter aircraft.

OPTION 1) JF-17.
Adding 150 JF-17's block 3 along with new production facility with a Western package + 100 JF-17 block 3 with Chinese package.
This would make PAF rely too much on JF-17...But the bright side would be PAF will no longer remain 60/40 partner but 90/10 partner.

OPTION 2) J-10
Procure 150 J-10 with Chinese package + Upgrade JF-17 with Western package + F-16s.
This will be a force multiplier however the source of aircraft would still remain Chinese.

OPTION 3) EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON
Procure 70-110 EFT of various tranche and JF-17s can be upgraded by Chinese package.

PAF future is only F-16, JF-17 block xyz & B variant and Project AZM FGF (Different variant/ blocks).

PAF will keep making/upgrading JF-17 till FGF production starts.

Rest (J10, F31, EFT etc) all are only in case of need things.