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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

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Cookie Monster said:
What happened in the past happened whether due to incompetence or limited resources or lack of experience or any combination of these factors among many more. The point is JF17 is here...the very first step that Pakistan took at having its own fighter jet. There are lessons to be learned even in failures(not calling JF17 a failure...but any shortcomings can also serve as a lesson for the future).

What we can do now is look to the future...about how JF17 can be improved to fulfill more and more needs(in later blocks) or if it's simply not feasible then project Azm can take that up. There's no time machine through which we can fix the past mistakes/circumstances...so instead of members here arguing/bashing each other over that...let's move on and discuss something constructive.
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Jf-17 was to be second tier mass produced aircraft as making a first tier aircarft or even j10 like second tier aircraft(more range payload) would have been unaffordable and thus an automatic failure ..even jf-17 which half of the price of what some people want was very difficult to finance during zardari era and was almost shelved...
 
ziaulislam said:
Jf-17 was to be second tier mass produced aircraft as making a first tier aircarft or even j10 like second tier aircraft(more range payload) would have been unaffordable and thus an automatic failure ..even jf-17 which half of the price of what some people want was very difficult to finance during zardari era and was almost shelved...
Click to expand...
According to Wikipedia(not extremely reliable source but that's all I could find)...
- JF17 program cost is listed at 5 billion USD
I assume that's the total cost for the entirety of JF17's development

J10 program cost is listed as "0.5 billion RMB allocated in 1982"...if we convert this to USD at 1982 exchange rate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_renminbi_exchange_rates
...it comes out to be 2,642,007.93 USD. Let's just round it to 3 million USD for the sake of simplicity. Also it says that's how much was allocated in 1982...and often times there are cost over runs so I wouldn't be surprised if in the end the total amount was much higher than 3 million USD for the cost of J10's develoment. Still though I wouldn't expect it to be that much different than that 5 billion USD figure for JF17's development.

So yes both Pak/China could've stuck with one program(J10) and IMO it would've been better for both of them in the long run. Even the unit cost doesn't seem all that different between the two...
...on those same Wikipedia pages it lists the unit cost(in 2010) for J10 at $27.84 million. Compared to $25 million of JF17 block I, which was being produced in 2010.

I think a major reason for that deviation for the end goal both had in mind is that when JF17 program began Pak didn't foresee falling out of US favor and ending up mostly into China's camp. F16s were to be the first tier and JF17 was envisioned as the second tier to make up numbers. Moreover Pak could add to it Western avionics and weaponry and have a cheap mini F16 in numbers.
China was mainly looking to create a competitor to Su27 and F16(top tiers of their era) bcuz it was somewhat at odds with USSR and the west...and didn't want to rely on western avionics for obvious reasons. Hence J10 was born.

In any case...the whole point of my post was that let's not dwell on the past. Learn from it and move on.
 
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Cookie Monster said:
According to Wikipedia(not extremely reliable source but that's all I could find)...
- JF17 program cost is listed at 5 billion USD
I assume that's the total cost for the entirety of JF17's development

J10 program cost is listed as "0.5 billion RMB allocated in 1982"...if we convert this to USD at 1982 exchange rate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_renminbi_exchange_rates
...it comes out to be 2,642,007.93 USD. Let's just round it to 3 million USD for the sake of simplicity. Also it says that's how much was allocated in 1982...and often times there are cost over runs so I wouldn't be surprised if in the end the total amount was much higher than 3 million USD for the cost of J10's develoment. Still though I wouldn't expect it to be that much different than that 5 billion USD figure for JF17's development.

So yes both Pak/China could've stuck with one program(J10) and IMO it would've been better for both of them in the long run. Even the unit cost doesn't seem all that different between the two...
...on those same Wikipedia pages it lists the unit cost(in 2010) for J10 at $27.84 million. Compared to $25 million of JF17 block I, which was being produced in 2010.

I think a major reason for that deviation for the end goal both had in mind is that when JF17 program began Pak didn't foresee falling out of US favor and mostly into China's camp. F16s were to be the first tier and JF17 was foreseen as the second tier to make up numbers. Moreover Pak can add to it Western avionics and weaponry and have a cheap mini F16 in numbers.
China was mainly looking to create a competitor to Su27 and F16(top tiers of their era) and didn't want to rely on western avionics for obvious reasons. Hence J10 was born.

In any case...the whole point of my post was that let's not dwell on the past. Learn from it and move on.
Click to expand...
Lets be honest j10 cost shouldn't be used as benchmark but jf17 should ..the scope was small and new for pakistan. ..for starters just the russian engine whose availability was not 100% would have cost 3-4 million more
 
Cookie Monster said:
According to Wikipedia(not extremely reliable source but that's all I could find)...
- JF17 program cost is listed at 5 billion USD
I assume that's the total cost for the entirety of JF17's development

J10 program cost is listed as "0.5 billion RMB allocated in 1982"...if we convert this to USD at 1982 exchange rate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_renminbi_exchange_rates
...it comes out to be 2,642,007.93 USD. Let's just round it to 3 million USD for the sake of simplicity. Also it says that's how much was allocated in 1982...and often times there are cost over runs so I wouldn't be surprised if in the end the total amount was much higher than 3 million USD for the cost of J10's develoment. Still though I wouldn't expect it to be that much different than that 5 billion USD figure for JF17's development.

So yes both Pak/China could've stuck with one program(J10) and IMO it would've been better for both of them in the long run. Even the unit cost doesn't seem all that different between the two...
...on those same Wikipedia pages it lists the unit cost(in 2010) for J10 at $27.84 million. Compared to $25 million of JF17 block I, which was being produced in 2010.

I think a major reason for that deviation for the end goal both had in mind is that when JF17 program began Pak didn't foresee falling out of US favor and mostly into China's camp. F16s were to be the first tier and JF17 was foreseen as the second tier to make up numbers. Moreover Pak can add to it Western avionics and weaponry and have a cheap mini F16 in numbers.
China was mainly looking to create a competitor to Su27 and F16(top tiers of their era) and didn't want to rely on western avionics for obvious reasons. Hence J10 was born.

In any case...the whole point of my post was that let's not dwell on the past. Learn from it and move on.
Click to expand...

Very good points in this post.
 
ziaulislam said:
Lets be honest j10 cost shouldn't be used as benchmark but jf17 should ..the scope was small and new for pakistan. ..for starters just the russian engine whose availability was not 100% would have cost 3-4 million more
Click to expand...
I'm not using the J10's program cost as the benchmark. I'm comparing the program cost of JF17 with that of J10 bcuz u said it would've been unaffordable for Pak. IMO the difference isn't that extreme. Taking into account all the corruption and lack of funds...if Pak can afford JF17 it could've afforded J10.

Unlike others however I don't blame PAF leadership who initiated Super 7(which became JF17) bcuz they couldn't foresee that J10 would be a successful program. They also couldn't foresee a change in geostrategic relationships between US/Pak and China/Pak.

If anything Pak should learn from this and try its best to have China on board with project Azm in the sense that both end up acquiring the next gen fighter. China can use those as replacement for its J10s as it phases them out in the future. This will not only help in terms of unit cost due to massive numbers being produced but also automatically increase interoperability between PLAAF and PAF.
 
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Cookie Monster said:
I'm not using the J10's program cost as the benchmark. I'm comparing the program cost of JF17 with that of J10 bcuz u said it would've been unaffordable for Pak. IMO the difference isn't that extreme. Taking into account all the corruption and lack of funds...if Pak can afford JF17 it could've afforded J10.

Unlike others however I don't blame PAF leadership who initiated Super 7(which became JF17) bcuz they couldn't foresee that J10 would be a successful program. They also couldn't foresee a change in geostrategic relationships between US/Pak and China/Pak.

If anything Pak should learn from this and try its best to have China on board with project Azm in the sense that both end up acquiring the next gen fighter. China can use those as replacement for its J10s as it phases them out in the future. This will not only help in terms of unit cost due to massive numbers being produced but also automatically increase interoperability between PLAAF and PAF.
Click to expand...
My point is jf17 is unaffordable and is being run with loans..even cost escalation of couple of million would make it unaffordable ..just adding the engine cost it becomes 5-6 million more expensive !

J10 is cheaper(still at fly awaycost of 40m or so) because of well established chinese large scale production it wouldn't have been this cheap if done by PAC
 
ziaulislam said:
My point is jf17 is unaffordable and is being run with loans..even cost escalation of couple of million would make it unaffordable ..just adding the engine cost it becomes 5-6 million more expensive !
Click to expand...
If our corrupt leadership can justify buying a fighter jet that costs $25 million on loans while they bankrupt the country then why can't they also justify buying one at $27 million?

J10 also used a Russian engine at first...before China started using WS10.
ziaulislam said:
J10 is cheaper(still at fly awaycost of 40m or so) because of well established chinese large scale production it wouldn't have been this cheap if done by PAC
Click to expand...
This is exactly the point I was making...had Pak/China stuck to developing just the J10(not J10 and JF17) then both would've benefitted with economies of scale. Pak was better off going for J10 in comparison to going for JF17. However that wasn't apparent at the time to PAF when Super 7 project was started.
 
Cookie Monster said:
If our corrupt leadership can justify buying a fighter jet that costs $25 million on loans while they bankrupt the country then why can't they also justify buying one at $27 million?

J10 also used a Russian engine at first...before China started using WS10.

This is exactly the point I was making...had Pak/China stuck to developing just the J10(not J10 and JF17) then both would've benefitted with economies of scale. Pak was better off going for J10 in comparison to going for JF17. However that wasn't apparent at the time to PAF when Super 7 project was started.
Click to expand...
chiba wouldn't have agreed to Joint fighter in their mainstay fighter
 

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