JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[mylovepakistan]

Eurofighter with its PD radar a few years back locked f22 from certain angle in exercise ... AESA so far has provided only Decrease in RCS ... in the beginning pakistani officials only stated that they might induct AESA soon was because there were wrong info about this radar in the beginning ... klj7v2 has 130 km for 5m^2
so i am pretty sure with this Radar jf17 will be 100% able to detect and engage Su30mki sized targets ... jf17 has been believed to carry only 4000kg of payload which means not much missiles which wont increase rcs more than 3 still badluck for SU30MKi and if u say SU30MKI is this and that honestly RED flag Clearly admitted that TVC is useless in Dogfight though it was believed that it can evade missile by outmaneuvering but THat is also wrong since 5th generation missile have G value of at least 35g and proximity blasting capability which means missiles blasts not on impact but calculates that when it reaches the most nearest position to aircraft and as the distance increases it blasts with fragmentation system of missiles to create a 360 angle blast it is 90sure% it will atleast destroy the wing or ailerons of the wing which then make aircraft not to manuever properly which anyway make them sitting ducks ... I am not saying jf17 will defeat SU30MKI but MKI is 32 million dollar plane and honestly it is because of it has 2 engines with TVC , bigger body and structure to have more amount of payload the block2 is 23 mn$ plane atleast with ratio of engine , size and payload i think JF17 seems expensive as same as mkI ...

according to kanwa report the KLJ on board block 1 has 130 km against 5m2 after tweaking the range,

expect some more from KLJv2

 

[Arsalan]

Isnt it the single most important factor sir....Survivability? To detect others without giving away your position gives you the edge, all you need to take the enemy down

yes, it is..
but sir, i think you didnt read the complete post..

yes!
and its not about locking or not being able to lock on.. the main advantage is that it can detect threats without giving away its position EASILY... the thing we dont work or read or learn about is how DIFFICULT it will be to do so.. to detect the AESA...

no questions AESA offer advantages but this DO NOT mean that pulse Dopler, PESA or others are obsolete and of no use..

thing is, AESA claims that it is not easy to detect, this is the point where most of us stop studying and start asking for an AESA for our JFT. the thing is, HOW DIFFICULT it is to detect the AESA?? how much this "not easy to detect" is true and achievable..

i think i was not able to explain myself clearly in first post and now you will be able to understand what i am trying to say.

best regards!

 

[gambit]

Actually people here think is that Pulse doppler cannot lock AESA ....They are indeed wrong ....

No. YOU are wrong.

Pulse Doppler is not exactly a type of radar but more like a MODE of radar operation. Technically speaking, any radar can be a PD provided the system is designed, hardware or software or both, to detect and process the Doppler component of any moving object. An AESA system may or may not be capable of processing that Doppler component.

The confusion here is understandable by the casual usage of the phrase 'Pulse Doppler', especially by TV weathermen. A Pulse Doppler radar system is a radar system where its PRIMARY focus is the Doppler component of any moving object. Radar altimeter is an exploitation of the Doppler component.

So in essence, your post is meaningless. Sorry.

yes, it is..
but sir, i think you didnt read the complete post..


thing is, AESA claims that it is not easy to detect, this is the point where most of us stop studying and start asking for an AESA for our JFT. the thing is, HOW DIFFICULT it is to detect the AESA?? how much this "not easy to detect" is true and achievable..

i think i was not able to explain myself clearly in first post and now you will be able to understand what i am trying to say.

best regards!

How difficult or how easy it is to detect an AESA transmission is not different than from non-AESA transmissions: Depends on the output.

The important thing about military radar operation versus civilian usage is that the military tries not to use more transmission power than what is necessary at that time. Hardware sophistication help and the AESA technology is a great help. An AESA system will transmit only what is necessary and because it is a more efficient system overall, the transmission will be far less powerful but can still achieve the same detection resolutions: speed, altitude, heading and aspect angle.

And that led to the correct belief that an AESA system is more difficult to detect while it is seeking you.

 

[Jako]

No. YOU are wrong.

Pulse Doppler is not exactly a type of radar but more like a MODE of radar operation. Technically speaking, any radar can be a PD provided the system is designed, hardware or software or both, to detect and process the Doppler component of any moving object. An AESA system may or may not be capable of processing that Doppler component.

The confusion here is understandable by the casual usage of the phrase 'Pulse Doppler', especially by TV weathermen. A Pulse Doppler radar system is a radar system where its PRIMARY focus is the Doppler component of any moving object. Radar altimeter is an exploitation of the Doppler component.

So in essence, your post is meaningless. Sorry.


How difficult or how easy it is to detect an AESA transmission is not different than from non-AESA transmissions: Depends on the output.

The important thing about military radar operation versus civilian usage is that the military tries not to use more transmission power than what is necessary at that time. Hardware sophistication help and the AESA technology is a great help. An AESA system will transmit only what is necessary and because it is a more efficient system overall, the transmission will be far less powerful but can still achieve the same detection resolutions: speed, altitude, heading and aspect angle.

And that led to the correct belief that an AESA system is more difficult to detect while it is seeking you.

Not actually the output power my friend but it is 1 reason. I would like to share my understanding of the subject. you see less power output I think is not the right answer to an extent, but its mainly because of the use of TRMs in AESA.
A pulse doppler radar or a basic PESA radar has a single energy source thus each individual antenna of the array produce beams of the SAME FREQUENCY with the phase tweaked to form sub-beams.
But my friend the frequency remains the same and it stands out of the BACKGROUND NOISE making it easy to detect by an RWR.And as a single source is used individual antennas of the array cant be operated individually as required.
But in the case of AESA each TRM(transmitter-reciever module) has its own energy source thus they can produce beams of different frequencies. Each TRM can be considered as individual RADARs in literal sense. Now as the same source uses beams & sub-beams of different frequencies they are quite difficult to be extracted from air with perfection due the presence of other frequency beams which are already there from other sources . An RWR thus fails to identify the location of the RADAR because it cant single out the RADAR's different frequencies. And adding to that individual TRms can be used for differnt purposes and shut off if required!


Drawing an analogy,if I am a RADAR and i am to find the distance to the wall infront of me, i throw a ball at it and when it bounces back at me i calculate the distance knowing the speed of the ball and the time taken. Now if the wall somehow is replaced by a man, he can catch my ball and know my location. But if I am an aesa radar I throw multiple balls at him and he gets confused about which is really mine,if i am throwing 1 ball,2 balls,multiple balls,which balls are of importance etc. And from here comes the AESA's LPI actually.

 

[alimobin memon]

No. YOU are wrong.

Pulse Doppler is not exactly a type of radar but more like a MODE of radar operation. Technically speaking, any radar can be a PD provided the system is designed, hardware or software or both, to detect and process the Doppler component of any moving object. An AESA system may or may not be capable of processing that Doppler component.

The confusion here is understandable by the casual usage of the phrase 'Pulse Doppler', especially by TV weathermen. A Pulse Doppler radar system is a radar system where its PRIMARY focus is the Doppler component of any moving object. Radar altimeter is an exploitation of the Doppler component.

So in essence, your post is meaningless. Sorry.


How difficult or how easy it is to detect an AESA transmission is not different than from non-AESA transmissions: Depends on the output.

The important thing about military radar operation versus civilian usage is that the military tries not to use more transmission power than what is necessary at that time. Hardware sophistication help and the AESA technology is a great help. An AESA system will transmit only what is necessary and because it is a more efficient system overall, the transmission will be far less powerful but can still achieve the same detection resolutions: speed, altitude, heading and aspect angle.

And that led to the correct belief that an AESA system is more difficult to detect while it is seeking you.

Mr. straight Forward .... It is difficult to detect because it decreases overall RCS of Aircraft as the signals are emit this AESA Emits only important one to detect and keep itself in Suppression ... Ok ... i agree but The AESA is not invisible yet Pulse Doppler Radar ofcourse works on Doppler Effect (the relation b/w source and sound) so in the end Doppler is still able to detect and aircraft sorry Your point is also meaning less because all i Said was ..... (Doppler can detect The Aesa Radar) because Aesa overall decreases radar cross section of an aicraft which makes aircraft less visible not completely invisible {peace}
Thanks Jako for further clearing

 

[Viper0011.]

Not actually the output power my friend but it is 1 reason. I would like to share my understanding of the subject. you see less power output I think is not the right answer to an extent, but its mainly because of the use of TRMs in AESA.
A pulse doppler radar or a basic PESA radar has a single energy source thus each individual antenna of the array produce beams of the SAME FREQUENCY with the phase tweaked to form sub-beams.
But my friend the frequency remains the same and it stands out of the BACKGROUND NOISE making it easy to detect by an RWR.And as a single source is used individual antennas of the array cant be operated individually as required.
But in the case of AESA each TRM(transmitter-reciever module) has its own energy source thus they can produce beams of different frequencies. Each TRM can be considered as individual RADARs in literal sense. Now as the same source uses beams & sub-beams of different frequencies they are quite difficult to be extracted from air with perfection due the presence of other frequency beams which are already there from other sources . An RWR thus fails to identify the location of the RADAR because it cant single out the RADAR's different frequencies. And adding to that individual TRms can be used for differnt purposes and shut off if required!

Both you and gambit are saying correct things within the AESA radar's mechanics. Some of the KEY reasons why it is considered to be less detectable and provides more durability against ECM / Jamming / Locking is due to the capability of broad spectrum and frequency hopping. YET, control that broad spectrum into a narrow spectrum when needed. In other words, expand, minimize, control and focus energy transmission according to the needs at any given time.

A plane loaded with ECM / jamming equipment can identify the radiation coming towards it (painting) but it can't identify or lock onto a specific energy source as the frequency keeps changing and / or the strength of incoming signal keeps changes. Due to which, the detector sensors will have a hard time in identifying radar's location, time, wavelength format, etc, etc. As there could be multiple broad spectrum frequencies painting it in a rotating format. But then, you may have one out of those 25 frequencies (for example) actually locking on to you or maintaining an existing lock. Additionally, you may get hit with many signals of different types and before you can track the origination mechanism, there may be nothing there anymore as the radar reduced or changed the energy output or 'hopped' on to a different spectrum all together.

 

[Jako]

Mr. straight Forward .... It is difficult to detect because it decreases overall RCS of Aircraft as the signals are emit this AESA Emits only important one to detect and keep itself in Suppression ... Ok ... i agree but The AESA is not invisible yet Pulse Doppler Radar ofcourse works on Doppler Effect (the relation b/w source and sound) so in the end Doppler is still able to detect and aircraft sorry Your point is also meaning less because all i Said was ..... (Doppler can detect The Aesa Radar) because Aesa overall decreases radar cross section of an aicraft which makes aircraft less visible not completely invisible {peace}
Thanks Jako for further clearing

well,AESA radar also work on doppler effect!
check my previous post,its only that they use multiple frequency beams while doing so due to the presence of TRM unlike a normal pulse doppler or basic PESA!
The principle is still the same, i,e hearing echoes!
Dont go by the name,it doesn't change the basic working principle!
A-active- AFAIK signifies the presence of different energy sources for individual TRM's.
E-with advancement in electronics gallium arsenide makes the reciever & JFET or MOSFET the transmitter part of a TRM.
SA-scanned array.
Each TRM if used seperately are actually small pulse doppler radars!

 

[alimobin memon]

well,AESA radar also work on doppler effect!
check my previous post,its only that they use multiple frequency beams while doing so due to the presence of TRM unlike a normal pulse doppler or basic PESA!
The principle is still the same, i,e hearing echoes!
Dont go by the name,it doesn't change the basic working principle!
A-active- AFAIK signifies the presence of different energy sources for individual TRM's.
E-with advancement in electronics gallium arsenide makes the reciever & JFET or MOSFET the transmitter part of a TRM.
SA-scanned array.
Each TRM if used seperately are actually small pulse doppler radars!

My friend X-band Radar with mechanical array antenna still I am saying it is at some "Extent" able to detect Aesa Radar Happy now... Even Aesa is still not much stealthy for example I hope u know AN/ALR-94 in F22 is used for Whole Operation and F22's Aesa is turned off when in battlefield so that it cannot be detect ... This is very tiny example that Aesa is still detectable

 

[Jako]

Both you and gambit are saying correct things within the AESA radar's mechanics. Some of the KEY reasons why it is considered to be less detectable and provides more durability against ECM / Jamming / Locking is due to the capability of broad spectrum and frequency hopping. YET, control that broad spectrum into a narrow spectrum when needed. In other words, expand, minimize, control and focus energy transmission according to the needs at any given time.

A plane loaded with ECM / jamming equipment can identify the radiation coming towards it (painting) but it can't identify or lock onto a specific energy source as the frequency keeps changing and / or the strength of incoming signal keeps changes. Due to which, the detector sensors will have a hard time in identifying radar's location, time, wavelength format, etc, etc. As there could be multiple broad spectrum frequencies painting it in a rotating format. But then, you may have one out of those 25 frequencies (for example) actually locking on to you or maintaining an existing lock. Additionally, you may get hit with many signals of different types and before you can track the origination mechanism, there may be nothing there anymore as the radar reduced or changed the energy output or 'hopped' on to a different spectrum all together.

Well thanx for further explanation mate.
That is exactly what i tried to convey,though i went through the basics mostly.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Ever heard of the the term LPI? Low probablity of intercept.....which actually means you can intercept the AESA radar but doing it has a low probablity. That is all.

 

[ziaulislam]

jf-17 primary purpose for now, will be tackle the other fourth gen aircrfts...
and it would also have some cover of AESA AWACS, so that could be the reason for which PAF didnt opted for it..

it will be intersting to see whether PAF will go for further 100 once 150 are completed?

 

[mylovepakistan]

sorry off topic but any one please tell me,is super sukhoi going to have stealth features or will the RCS remain same as of current MKI ??

again sorry for off topic post,

 

[SBD-3]

An interview on how effective and lethal C-802 is......
The Secret History Part II: The C-802 Cruise Missile - YouTube

 

[Pak47]

Read the first post of this page and then u will find ur compatriot claiming that JF17 will be to Su30 in combat situation. I merely corrected him.

I don't understand why are u getting so much heartburn??? If there is no point in arguing with me, then why are u doing it?? I never invited u here in the first place.

And if you think my claim is wrong then prove it rather talking offtopic. U are actually the one who is boring me.

Haha, i smell fire..

Okay very well then.. Let us begin

mki's radar uses N-011M Bars which has a range of 140 km for for 5m2 not 400..

now considering an air to air role.. the RCS increases..

So 30 will have a RCS of around 18m2
While thunder will have a Rcs of 3m2

So Su 30 will detect a jf-17 at around 125 Km's while Jf17 will detect mki at around 145 km considering its huge RCS.


Your flawed logic of Thunder standing no chance is not true.

 

[ziaulislam]

regardlessly who locks who and when..both can only fire at each other at 100km and can only hope for any purposeful lock and kill if within 50km

also we are ignoring ECM factor jamming each other radar and BVR missle will be an important factor