JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Is current Squadron of JF-17 BVR capable and if not why ? When will JF-17 be fitted with BVR in future?

 

[khurasaan1]

Hi,
the concerns mentioned above by Mr Mastan are pretty valid but one must not forget that when we talk about India-Pakistan confrontation we tend to forget the Nuclear environment the concept of an all out war in a nuclear environment is highly dubious as it could be more devastating than the belligerents predictions, So if sanity prevails no state would want that to happen no matter how much numerical or qualitative edge you got over your enemy, secondly there are lots of limitations to this much talked about indian concept of limited war as no one knows when it might escalate, for a country like Pakistan whose primary deterrence is nuclear weapons, the scenario involving BVRMS seem highly unlikely.
P.S in the light of the current confidence building measures between India & Pakistan the threat of an imminent war can be over ruled, but one must stay prepared & for that i guess we are on right track.

Alhamdolillah , you are absolutely true about that ..it is highly unlikey for the India to do any kind of misadventure against pak..cuz due to nuclear deterance. India can only dream about it.They are thinking maybe the fifth generation fighterz might help them ..but inshallah that will be in vain too.They will just going to waste their money by listening to other countries.

 

[razgriz19]

Is current Squadron of JF-17 BVR capable and if not why ? When will JF-17 be fitted with BVR in future?

some will say yes and some will say no but the reality is no one really knows anything..
im just waiting for that day when pictures of jf-17 with sd-10 would start to show up on internet!

 

[khurasaan1]

Is current Squadron of JF-17 BVR capable and if not why ? When will JF-17 be fitted with BVR in future?

Alhamdolillah ,yes they are ...you can check it in wikipedia and PAC kamra website too.

 

[Bossman]

Hi,

PAF loves to play games---and when it falls down on its face---it has a thousand and one excuses---it is always somebody else to take the blame----it is always someone else who is at fault---it is always someone else who is not playing by the rules.

JF 17 is a wonderful plane----but who needs it today----when the primary need of the hour is BVR and BVR equipped planes alone.

Paf has apeared at a loss when it comes to thinking and reacting on its feet in time. It is always a day late and pound short---.

When you go take and exam----and you have studied for it---it is always reccomended that the first answer that comes to the mind is the right answer. Everything after that is the mind playing tricks.

Same thing----when we initially agreed that JF 17 was not what was needed---we were absolutely correct---what PAF did after that was trying to cover its mistake---and the deception that it had created amonsgt the pakistanis to justify the purchase begins to get into the realm of CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE.

All the explanations that they have come out are no more than coverups for their blunders and poor analysis in trying to coax the civilians into believing that PAF is on the right track.

And we the civilians---we cannot be condemning our flyers all the time and have to follow suite---we have been screwed one more time by our very own---it is not a surprise anymore---we are used to it by now---so---take it easy and enjoy---.

It really surprises me of the mindset of my countrymen----the enemy is adding up on the BVR capable planes by 100's and what do we have----we only have 4 of them only and only 4----and those 4's can only be used in a defencive strike mode----read all the statements of the ACM---nowhere it mentions about offencive BVR strike of blk 52'2 across border.

All the spin---all the statements are going round and round in defending our resources by every means possible---that is what the U S is also agreeing to---they have allowed us to use these birds in a defencive mode against any incoming strikes----but we cannot use the bvr's against any offencive strikes that we make across the border on our own. That is what my interpretation is.

Now---coming back to the JF 17 again---it would of a tremendous asset to the airforce---but when I am asking for a .50 calibre rifle---you are justifying me by handing me over a .308---that is not acceptable and must not be justified.

Khan Sahib,

The crux of your long winded post is that JF17 is waste of time and money because it is not BVR capable and we cannot use BVRs on F16s. Can you please elaborate how you came to this conclusion? Can you also explain why PAF has ordered hundreds of AMRAAMS and SD-10s? With delivery of the 18 blk 52 and MLU of existing F16s to near blk 52 calssification plus 150 odd JF17s, PAF will have around 235 BVR capable aircraft over the next 5 years or so and I am not even inlcuding the J-10Bs. Please support your statements with facts and just not opinions.

 

[Areesh]

Is current Squadron of JF-17 BVR capable and if not why ? When will JF-17 be fitted with BVR in future?

Is current Squadron of JF-17 BVR capable

Most probably they are BVR capable.

and if not why

And if they aren't may be because the first 50 are going to replace ground attack aircraft A-5.

When will JF-17 be fitted with BVR in future?

Yes surely they will be and very effective and efficient one in future inshaAllah.

 

[Bossman]

Is current Squadron of JF-17 BVR capable and if not why ? When will JF-17 be fitted with BVR in future?

The current squadron of JF 17 is not BVR capable for good reasons. JF17 is a multirole aircraft and PAF opted for a low risk option for the first squadron that is to go for a CAS role. Also the need the greater in the ground attack role as the A5s are coming to the end of their life cycle and needed replacement. Currently there is a greater need for ground attack than BVR capabilities. Also intial aircrafts came with KLJ7 radar which will be replaced KLJ10 which is comptatible with the SD-10 BVR missile. KLJ10 are the same radars as in J-10 but the size of their antennas have to be modified to fit in JF17's nose cone. The modifications are complete and the KLJ10 for JF17s are in production. Most things are schedule so not need to be alarmed. There are a lot of people on the net who don't know what they are talking about and go around pretending to be experts.

 

[Kompromat]

The current squadron of JF 17 is not BVR capable for good reasons. JF17 is a multirole aircraft and PAF opted for a low risk option for the first squadron that is to opt for a CAS role. Also the need the greater in the ground attack role as the A5s are coming to the end of their life cycle and needed replacement. Current conditions there is a greater need for ground attack than BVR capabilities. Also intial aircrafts come with KLJ7 radar which will be replaced KLJ10 which is comptatible with the SD-10 BVR missile. KLJ10 are the same radars as in J-10 but the size of their antennas have to be modified to fit in JF17's nose cone. The modifications are complete and the KLJ10 for JF17s are in production. Most things are schedule so not need to be alarmed. There are a lot of people on the net who don't know what they are talking about and go around pretending to be experts.

KLJ-10 has already been tested and would be installed before we go for an AESA radar for the Next Block.

Reports suggest that PAF is now negotiating Vixen-1000ES AESA Radar which is as much capable of any radar around in the world.

Vixen will also be installed on Gripen NG , Earlier Vixen -500E was refused by PAF because of its short range.

Cheers

 

[MastanKhan]

The current squadron of JF 17 is not BVR capable for good reasons. JF17 is a multirole aircraft and PAF opted for a low risk option for the first squadron that is to go for a CAS role. Also the need the greater in the ground attack role as the A5s are coming to the end of their life cycle and needed replacement. Currently there is a greater need for ground attack than BVR capabilities.


Hi,

That is a very good analysis of the situation regarding the jf 17. It also adjusts well with pakistan's current posture---pakistan doesnot want to change the balance of power at the moment---they want to make a committment to the cause of WOT---and the need of the moment is ground attack aircraft---. They are putting the BLK 52 in operation right now and the JF 17 will follow suite in ground strike missions.

There is a live battle field at hand---a battlefield at high altitude as well---the war against an extremely vicious and deadly enemy---who is not afraid to die---and not afraid to kill the opponent either---.

This truly is a tremendous training ground for the pak millitary as well as the air force---pak millitary is getting a battle hardened force with first hand experience of the battlefield----an army that is fighting a war at a higher ground---could any milltary living in a constant fear of war against an enemy the size of india ask for more---.

And on top of all that---all the troops in the pak millitary are working on a rotational basis---including the air force---it opens up some very very interesting and intriguing scenarios.

 

[Bossman]

The current squadron of JF 17 is not BVR capable for good reasons. JF17 is a multirole aircraft and PAF opted for a low risk option for the first squadron that is to go for a CAS role. Also the need the greater in the ground attack role as the A5s are coming to the end of their life cycle and needed replacement. Currently there is a greater need for ground attack than BVR capabilities.


Hi,

That is a very good analysis of the situation regarding the jf 17. It also adjusts well with pakistan's current posture---pakistan doesnot want to change the balance of power at the moment---they want to make a committment to the cause of WOT---and the need of the moment is ground attack aircraft---. They are putting the BLK 52 in operation right now and the JF 17 will follow suite in ground strike missions.

There is a live battle field at hand---a battlefield at high altitude as well---the war against an extremely vicious and deadly enemy---who is not afraid to die---and not afraid to kill the opponent either---.

This truly is a tremendous training ground for the pak millitary as well as the air force---pak millitary is getting a battle hardened force with first hand experience of the battlefield----an army that is fighting a war at a higher ground---could any milltary living in a constant fear of war against an enemy the size of india ask for more---.

And on top of all that---all the troops in the pak millitary are working on a rotational basis---including the air force---it opens up some very very interesting and intriguing scenarios.

Khan Sahib,

Lets keep our focus on the the topic at hand and not go on a tangent. Can you please explain why you think that JF17 is a bad idea and what is the alternate?

But you do raise some interesting ideas so while you are at it please also share with the rest of us the "intriguing scenarios" you are talking about. BTW which high altitude battle field are you talking about and why is Pak Army living in constant fear of India?

Thanks.

 

[MastanKhan]

Khan Sahib,

The crux of your long winded post is that JF17 is waste of time and money because it is not BVR capable and we cannot use BVRs on F16s. Can you please elaborate how you came to this conclusion? Can you also explain why PAF has ordered hundreds of AMRAAMS and SD-10s? With delivery of the 18 blk 52 and MLU of existing F16s to near blk 52 calssification plus 150 odd JF17s, PAF will have around 235 BVR capable aircraft over the next 5 years or so and I am not even inlcuding the J-10Bs. Please support your statements with facts and just not opinions.

Hi,

Thankyou for your post sir---and thanks for joining the forum as well.

I got you out of your bed to get you to participate and join us on this board---I thankyou very much for that.

First of all you missed my point---jf 17 is not a waste of money---only its timing is not the best.

You have to ask this question---why does pakistan need an air force---and if it does----who does it need to fly combat against----does pakistan air force live in ETHER or does it live and breath in the real world right next to hindustan. If it knows that hindustan is our real enemy in the region and all it has is a 200 plus aircraft with BVR capabilities---then what is a prudent reply to the cause---a cause that gave you the oppurtunity to fill in the gap since 9/11/2001.

This discussion has ben going on for many a months---so might want to read into it before you get deep into the discussion.

Your last statement is very silly---'about statements and opinions '---you didnot need that---you have asked me a question and you should have waited for the reply---and it is my discretion how to respond to your querry.

Sir---in you very first post----you are not allowed to set he rules and standards of the discussion---that is my prerogative.

You started off very good but when you brought in SD 10 and Amraam's into the equation----you slipped.

First of all--sd 10 is in its developmental stage at this time---the missile is neither completely operational and nor it has proven its versatility against any adversity---so basically it is in the rara stage as of now.

Secondly----the range of sd 10 is somewhere about 60 km max AND THE 90% KILL RATIO IS WITHIN 30 to 40 km.

Are you getting my drift right now---I am talking about physics---I am not that proficient with the computers otherwise draw a picture of the plane with sd 10 and it max range and kill range----can any member do that right now---.

The counter part---ie the enemy has bvr's with max range of 100 km with a 90 % kill ratio coming close to 60 km---I have explained it many atimes and I think a prudent guy like you gets my drift.

Now----on the other hand---the amraam is a totally diferent item----its 90%+ kill ratio range is close to 80--100km.

You are talking about 235 aircraft by the year 2015----my good kid----my time clock started on 9/12/2001---close to that number of planes we should have had by the years 2005---if not that number than at least a 100 aircraft in 2005 bvr capable.

Pakistan had every oppurtunity and all the cash available to make the purchase way before the kashmir earthquake---they had the pick of the liter---it was due to the paf's shenanigan's that we got stuck in muck---.

You people simple don't get it----you people simply cannot comprehend it that technically our air force should have been at the stage in 2005 that it is going to be in the year 2015---.

PAF has again blundered into putting us another 10 years behind the enemy---.

They screwed up with the mirage 2k purchase in 1982-84---they screwed up again in 1993---95----. Everyone of those oppurtunities would have put us at 80 % par with the IAF---we would have competed with iaf mano amano 80 times out of 100.

The M2k purchase in 82---84 would have totally blown the IAF out of the picture.

Today we are not even at 5 % of that capability----. In 2015---we would be barely at 50% strength compatibility.

 

[MastanKhan]

Khan Sahib,

Lets keep our focus on the the topic at hand and not go on a tangent. Can you please explain why you think that JF17 is a bad idea and what is the alternate?

But you do raise some interesting ideas so while you are at it please also share with the rest of us the "intriguing scenarios" you are talking about. BTW which high altitude battle field are you talking about and why is Pak Army living in constant fear of India?

Thanks.

Hi,

The high altitude battlefield are the mountains in wazirstan and neighbourhood where the wot is goin on---.

Don't think of fear from a pakistani perspective think about it from an american perspective---I am asking too much from a pakistan colleagues---I know.

In an american perspective----fear is the crucial most thing to get you ready and force you to prepare for a deadly enemy---.

" If you want to conquer the mountain---fear it "--Deacon Jones

The fear of the enemy makes you prepare harder and gets you readier to face that moment of inevitability---the moment you dread to face---war with the enemy.

Pakistani have a misconeption of mixing fear with cowardice---they are two different things my good man----people / paklistanis must learn to differentiate amongst them. But don't let the fear eat into your guts---once it does---the only thing left is a coward.


By the way---please don't address me as a SAHIB---you call me by other names but not this one. Thankyou.

 

[Bossman]

Hi,

Thankyou for your post sir---and thanks for joining the forum as well.

I got you out of your bed to get you to participate and join us on this board---I thankyou very much for that.

First of all you missed my point---jf 17 is not a waste of money---only its timing is not the best.

You have to ask this question---why does pakistan need an air force---and if it does----who does it need to fly combat against----does pakistan air force live in ETHER or does it live and breath in the real world right next to hindustan. If it knows that hindustan is our real enemy in the region and all it has is a 200 plus aircraft with BVR capabilities---then what is a prudent reply to the cause---a cause that gave you the oppurtunity to fill in the gap since 9/11/2001.

This discussion has ben going on for many a months---so might want to read into it before you get deep into the discussion.

Your last statement is very silly---'about statements and opinions '---you didnot need that---you have asked me a question and you should have waited for the reply---and it is my discretion how to respond to your querry.

Sir---in you very first post----you are not allowed to set he rules and standards of the discussion---that is my prerogative.

You started off very good but when you brought in SD 10 and Amraam's into the equation----you slipped.

First of all--sd 10 is in its developmental stage at this time---the missile is neither completely operational and nor it has proven its versatility against any adversity---so basically it is in the rara stage as of now.

Secondly----the range of sd 10 is somewhere about 60 km max AND THE 90% KILL RATIO IS WITHIN 30 to 40 km.

Are you getting my drift right now---I am talking about physics---I am not that proficient with the computers otherwise draw a picture of the plane with sd 10 and it max range and kill range----can any member do that right now---.

The counter part---ie the enemy has bvr's with max range of 100 km with a 90 % kill ratio coming close to 60 km---I have explained it many atimes and AI am a prudent guy like yopu gets my drift.

Now----on the other hand---the amraam is a totally diferent item----its 90%+ kill ratio range is close to 80--100km.

You are talking about 235 aircraft by the year 2015----my good kid----my time clock started on 9/12/2001---close to that number of planes we should have had by the years 2005---if not that number than at least a 100 aircraft in 2005 bvr capable.

Pakistan had every oppurtunity and all the cash available to make the purchase way before the kashmir earthquake---they had the pick of the liter---it was due to the paf's shenanigan's that we got stuck in muck---.

You people simple don't get it----you people simply cannot comprehend it that technically our air force should have been at the stage in 2005 that it is going to be in the year 2015---.

PAF has again blundered into putting us another 10 years behind the enemy---.

The screwed up with the mirage 2k purchase in 1982-84---they screwed up again in 1993---95----. Everyone of those oppurtunities would have put us at 80 % par with the IAF---we would have competed with iaf mano amano 80 times out of 100.

Today we are not even at 5 % of that capability----. In 2015---we would be barely at 50% strength compatibility.

Khan Sahib,

First of all why are your post so long winded, unfocused, with personal attacks and why it is your perogative to set the rules in a public forum? I follow the the rules of the forum and the admins and I have the same rights as anyone else. In a public forum age or number of posts are of no consequence. It is what you write and the case you make.

As far as the BVR missiles are concerned SD-10/PL12 become operational with PLAAF in 2007 so your statement about it being in development is incorrect. It has an operational range of 70KM and it is claimed to be more manoeuvrable than the Russian R-77. Vympel R77, which is the longest range BVR with IAF has a published range of around 80 KM so not much difference. Neither have been tested in real combat so their is no independent verification of the kill ratio. In any case, there is a lot of difference in published range and effective range. Russians are known to be a little aggressive in promoting their products. In reality most effective BVR engagements are likely to be in the 30 KM range. Now coming to your alleged PAF shenghians. If Pakistan had given up its nuclear program in the 80s, it would be sitting on hundreds of top of line Americans fighters of our choice. However, we choose to go for the nuclear option, which in my opinion, was the right thing to do, and becuase of that we had to compromise on our fighter procurements. We had very few options and what PAF was able to do with all the sanctions and very limited resources is comendable rather than subject to criticism. Mirage 2000s would have been a bad and very expensive choice and would not have given PAF any significant BVR capability i.e. Matra super 530 has a maximum range of 35 KM and much shorter effective range. Case is point is Taiwan, where Mirage 2000s are being mothballed. If there were better optiosn available to the PAF during that period please enlighten us. Remember defence has to be seen in context of all resources available and not simply one weapon system versus another. No doubt IAF currently has a BVR advantage and have had one for some years but it does not mean that India can simply walk over Pakistan. The reasons for it is other elements in our overall defence profile, otherwise they would have attacked us after the Parliament or the Mumbai episode.

Also your statement that IAF has 200 BVR capable aircrafts is incorrect. Currently they have less than hundred SU 30MKIs with Vympels. I am not undermining IAF threat, but they have their own issues and for starters they lack an effective primary or basic trainer because all their Deepaks are grounded and their Kirans are not doing too well either and no replacement is in sight. The much hyped MRCA procurement is years behind schedule. Best nothing is said about the LCA. The IAF situation is like this: LCA was mean't to replace the Migs 21S and 27s, but the LCA was delayed so they came up with the MRCA as an interim solution, but then the MRCA got delayed so they are buying more SU30MKIs as an interim solution. SU30 looks very good on the paper but it is a nightmare to maintain and operate.

Please do your homework, before you start putting other people down.

 

[Bossman]

Hi,

The high altitude battlefield are the mountains in wazirstan and neighbourhood where the wot is goin on---.

The highest enagements in South Waziristan are in the range of 1000 and 1500 meters, which is hardly high altitude warfare by Pakistani standards. Most ingress and egress are by helicopters. For Pakistan Army high altitude warfare starts at around 6000 meters. Your knowledge of military matters especially in the Pakistani context is very limited but you have a very arrogant and know it all attitude.

 

[MastanKhan]

Bossman,

I apologize if any personal attacks---you came out swinging like there was no tomorrow about facts and fiction---you have posted nothing new except for the state sponsored propaganda. So I respond to you in kind and now you are upset at me---don't start it if cannot take it back.

The sd 10 of 2007 was barely a 30--- km range bvr---better described as medium range---and it is barely reaching 50 maybe 60 km max range---.

The nmig 21 's in many an air force are a headache to the owners---but the F 7pg in pak air force are doing a great job---. Greek air force is happy with their m2k's dowining F 16---.

But before I go any further---pleaase introduce yourself---so that I may know to whom I am speaking to---a young child living in pakistan with his mom and dad---an adult pakistani man still dependant on mom and dad---or an individual and independant professional .

Your answer will help me in answering your inquiry in a better and professional manner.

So far---you have a good second post and then you are getting into a confrontation with me for no reason. You don't like what I say---go yell at another tree----don't take it personal---don't take it out on me---.


Read through the posts please---there are a hundred pages