JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[MastanKhan]

Pessler amendment led to what PAF calls lost decade.

Pakistan anquired nuclear capability in 1988 . In 1989 kashmir insurgency was started by pakistan under the Nuclear cover.

benazir came to power, went to azad kashmir and declared 1000
year war on India for kashmir

You can google "1990 india pakistan crisis "
Robert gates came on a peace mission

Indian Armed forces were mobilised .we told America we will not start war. Gates told pakistan " our military has war gamed India Pak war .There is no way you can win."

Pakistan backed off. But F 16 were loaded with nukes .
this led to pressler amendment

Hi,

After the 2002 scenario Musharraf stated that pak had no delievery system in place for the nukes---and that is on record---a big surprise to everyone---the nuke would have been buried under dirt enroute of advancing indian army---or on a flat bed of a truck.

His statement can be found. That was seemingly one of the biggest bluffs that pak played on the world.

The pressler amendment had been presented to the president Reagan many a times---pushed hard by the indian lobby congressman Steven Solariz was with Pressler and was firmly behind this issue---everyone remembers Pressler---but no one knows Steven Solariz---the real poison---in control by the indian lobby and openly working for the indian lobby.

Any way---when the amendment would came to Reagan---he would ask---does pakistan has anything that says atom bomb on the side----the reply would be no----the amendment would be squashed---Reagan had enough political clout to take out any challenge from any senator or congresssman---when Bush came into power---he was cornered---he didnot have the same savy as that of Reagan---got cornered and had to sign.

Paks knew the sanctions were coming---but didnot want to believe it---fatalism.

About the A Q Khan issue---Pak got cocky after 9/11and forgot what india was feeling about this new found relation of U S and pak---india was left down---but incidently not out.

If pak could have understood this loneliness of india after 9/11 and taken care of the business properly and handled itself better and acted upon the issues pro-actively---A Q Khan would have been a dead issue---.

Strategically pakistan failed one more time in analysing the situation properly---playing america for a fool---in the earlly years of the war---trying to milk america for weapons systems and trade---pakistan went for the deception---fake millitary / frontier corps strikes against the al qaeda----two days war and twenty day peace---letting the terrorists escape----pak millitary generals making a piece meal out of their soldiers and oficers---playing games over the slaughtered bodies of their soldiers---.

What a price to pay for pakistan----if they would have understood the game right from day one and done their job that they chose to---pakistan would have been in a totally different position than where it is today---.

Lesson learnt if there is any---do not sell your enemy short---dodnot take india for granted---if you agree to---then do the bidding with a 110% efficiency.

 

[IceCold]

Kid,

You are a live at home---going to high school---dependant on your parents---guaranteed---. A professional is never shy and afraid to state what he does.

Your roots are so deep that you still cannot afford to move away from home----. You think ypu are the first one over here with these credentials---at least 200 of them before you.

Good luck with your high school son---.

Mastan sb although not related to your post, may i ask why did you choose to ignore a post in which a simple request was made to please back up your claim about the usage of F-16s and the restrictions related to offensive defensive nature as per you? I am still looking forward to hear from you.

 

[Dr sim]

You are very wrong. JF-17 is indeed made in Pakistan and if anything does go wrong, JF-17 will be fixed in Pakistan and not anywhere else and for that we dont need to ask anyone. And for your poor knowledge how do you think PAF kept flying those F-16s all these years when we were under sanctions. According to you they should have been sent to the US if anything goes wrong.



I'll suggest you do the same next time you think you know all about PAF and its capabilities.

Jf-17 is a JOINT VENTURE. do u think if something goes wrong with engine,radar etc u will be able to manufacture ur own spares and fix it.NOOO, u will buy them from USA and China and then at PAC kamra , u will just assemble them.
Did u really believe for a moment that Pakistan manufactures JF-17 from scratch,.There might be some indigeneous facility at PAC kamra due to which Jf-17 Is a JV and lets Pakistan contribute its own share but it clearly do not make engines,radars etc(coz ur still using chinese engines/radars)

Stop being blindly patriotic and start being more logical

 

[IceCold]

Jf-17 is a JOINT VENTURE. do u think if something goes wrong with engine,radar etc u will be able to manufacture ur own spares and fix it.NOOO, u will buy them from USA and China and then at PAC kamra , u will just assemble them.
Did u really believe for a moment that Pakistan manufactures JF-17 from scratch,.There might some indigeneous facility at PAC kamra due to which Jf-17 Is a JV and lets Pakistan contribute its own share but it clearly do not make engines,radars etc

Stop being blindly patriotic and start being more logical

You know i am tired of listening to your BS and lack of knowledge. Your intent is obviously clear so i will not indulge with you. May i politely ask you to leave the thread in peace and spare us from your pearls of wisdom. Otherwise we always have the option of the report button. Your choice.

 

[anathema]

You are very wrong. JF-17 is indeed made in Pakistan and if anything does go wrong, JF-17 will be fixed in Pakistan and not anywhere else and for that we dont need to ask anyone. And for your poor knowledge how do you think PAF kept flying those F-16s all these years when we were under sanctions. According to you they should have been sent to the US if anything goes wrong.

Icecold thats Not correct ! What happens RD 33 engine requires maintenance , what happens if WS 13 engine requires maintenance ? Pakistan does not have that knowledge and no country will be willing to those since they represent the most complex and technical challenges of fighter programme.

Further what happens if there are issues in complex avionics (radar , etc)? PAF is interested in French avionics -- there is no way French is going to transfer the technology, same goes for Chinese ! At best PAF will be able to sort out minor avionics issues and maybe airframe issues -- but thats about it. Thats how every country does it and PAF will be no different.

As for PAF F16 -- Any reason why you think the sortie rates were so low during Kargil war ? there were also reports of cannibilasation of spare parts -- not sure if its true. Air Commodore - Kaiser Tufail's blog is a very interesting read in this regard and is an eye opener-- it really shows the soup PAF was in with regards to F16.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Dr sim]

You know i am tired of listening to your BS and lack of knowledge. Your intent is obviously clear so i will not indulge with you. May i politely ask you to leave the thread in peace and spare us from your pearls of wisdom. Otherwise we always have the option of the report button. Your choice.

you r threatening me as if pressing report button is gonna launch a nuclear bomb.Do whatever pleases u.

P.S- if u have the ability to argue , kindly post logical replies in future.

 

[IceCold]

Icecold thats Not correct ! What happens RD 33 engine requires maintenance , what happens if WS 13 engine requires maintenance ? Pakistan does not have that knowledge and no country will be willing to those since they represent the most complex and technical challenges of fighter programme.

Further what happens if there are issues in complex avionics (radar , etc)? PAF is interested in French avionics -- there is no way French is going to transfer the technology, same goes for Chinese ! At best PAF will be able to sort out minor avionics issues and maybe airframe issues -- but thats about it. Thats how every country does it and PAF will be no different.

As for PAF F16 -- Any reason why you think the sortie rates were so low during Kargil war ? there were also reports of cannibilasation of spare parts -- not sure if its true. Air Commodore - Kaiser Tufail's blog is a very interesting read in this regard and is an eye opener-- it really shows the soup PAF was in with regards to F16.

[/QUOTE]

Do you realize that PAF kamra has started manufacturing its own avionics for the JF-17.
PAF begins JF-17 avionics production - News

Sortie rate low or not, the very fact that PAF kept those F-16s flying and dont forget F-16s were our main stray fighters, speaks for it self and should be an eye opener for those who claim other wise but then again i dont expect better from your kind.

 

[IceCold]

you r threatening me as if pressing report button is gonna launch a nuclear bomb.Do whatever pleases u.

P.S- if u have the ability to argue , kindly post logical replies in future.

Argue with the likes of you....i gave up along ago as its a lost cause but at the same time i cannot sit back idle while the likes of you spread dis information and derail the tread.

 

[Patriot]

I would ignore anathema comment wrt F-16's.At least we were able to fly them and not make them flying coffin like IAF has made migs flying coffined and that too even with spares and we only had 3-4 crash between 1989 2001 (the time in which we were sanctioned) and those too were largely due to bird strikes.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Keep the discussion as per JF-17, do not bring in Mig-21s, MKIs and other stuff.

Keep the thread clean, any more off topic posts, they will get deleted.

 

[anathema]

Do you realize that PAF kamra has started manufacturing its own avionics for the JF-17.
PAF begins JF-17 avionics production - News

i dont expect better from your kind
[/QUOTE]

I choose to respond to you respectfully , i hope you reciprocate in the same fashion. Lets not go down on the war path since i was quoting my knowledge on the matter -- which maybe correct or wrong.

You did not choose to respond on engines -- will Pakistan be able to rectify engine issues ? I am not talking about petty maintenance issues but the real complex ones. Icecold i have been long enough on this forum to know that Kamra has begun production of avionics -- but what kind of avionics are we talking about ? avionics covers a wide range of spectrum -- right from Hud - to as complex as radar. Hope you get the drift ! There is a difference when you are a co production partner and when you solely are producing your own fighter. For all the bonding going on for F35 programme , britan still doesnt have the techinical know how of many of the components !

Sortie rate low or not, the very fact that PAF kept those F-16s flying and dont forget F-16s were our main stray fighters, speaks for it self and should be an eye opener for those who claim other wise but then again .

And thats how you choose to explain yourself ! If IAF has 100 fighters in its arsenal and if it manages to keep 10 fighters in the air then does it matter ? Will it really impact enemy operations. Thats where sortie rates matter. Sure PAF technicians did a great job - no doubt about that -- but they faced issues due to unavailability of spare parts and not knowing the techincal know how.

 

[anathema]

I would ignore anathema comment wrt F-16's.At least we were able to fly them and not make them flying coffin like IAF has made migs flying coffined and that too even with spares and we only had 3-4 crash between 1989 2001 (the time in which we were sanctioned) and those too were largely due to bird strikes.

Patriot - I did not intend any disrespect !! So why are we going over there. I made a statement based on what i have read on Kaiser Tufail's blog. I believe he has more knowledge than any of the arm chair generals like you or me (ofcourse baring Muradk or Pshamim, etc). If you consider that making a few F16 planes fly is a great achivement well then we dont have anything to discuss about.

Flying coffin comment was not called for !.

 

[Storm Force]

JF17 x 10 OR IS 14 planes is fine Today.

These 14 Planes max have a chinease BVR capability and a chinease MSA radar. It has jammers etc frm China too.

These 14 Thunders TODAY can take on and win in 1v 1 SCENARIO against 200 mig21S & 250 jagauars that IAF have. Because the Thunder is a BVR capable platform. and other factors mentioned above.

Against 120 mig29 & mirage2000 lets say 50/50 chance. ie equal.

Against 124 SU30MKI thunder will lose.

MY POINT BEING THERE ARE ONLY 10-14 THUNDERS TODAY

BY THE TIME PAF HAS SUCCESFULLY acquired 250+ Thunders it will face zero/ nil/ 0 Jagauars no mig21s no mig27s

THUNDER WILL ONLY FACE

SU30MKI
mig29 smt
mirage2000-5
MMRCA
lca tejas

" No body including the mods have highlighted that by the time PAF have 200+ Thunders which will take 7-10 years the IAF will have a completely different fleet as of today. "

All five planes metioned which will be the only planes in service will either superior techology ie 400 su30mki/mmrca or equal 200+ mig29smt/k/ mirage2000-5 , LCA tejas

I am merely pointing out that to face off the PROJECTED IAF of 2020 FAR MORE FC20s and more block52 block60 F16s will be prudent

 

[Imran Khan]

JF17 x 10 OR IS 14 planes is fine Today.

These 14 Planes max have a chinease BVR capability and a chinease MSA radar. It has jammers etc frm China too.

These 14 Thunders TODAY can take on and win in 1v 1 SCENARIO against 200 mig21S & 250 jagauars that IAF have. Because the Thunder is a BVR capable platform. and other factors mentioned above.

Against 120 mig29 & mirage2000 lets say 50/50 chance. ie equal.

Against 124 SU30MKI thunder will lose.

MY POINT BEING THERE ARE ONLY 10-14 THUNDERS TODAY

BY THE TIME PAF HAS SUCCESFULLY acquired 250+ Thunders it will face zero/ nil/ 0 Jagauars no mig21s no mig27s

THUNDER WILL ONLY FACE

SU30MKI
mig29 smt
mirage2000-5
MMRCA
lca tejas

" No body including the mods have highlighted that by the time PAF have 200+ Thunders which will take 7-10 years the IAF will have a completely different fleet as of today. "

All five planes metioned which will be the only planes in service will either superior techology ie 400 su30mki/mmrca or equal 200+ mig29smt/k/ mirage2000-5 , LCA tejas

I am merely pointing out that to face off the PROJECTED IAF of 2020 FAR MORE FC20s and more block52 block60 F16s will be prudent

why you lie damn??
jagurs are 88 in IAF
mig-21 are 121 in service

or you multi every indian thing in 3 shamfully???????????

 

[TaimiKhan]

JF17 x 10 OR IS 14 planes is fine Today.

These 14 Planes max have a chinease BVR capability and a chinease MSA radar. It has jammers etc frm China too.

These 14 Thunders TODAY can take on and win in 1v 1 SCENARIO against 200 mig21S & 250 jagauars that IAF have. Because the Thunder is a BVR capable platform. and other factors mentioned above.

Against 120 mig29 & mirage2000 lets say 50/50 chance. ie equal.

Against 124 SU30MKI thunder will lose.

MY POINT BEING THERE ARE ONLY 10-14 THUNDERS TODAY

BY THE TIME PAF HAS SUCCESFULLY acquired 250+ Thunders it will face zero/ nil/ 0 Jagauars no mig21s no mig27s

THUNDER WILL ONLY FACE

SU30MKI
mig29 smt
mirage2000-5
MMRCA
lca tejas

" No body including the mods have highlighted that by the time PAF have 200+ Thunders which will take 7-10 years the IAF will have a completely different fleet as of today. "

All five planes metioned which will be the only planes in service will either superior techology ie 400 su30mki/mmrca or equal 200+ mig29smt/k/ mirage2000-5 , LCA tejas

I am merely pointing out that to face off the PROJECTED IAF of 2020 FAR MORE FC20s and more block52 block60 F16s will be prudent

For now confirm order for JF-17s is 150 by 2015.

150 to replace the 2nd Gen, 2-3+ decade old fighter aircraft of PAF and not to be front line fighters.

When these 150 come into service, there would definitely be quiet many IAF planes which it can take on.

After 2015, no one knows what JF-17s are changed into, do they go into redesign and become some other design plane, a bigger, more powerful one or the same.

For now plzz look at 2015 and the confirm order of 150 JF-17s, no need to go towards 2020 and beyond.

India has many plans in pipeline, but how and when they will get fulfilled, is debatable. For now only MKIs are the real threat and coming in numbers, rest of the MRCA, Pak-Fa all have to come yet, with no confirm official deadline. And i don't want to bring in LCA for now.

So plzzz keep the discussion to 150 JF17s till 2015, 50 of which would be for ground attack role cum interceptor role, 100 for air superiority role, which have for now no confirm avionics package finalized or weapon systems. So without knowing what the next 100 JF-17s will have and what their potential would b, it would be premature and childish to think it as something which will have no effectiveness.

And yeah, PAF is not sitting idle and watching IAF getting everything, it has its own plans and strategies to counter them, which takes time, as we are not as rich as Indian is.