JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[Bossman]

Respected Mastan khan sir
You always mention about PAF not getting Grippen.

You have forgotten about the A Q Khan scandal.
Pakistan was fearing full scale sanctions from the west so it avoided the grippen

Grippen was never a serious option. BTW AQ scandal was just a red herring. AQ was part of an eloborate hoax developed by the ISI to deflect attention from the real program. He had very little to do with Pakistan's nuclear program. Infact he was not even invited when Pakistan exploded the device. Pakistan Army ran two parallel programs and used one against the other. Problem with AQ was that he craved public attention and hence paid the price for it. AQ scandal broke after 9 11 and there was no threat of sanctions because of it.

 

[Bossman]

Bossman,

I apologize if any personal attacks---you came out swinging like there was no tomorrow about facts and fiction---you have posted nothing new except for the state sponsored propaganda. So I respond to you in kind and now you are upset at me---don't start it if cannot take it back.

The sd 10 of 2007 was barely a 30---40 km max range bvr---better described as medium range---and it is barely reaching 50 maybe 60 km max range---.

The nmig 21 's in many an air force are a headache to the owners---but the F 7pg in pak air force are doing a great job---. Greek air force is happy with their m2k's dowining F 16---.

But before I go any further---pleaase introduce yourself---so that I may know to whom I am speaking to---a young child living in pakistan with his mom and dad---an adult pakistani man still dependant on mom and dad---or an individual and independant professional .

Your answer will help me in answering your inquiry in a better and professional manner.

So far---you have a good second post and then you are getting into a confrontation with me for no reason. You don't like what I say---go yell at another tree----don't take it personal---don't take it out on me---.


Read through the posts please---there are a hundred pages

Please don't be patronising and put others down. The only person who is acting like a child in this exchange is you. Why should I introduce myself? why shouldn't you introduce yourself first? As I said earlier, public forums are age neutral. One has to prove one's worth by what you write and where the substance is should be obvious to any reader.

Your data on the range of PL12/SD10 is not supported by any publicly available information. Please read up on this rather dated but comprehensive review of BVR missiles in the Asia Pacific Region. It clearly says that the PL12/SD10 is a credible player against the AMRAAM and R-77 series. SD 10/PL-12 completed its development tests in December 2004 and was certified in 2005.

Also PAF has never released perfromance data for the SD10 so there is no state propaganda as you allege. If you are referring to the Chinese than what they say is as good or bad as what the Russians say about thier products.

I am not going after you but simply responding to your earlier post which I think was factually incorrect. If you post your views on a public forum, you should be ready to people challenging them otherwise don't post. I have no personal vendetta against you, my only issue with you is that you are criticising the PAF for the wrong reasons and I am simply giving a different view.

I never said anything about Mig 21s and F7s, I said SU30 is a nightmare to maintain to the extent that engines have to be sent to Russia for overhaul. But as you raise the issue, Pakistani F7s have a better availibility rate than Indian Migs 21s and a much lower accident rate. One F16 loss versus an M2k is hardly a proof of M2K being a better aircraft. In any case the decision not to buy the M2Ks was due to Zardari's shenghians rather than those of the PAF.


http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-Missile-Survey-May-05.pdf

Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force

 

[Luftwaffe]

Bossam why do you say something before you check it out or research. AQ Khan was invited on that very day Pakistan tested its nuke.

You bossam said.. Infact he was not even invited when Pakistan exploded the device
You are a Liar don't lie again thankyou.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

New members must introduce themselves in the members introduction section and tell us a little bit about them----before going wild. Thankyou. MK

 

[Luftwaffe]

Adding to what MK said, new members should also research and stop lying unless they have concrete evidence like above about AQ Khan.

 

[MastanKhan]

Please don't be patronising and put others down. The only person who is acting like a child in this exchange is you. Why should I introduce myself? why shouldn't you introduce yourself first? As I said earlier, public forums are age neutral. One has to prove one's worth by what you write and where the substance is should be obvious to any reader.



Also PAF has never released perfromance data for the SD10 so there is no state propaganda as you allege. If you are referring to the Chinese than what they say is as good or bad as what the Russians say about thier products.

I am not going after you but simply responding to your earlier post which I think was factually incorrect. If you post your views on a public forum, you should be ready to people challenging them otherwise don't post. I have no personal vendetta against you, my only issue with you is that you are criticising the PAF for the wrong reasons and I am simply giving a different view.

http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-Missile-Survey-May-05.pdf

Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force

Hi,

My introduction is up there guy----just click on my name and you will know a bit about me---look at the flags and you will know my location.

But for your information---I am 50 plus---have 3 little ones---close to 30 years in the U S ---background in automotive engineering---have been in retail sales in the automotive industry for 20 plus years in sales and management positions---my hobbies---I ride my bike a few times a week on the bike way running parrallel to the pacific ocean and I am an avid reader---any subject any writer----almost all of it fiction---rarely an autobiography---.

Any other questions---oh---by the way----me and my wife just got a foster child---she is 2 1/2 years old cutie---mom and dad are in jail for fighting with each other---. Supposedly she will be with us for a minimum of 4 months.

Now it is your turn---

 

[Bossman]

Bossam why do you say something before you check it out or research. AQ Khan was invited on that very day Pakistan tested its nuke.
YouTube - Chagai I (Chagai 1) Pakistan Nuclear Test 1998
You bossam said.. Infact he was not even invited when Pakistan exploded the device
You are a Liar don't lie again thankyou.

You are wrong. He was not there at the time of the test. These pictures were taken many days after the tests when some members of the KRL team were invited by the PAEC team which had designed assembled and triggered the device. The reason I say that they went into tunnel during this visit and that could have been possible only after the mountain had settled down and checked for radiation. I have personally met a number of folks in this picture so I know what I am talking about. KRL was not responsible for the device. They only ran the centrifuges for enriching uranium which was only one of 26 major processes which go into developing a nuclear device.

 

[Bossman]

Hi,

My introduction is up there guy----just click on my name and you will know a bit about me---look at the flags and you will know my location.

But for your information---I am 50 plus---have 3 little ones---close to 30 years in the U S ---background in automotive engineering---have been in retail sales in the automotive industry for 20 plus years in sales and management positions---my hobbies---I ride my bike a few times a week on the bike way running parrallel to the pacific ocean and I am an avid reader---any subject any writer----almost all of it fiction---rarely an autobiography---.

Any other questions---oh---by the way----me and my wife just got a foster child---she is 2 1/2 years old cutie---mom and dad are in jail for fighting with each other---. Supposedly she will be with us for a minimum of 4 months.

Now it is your turn---

Basically you are a car salesmen. A good position to have but does not make you an expert on military matters. My job can be best described as international fixer and dealmaker. I have lived and worked in 8 countries and have travelled to about 70 countries at the last count. On the side I write on defence matters for major periodicals. That is all I can share in a public forum. I visit such forums occasionally to gather information and see how the wind is blowing and also to challenge my wits. I obviously have deep roots in Pakistan.

 

[Bossman]

In 1990 there was india pakistan tension over kashmir .
PAF had loaded its F 16 with nukes in case of war . Then USA intervened and
prevented war but PUNISHED pakistan with Pressler Amendment.

If pakistan could be santioned for putting nukes on F 16 , and threatening India which was NOT a friend of US at that time then for A Q khan thing which affected Israel 's security sanctions were possible.

Nothing happened in 1990 between Pakistan and India. It was during the Brasstack crisis of January 1987 that Pakistan supposedly loaded nukes on it planes and the sanctions under Pressler amendment were not implemented until 1990 so they did not have anything to do with India. This is a typical Indian attitude of self importance. Infact at that time India was very much in the Soviet Camp. In any case the Americans paid and are still paying a big price for the Pressler. Also Pakistan's policy has been very clear that its nukes are India specific and nothing to do with Israel. This has been communicated to Israel directly and on one occasion during an "accidental" meeting between the CASs of the countries. This is one of the reasons that Pakistan has not publicly shown its intent to develop longer range missiles.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Bossman..No i am right you are wrong there are many other footage out there on youtube. I am not going to engage with you on worthless topic, next time do not lie without any research, thankyou. Look at the footage Nawaz is there along with AQ Khan it was the same day, Nawaz was Prime Minister he did not have time to come back to make movies along with A Q Khan days after.

 

[Bossman]

Bossman..No i am right you are wrong there are many other footage out there on youtube. I am not going to engage with you on worthless topic, next time do not lie without any research, thankyou. Look at the footage Nawaz is there along with AQ Khan it was the same day, Nawaz was Prime Minister he did not have time to come back to make movies along with A Q Khan days after.

OK you are partially correct, he was invited but it was his first visit to Chagai and he had nothing to do with the device other than providing the enriched uranium. Here is some more of this topic

Pakistan’s nuclear history has been effectively falsified in favour of AQ Khan as part of a deliberate state policy of nuclear ambiguity since the early 1980s. However, the nuclear program, including all fuel cycle and nuclear weapons design, development and testing projects were being run by PAEC led by Mr. Munir Ahmad Khan, Chairman, 1972-91. Dr. AQ Khan joined PAEC’s uranium enrichment project, begun in Oct-Nov, 1974, as Prinicpal Scientific Officer under S.Bashiruddin Mahmood, in early 1976, but managed to take over the project by July and then have it separated from PAEC the following year. Dr. Samar Mubarakmand served under Mr. Muhammad Hafeez Qureshi, head of the secretive Directorate of Technical Development of PAEC (DTD). It was this DTD that carried out all nuclear weapons development and testing, including the cold tests and the 1998 hot tests at Chaghi. DTD was set up by Munir Khan in 1974 under Qureshi to coordinate the work of all the specialized groups working on the nuclear device. Samar got famous because he, as Member (Technical), PAEC, was responsible for nuclear testing in 1998. It is true that he headed the Diagnostics Group in DTD and then as head of the National Development Complex, set up Pakistan’s missile program. As for enrichment, PAEC was responsible for providing the UF6 feed to AQ Khan’s KRL, who then handed back the enriched UF6 to PAEC for conversion into metal and machining into cores. PAEC was also running a parallel Plutonium route, during the 1980s and New Labs was ready during this time and work on the 50 MW t production reactor at Khushab as commenced in 1985. Therefore, AQ Khan was heading up only one project, while Munir Ahmad Khan was heading over 20 such labs and projects in PAEC.

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showth...AEC-Perspective-(an-eye-opener-worth-the-read)

 

[Luftwaffe]

Bossman..Lets get back to JF-17 Thunder topic shall we?

 

[MastanKhan]

Basically you are a car salesmen. A good position to have but does not make you an expert on military matters. My job can be best described as international fixer and dealmaker. I have lived and worked in 8 countries and have travelled to about 70 countries at the last count. On the side I write on defence matters for major periodicals. That is all I can share in a public forum. I visit such forums occasionally to gather information and see how the wind is blowing and also to challenge my wits. I obviously have deep roots in Pakistan.

Kid,

You are a live at home---going to high school---dependant on your parents---guaranteed---. A professional is never shy and afraid to state what he does.

Your roots are so deep that you still cannot afford to move away from home----. You think ypu are the first one over here with these credentials---at least 200 of them before you.

Good luck with your high school son---.

 

[Dr sim]

Khan Sahib,

First of all why are your post so long winded, unfocused, with personal attacks and why it is your perogative to set the rules in a public forum? I follow the the rules of the forum and the admins and I have the same rights as anyone else. In a public forum age or number of posts are of no consequence. It is what you write and the case you make.

As far as the BVR missiles are concerned SD-10/PL12 become operational with PLAAF in 2007 so your statement about it being in development is incorrect. It has an operational range of 70KM and it is claimed to be more manoeuvrable than the Russian R-77. Vympel R77, which is the longest range BVR with IAF has a published range of around 80 KM so not much difference. Neither have been tested in real combat so their is no independent verification of the kill ratio. In any case, there is a lot of difference in published range and effective range. Russians are known to be a little aggressive in promoting their products. In reality most effective BVR engagements are likely to be in the 30 KM range. Now coming to your alleged PAF shenghians. If Pakistan had given up its nuclear program in the 80s, it would be sitting on hundreds of top of line Americans fighters of our choice. However, we choose to go for the nuclear option, which in my opinion, was the right thing to do, and becuase of that we had to compromise on our fighter procurements. We had very few options and what PAF was able to do with all the sanctions and very limited resources is comendable rather than subject to criticism. Mirage 2000s would have been a bad and very expensive choice and would not have given PAF any significant BVR capability i.e. Matra super 530 has a maximum range of 35 KM and much shorter effective range. Case is point is Taiwan, where Mirage 2000s are being mothballed. If there were better optiosn available to the PAF during that period please enlighten us. Remember defence has to be seen in context of all resources available and not simply one weapon system versus another. No doubt IAF currently has a BVR advantage and have had one for some years but it does not mean that India can simply walk over Pakistan. The reasons for it is other elements in our overall defence profile, otherwise they would have attacked us after the Parliament or the Mumbai episode.

Also your statement that IAF has 200 BVR capable aircrafts is incorrect. Currently they have less than hundred SU 30MKIs with Vympels. I am not undermining IAF threat, but they have their own issues and for starters they lack an effective primary or basic trainer because all their Deepaks are grounded and their Kirans are not doing too well either and no replacement is in sight. The much hyped MRCA procurement is years behind schedule. Best nothing is said about the LCA. The IAF situation is like this: LCA was mean't to replace the Migs 21S and 27s, but the LCA was delayed so they came up with the MRCA as an interim solution, but then the MRCA got delayed so they are buying more SU30MKIs as an interim solution. SU30 looks very good on the paper but it is a nightmare to maintain and operate.

Please do your homework, before you start putting other people down.

You really have no clue what u r talking about. India currently has more than 200+ BVR capable aircraft and I ll show you how-
Step 1

1. Su-30 MKI -105

2.Mig-21 Bison-The first two aircraft (C-2777 and C-2769) which were upgraded in Russia, did their first test flight on October 6th, 1998. Trials of the medium-range Vympel R-73RDM2 and the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Vympel R-77/RVV-AEE air-to-air missiles were conducted in February 1999. The formidable combination of the Phazatron Kopyo (Spear) light weight multi-mode radar with that of the Missiles proved a success, the subsonic target drone aircraft being destroyed by a R-77 fired from 6km away. In all the two prototypes were believed to have done nearly 200 test flights.

Numbers-121

Step 2

Do Math -105+121=226

Step-3

U mention ur concerns regarding Su-30 mki ,how they r only good on paper.and also that they r a nightmare to operate etc etc. I know that Russians have to be contacted regarding the spares for them. But JF-17/F-16 are not MADE IN PAKISTAN either. So every time something needs to be fixed u will either ask USA or China .very bad and illogical on ur part. if u have any sources backing up ur claim then I ll be most interested.

Step 4

Do some research before posting

 

[IceCold]

U mention ur concerns regarding Su-30 mki ,how they r only good on paper.and also that they r a nightmare to operate etc etc. I know that Russians have to be contacted regarding the spares for them. But JF-17/F-16 are not MADE IN PAKISTAN either. So every time something needs to be fixed u will either ask USA or China .very bad and illogical on ur part. if u have any sources backing up ur claim then I ll be most interested.

You are very wrong. JF-17 is indeed made in Pakistan and if anything does go wrong, JF-17 will be fixed in Pakistan and not anywhere else and for that we dont need to ask anyone. And for your poor knowledge how do you think PAF kept flying those F-16s all these years when we were under sanctions. According to you they should have been sent to the US if anything goes wrong.

Step 4

Do some research before posting

I'll suggest you do the same next time you think you know all about PAF and its capabilities.