JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[TaimiKhan]

@Taimikhan ,So this is the best argument u can come up with?
Last time I read ur post it was more logical.

This time it is more logical, as you gave the logic yourself, that PAF is going for JF-17 as it can not afford anything else.

So if someone has such thinking, then why do they even bother to ask questions that why PAF is going for JF-17, as they have already made up their mind.

PAF can not afford hi-tech aircraft, thus it is going for cheap, incompetent JF-17, after this is there anything left to talk about logically ??

 

[hataf]

This time it is more logical, as you gave the logic yourself, that PAF is going for JF-17 as it can not afford anything else.

So if someone has such thinking, then why do they even bother to ask questions that why PAF is going for JF-17, as they have already made up their mind.

PAF can not afford hi-tech aircraft, thus it is going for cheap, incompetent JF-17, after this is there anything left to talk about logically ??

Taimi bahi

you forced me to hit

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

PAF loves to play games---and when it falls down on its face---it has a thousand and one excuses---it is always somebody else to take the blame----it is always someone else who is at fault---it is always someone else who is not playing by the rules.

JF 17 is a wonderful plane----but who needs it today----when the primary need of the hour is BVR and BVR equipped planes alone.

Paf has apeared at a loss when it comes to thinking and reacting on its feet in time. It is always a day late and pound short---.

When you go take and exam----and you have studied for it---it is always reccomended that the first answer that comes to the mind is the right answer. Everything after that is the mind playing tricks.

Same thing----when we initially agreed that JF 17 was not what was needed---we were absolutely correct---what PAF did after that was trying to cover its mistake---and the deception that it had created amonsgt the pakistanis to justify the purchase begins to get into the realm of CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE.

All the explanations that they have come out are no more than coverups for their blunders and poor analysis in trying to coax the civilians into believing that PAF is on the right track.

And we the civilians---we cannot be condemning our flyers all the time and have to follow suite---we have been screwed one more time by our very own---it is not a surprise anymore---we are used to it by now---so---take it easy and enjoy---.

It really surprises me of the mindset of my countrymen----the enemy is adding up on the BVR capable planes by 100's and what do we have----we only have 4 of them only and only 4----and those 4's can only be used in a defencive strike mode----read all the statements of the ACM---nowhere it mentions about offencive BVR strike of blk 52'2 across border.

All the spin---all the statements are going round and round in defending our resources by every means possible---that is what the U S is also agreeing to---they have allowed us to use these birds in a defencive mode against any incoming strikes----but we cannot use the bvr's against any offencive strikes that we make across the border on our own. That is what my interpretation is.

Now---coming back to the JF 17 again---it would of a tremendous asset to the airforce---but when I am asking for a .50 calibre rifle---you are justifying me by handing me over a .308---that is not acceptable and must not be justified.

 

[WAQAS119]

@MAstanKhan: yea! I totally agree with you! We Pakistanis has strange kind of mindset that everything, PAF is doing, is correct. We blindly accept each and everything they tell us.
But fact is PAF is too slow in its actions. Only few F16 Block 52+ are not enough to counter tons of Sukhois and JF17 is not yet capable to counter them.

Some people come up with argument that we have air force that is defensive thus current fleet is enough, but they must learn that offence is best defence, and for offensive strikes we must have many potent jets in our inventory. Only few F16 52+ will not do for us.

 

[Manticore]

well , instead of 250 jf17 : 150 fc20 , the ratio should be reversed --

250 fc20 plus 100 f16s [mlu] would be the most intelligent step in the right direction

--only if it doesnt get plagued by corruption

 

[TaimiKhan]

well , instead of 250 jf17 : 150 fc20 , the ratio should be reversed --

250 fc20 plus 100 f16s [mlu] would be the most intelligent step in the right direction

--only if it doesnt get plagued by corruption

Reaching 250 FC-20s would take another decade to 15 years and more may be, so what to do till then ?? Keep flying with 2nd & 3rd Gen aircraft or replace them with a good enough 4th gen BVR capable fighter, till more advanced FC-20s start to get inducted in numbers.

And who said we will be forever on the 350-400 combat jet strength ?? Did anyone thought about gradually increasing the strength to 450, 500, 550 and so on, if conditions permit.

 

[Peregrine]

Hi,
the concerns mentioned above by Mr Mastan are pretty valid but one must not forget that when we talk about India-Pakistan confrontation we tend to forget the Nuclear environment the concept of an all out war in a nuclear environment is highly dubious as it could be more devastating than the belligerents predictions, So if sanity prevails no state would want that to happen no matter how much numerical or qualitative edge you got over your enemy, secondly there are lots of limitations to this much talked about indian concept of limited war as no one knows when it might escalate, for a country like Pakistan whose primary deterrence is nuclear weapons, the scenario involving BVRMS seem highly unlikely.
P.S in the light of the current confidence building measures between India & Pakistan the threat of an imminent war can be over ruled, but one must stay prepared & for that i guess we are on right track.

 

[Manticore]

Reaching 250 FC-20s would take another decade to 15 years and more may be, so what to do till then ?? Keep flying with 2nd & 3rd Gen aircraft or replace them with a good enough 4th gen BVR capable fighter, till more advanced FC-20s start to get inducted in numbers.

And who said we will be forever on the 350-400 combat jet strength ?? Did anyone thought about gradually increasing the strength to 450, 500, 550 and so on, if conditions permit.

think of jf17 as an experience gaining stepping stone alonge a market sales pitch

-- one answer-start a production line of j10b before its too late--
-- 60% of our aicrafts should have bvr and deep strike capabilty



we keep ourselves happy by saying there is still a gap of 2 years before indians will start seeing there mrca-- after that point ALL of indian aircrafts will be capable of deep penetration -----
what will be our reply to them? 32blk52s which can only be used as defensive purposes-

if we are short of money [as always], we cant dream of 500+ jets -- so we should get the most 'effective' jets as possible
eg.. i think [i might be wrong]the greek airforce is small-- but extremely potent with 170 blk52+ and 50 mirage 2000= total aircrafts under 300-- but composition has more muscle than fat

 

[Zarbe Momin]

Jaguar has upper wing pylons for close A2A missels. Can Pakistan Airforce increase hard point on JF-17 like this.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/jaguar.htm

 

[TaimiKhan]

think of jf17 as an experience gaining stepping stone alonge a market sales pitch

-- one answer-start a production line of j10b before its too late--
-- 60% of our aicrafts should have bvr and deep strike capabilty

we keep ourselves happy by saying there is still a gap of 2 years before indians will start seeing there mrca-- after that point ALL of indian aircrafts will be capable of deep penetration -----
what will be our reply to them? 32blk52s which can only be used as defensive purposes-

if we are short of money [as always], we cant dream of 500+ jets -- so we should get the most 'effective' jets as possible
eg.. i think [i might be wrong]the greek airforce is small-- but extremely potent with 180 blk52+

By 2015, inshAllah more then 60%, rather much more % would be BVR capable aircraft in our inventory. F-16s upgraded, FC-20s coming in, hopefully 150 JF-17s all BVR capable, so you are seeing at a good amount of BVR capable fleet.

Plus, J-10B is not yet finalized, engine is a big problem, so for now, its not a feasible product. It has much to attain to satisfy our much needed future requirements.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,
P.S in the light of the current confidence building measures between India & Pakistan the threat of an imminent war can be over ruled, but one must stay prepared & for that i guess we are on right track.

Hi,

I think it was the president of the dehli bar association that mentioned---we were almost at the verge of signing the kasmir deal with pakistan---and then Musharraf govt toppled---he further stated that india has a problem of not following through when the govt in pakistan is weak---or when pakistan is in a weaker position.

Which means that the confidence building measure are fake on part of india---. So our only salvation is to have a strong government, strong millitary and a stronger deep strike force.

Bottomline is that india can never be trusted---the only way possible is to have a " right in your face " kind of deep strike force.

 

[abaseen99]

there is any programe of nescom or pac to build own engine and mbda system

 

[IceCold]

All the spin---all the statements are going round and round in defending our resources by every means possible---that is what the U S is also agreeing to---they have allowed us to use these birds in a defencive mode against any incoming strikes----but we cannot use the bvr's against any offencive strikes that we make across the border on our own. That is what my interpretation is.

Sir for the highlighted part, if you dont find it offensive may i ask you to please back this claim up because the way i see it your interpretation is wrong and if anything you sir are doing is spinning the ACM comment to suit a certain flavor. The only thing ACM made clear was that PAF will use the bird as it deems fit. There was no mention of offensive or defensive nature as put by you.

 

[khurasaan1]

Yeah with all the upgrades that u mentioned ,Jf-17 will be no doubt be a true 4+ generation fighter. but upgrades require time, money and technologically advanced friends willing to help you.
France already dealt Jf-17 a major blow by denying avionics for it and now Russia denying its engine. though China can offer replacements to Pakistan for both but u cant really compare and compete with the experience of France and Russia in both these fields. So for me JF-17 is getting downgraded before getting upgraded.
Inspite of all the hurdles mentioned above ,lets say in next 7-8 years Jf-17 gets all the upgrades BUT in next 7-8 years India would have also progressed a great deal with MRCA and PAK FA coming into IAF.

I think PAF did not procure any advanced platform in 90s which is why it is at a disadvantage to IAF right now both in technology and in numbers. With India gaining more influence in this world day by day it is obvious that India will ty its best to deny advanced technology to Pakistan and a couple of examples with France and Russia is there for everyone to see.Even the F-16s PAF has comes with no use against india agreement(atleast in papers)
So if PAF wants to upgrade JF_17 either they will have to develop indigenous capability or diversify the countries from which it procures weapons and stop relying on China for everything.

Alhamdolillah everything is perfectly underway and Inshallah the world will be amazed with the JF17ns outclass capabilities.

 

[Manticore]

By 2015, inshAllah more then 60%, rather much more % would be BVR capable aircraft in our inventory. F-16s upgraded, FC-20s coming in, hopefully 150 JF-17s all BVR capable, so you are seeing at a good amount of BVR capable fleet.

Plus, J-10B is not yet finalized, engine is a big problem, so for now, its not a feasible product. It has much to attain to satisfy our much needed future requirements.

taimi , im confident on the bvr aspect -- but the 60% bvr + deep penetration capabilty is the lacking aspect

i dont want the battlefeild to be us -- its will bring far more devastation in all our sectors - including human life

if j10b doesnt become upto our expectations in the next 1-2 years-- i hope our leaders can foresee the situation and get alternative aircrafts -- before wasting another 5 years --[ i sincerely hope that im wrong -- otherwise , our missile delivery systems will see action quite early in the war-- and i hope it never comes to that point]