JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Thorough Pro]

most of our industry is not indigenous, they work under TAA's and don't do any research. They buy most of the critical parts and follow the technical drawings to assemble the final product.

The real indigenous industry is one that does everything from local resources, and no capitalist takes this kind of risks when the competition is with "made in XYZ" vs local, that's what happened to Adam Motor's "Revo"

I keep hearing about these "supporting industries" needed to build jet engines. Can you please shed some light on them?

Pakistan has a large and rapidly expanding automobile and autoparts industry. We have nearly 100% localization in motorcyles and tractors. This suggest there is know-how and ability to forge, mould, cut and machine metal products. As well as big enough industrial base to provide the inputs required for the auto/autoparts industry.

Yes we may not have the capability to produce blades for the stator and rotor since I believe they are forged from a single piece of titanium/ceramics and it is a very specialized process. However, things like the engine housing or fuel chambers, fuel handling piping etc can potentially be produced in Pakistan even today.

 

[White Lion]

Gas turbines, crystal blades, power management, cooling, cabling, computerized system management, fuel management, etc. I'm sure there are people in Pakistan who can start working on it, but we need a solid 10-15 years of investment before we see a demonstrator (much less a serviceable product). There's nothing wrong with that, but we should've started this back in 1979, 1989, or even 1999.

Simpler and logical step would be join either Turkey, China, Ukraine or Russia on their new engine development band wagon. Coproduce an engine at beginning similar to how we have have managed building all industries so far. May be by 2047 Pakistan would have all the required requisites.

 

[Scorpiooo]

As you know JF17 production rate has increased hence it is highly possible that the missing numbers can be filled by JF-17's otherwise F-16 has been provided by US as a carrot that would always find ways into PAF.

125-150 additional aircraft can be supplemented by looking into requirement of PN hence commonality would always minimize procurement and maintenance costs.

PN need heavy weight jets or even can say need of twin engine fighter's,
JFT cant fill out there requirement, even J10c will not enough to fullfill there need but can be be useful too some extend.
In future PN need some twin heavyweight fighters .. for them in PAF untill they don't have independent Air arm in PN

 

[araz]

PN need heavy weight jets or even can say need of twin engine fighter's,
JFT cant fill out there requirement, even J10c will not enough to fullfill there need but can be be useful too some extend.
In future PN need some twin heavyweight fighters .. for them in PAF untill they don't have independent Air arm in PN

Whereas a twin engined fighter is an ideal ask for all seaborne ops,the role can be filled by the 16/52 with CFT. However the irony is the armaments for this have been denied to PAF or are short ranged enough to not matter.
So our iron brother Will have to supply sonething to us in due course. Whether it will be the J11/16/so.ething similar or J30/35 remains to be seen. Failing that our Azm will eventually fill this role along with JFT.
A

 

[SurvivoR]

Can't Jeff get a CFT with a better engine? may be in blk 4

 

[Trango Towers]

Can't Jeff get a CFT with a better engine? may be in blk 4

Who Jeff?

 

[graphican]

Gas turbines, crystal blades, power management, cooling, cabling, computerized system management, fuel management, etc. I'm sure there are people in Pakistan who can start working on it, but we need a solid 10-15 years of investment before we see a demonstrator (much less a serviceable product). There's nothing wrong with that, but we should've started this back in 1979, 1989, or even 1999.

The best day to plant a tree was 25 years ago, and the second best day to plant the tree is today. Now.

 

[Scorpiooo]

Whereas a twin engined fighter is an ideal ask for all seaborne ops,the role can be filled by the 16/52 with CFT. However the irony is the armaments for this have been denied to PAF or are short ranged enough to not matter.
So our iron brother Will have to supply sonething to us in due course. Whether it will be the J11/16/so.ething similar or J30/35 remains to be seen. Failing that our Azm will eventually fill this role along with JFT.
A

PAF will not going dedicate F16 for navy that's obvious.
Yes we have only one source for twin engine heavyweight fighters thats are Chinese, but alot factors are hurdles in it Sach as
Financial limitations
Chinese's flanker and russian restrictions
j31/j35 are atleast 5 years away..

Lets see what going to happen in future, but one thing is sure PN need independent Air arm in decade or so on

Who Jeff?

He means JFTs

Can't Jeff get a CFT with a better engine? may be in blk 4

Even then they will not much handy for navel role

 

[Syntage]

First thing first guys.As India has inducted a squadron of Rafael, they will be making the strategies on their new platform as we speak.On the other hand, we are still talking about possible induction of blk 3 in 2nd quarter of 2022.We will be needing another atleast 6-10 months to develop our tactics on our new platform since we are incorporating some new techs in blk 3.By that time IAF would be ready & well versed on Rafael.
IMHO, we are much too late.If we get J-10Cs, the problem would be the same as we have no experience on that platform whatsoever.Flying once & developing tactics are two very different things.Tactics & Practice takes time.Developing the technical support infrastructure & training the crew is another exercise which takes time.

Now my question to out senior and well informed members is that why are we moving too slow and yet relaxed.Is there anything we don't know or we really are lethargic?

 

[PakFactor]

First thing first guys.As India has inducted a squadron of Rafael, they will be making the strategies on their new platform as we speak.On the other hand, we are still talking about possible induction of blk 3 in 2nd quarter of 2022.We will be needing another atleast 6-10 months to develop our tactics on our new platform since we are incorporating some new techs in blk 3.By that time IAF would be ready & well versed on Rafael.
IMHO, we are much too late.If we get J-10Cs, the problem would be the same as we have no experience on that platform whatsoever.Flying once & developing tactics are two very different things.Tactics & Practice takes time.Developing the technical support infrastructure & training the crew is another exercise which takes time.

Now my question to out senior and well informed members is that why are we moving too slow and yet relaxed.Is there anything we don't know or we really are lethargic?

How long they've had SU-30MKI and what has it done for them?
We are cursed and blessed with an incompetent neighbor and cursed with a snake like neighbor.

I'm positive PAF is working on tactics while BLK 3 was in development all air forces run scanerios.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Simpler and logical step would be join either Turkey, China, Ukraine or Russia on their new engine development band wagon. Coproduce an engine at beginning similar to how we have have managed building all industries so far. May be by 2047 Pakistan would have all the required requisites.

Yep the best optimal route is to co-build a consortium.

We don't have the individual economies-of-scale China or the US have, so emulating Europe's model is likely the next best route available to us.

However, the consortium route does mean changing our operational requirements a bit to adjust with the direction of the consortium. E.g., Turkey's focusing on a twin-engine heavy fighter and a 132 kN engine.

Likewise, the Turks are developing a 9-10-ton attack helicopter (similar to Mi-28NE or Apache). So, if we're cool with these design directions, then yeah, a consortium with Turkey would work.

 

[Trango Towers]

First thing first guys.As India has inducted a squadron of Rafael, they will be making the strategies on their new platform as we speak.On the other hand, we are still talking about possible induction of blk 3 in 2nd quarter of 2022.We will be needing another atleast 6-10 months to develop our tactics on our new platform since we are incorporating some new techs in blk 3.By that time IAF would be ready & well versed on Rafael.
IMHO, we are much too late.If we get J-10Cs, the problem would be the same as we have no experience on that platform whatsoever.Flying once & developing tactics are two very different things.Tactics & Practice takes time.Developing the technical support infrastructure & training the crew is another exercise which takes time.

Now my question to out senior and well informed members is that why are we moving too slow and yet relaxed.Is there anything we don't know or we really are lethargic?

Lol. So between now and 2nd half of 2022 paf will go to sleep. Oh dear

 

[UKBengali]

No engine produced any country comes within 15-20 years of American turbofans. Americans are already on the verge of fielding adaptive cycle turbofans. EJs are great for medium class but the Brits haven’t really worked on a heavy class engine since Spey.

That is not the way to look at it.

Rolls Royce can produce a military turbofan on the same level as GE and P&W if there is a requirement for it. It has not done so as it was never asked to do it.

As for heavy class, well RR makes some of the most powerful civilian turbofans and that, combined with the knowledge from EJ-2000 and their 40% share in the development of the back-up F-35 engine, that they jointly developed with GE is sufficient for them to develop a 6th gen engine comparable to what GE is doing for the US.

Remember that GE did not make the 5th gen jet engines for either F-22 or F-35 and its experience is limited to its 60% input in the development of the F-35 backup engine and its huge civilian turbofans and so that is not really any better than RR has.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That is not the way to look at it.

Rolls Royce can produce a military turbofan on the same level as GE and P&W if there is a requirement for it. It has not done so as it was never asked to do it.

As for heavy class, well RR makes some of the most powerful civilian turbofans and that, combined with the knowledge from EJ-2000 and their 40% share in the development of the back-up F-35 engine, that they jointly developed with GE is sufficient for them to develop a 6th gen engine comparable to what GE is doing for the US.

Remember that GE did not make the 5th gen jet engines for either F-22 or F-35 and its experience is limited to its 60% input in the development of the F-35 backup engine and its huge civilian turbofans and so that is not really any better than RR has.

Yep. I'd say UK is actually second-place (worldwide) in terms of aerospace technology, they just can't deliver due to the lack of economies-of-scale. So a lot of their work drives joint-ventures and consortiums. France is the second place to me only because they can sustain stuff on their own, for now...

 

[Marker]

Gas turbines, crystal blades, power management, cooling, cabling, computerized system management, fuel management, etc. I'm sure there are people in Pakistan who can start working on it, but we need a solid 10-15 years of investment before we see a demonstrator (much less a serviceable product). There's nothing wrong with that, but we should've started this back in 1979, 1989, or even 1999.

Establishment of infrastructure for aero engine parts and accessories manufacturing is only possible if GoP and PAF attract local and foreign investors aggressively.

The products produced should not only be utilised by in-country military and civil aviation industries but also pitched in international aviation market. Therefore infrastructure should not focus on a particular aero engine parts or accessories but should be able to produce parts and accessories of almost all type of aero engines.

For example, an engine oil pump and/or fuel pump manufacturing unit should specialise in producing and quality testing oil and/or fuel pump for both civil and military aero engines.

Such units must have their own R&D so that they should be able to produce products according to customer specifications.

Acquiring TOT for a particular aero engine is not a viable approach to establish infrastructure to manufacture aero engines.