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JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

I beg to differ.
Martin baker is probably the only name in ejection seats.
Tempest is on the cards.
The intellectual property is there. They seem to shift manufacturing to other places
Nope, Collins aerospace is a big name in ejection seats for American aircraft as well but the ejection seat contract for the F-35 to appease the British.
Bhai Rolls Royce is a British company and they make very good engines
Not as good as American engines he is right, I don't expect them to be able to compete when Americans have much more money for R&D.
 
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Bhai Rolls Royce is a British company and they make very good engines
No questions but are they at par with the US engines. As to engines the EJ series are really good but then again are they in the class of PW 129 or GE 135,? That is the question.
Kind regards.
A
 
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No questions but are they at par with the US engines. As to engines the EJ series are really good but then again are they in the class of PW 129 or GE 135,? That is the question.
Kind regards.
A

No engine produced any country comes within 15-20 years of American turbofans. Americans are already on the verge of fielding adaptive cycle turbofans. EJs are great for medium class but the Brits haven’t really worked on a heavy class engine since Spey.
 
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This only indicates one thing that is the numbers that will be acquired are high. May be 12 off the shelf with 60-100 locally produced.
China is considering to provide other platform as well along with many other technologies so that China has a foot hole in South America. China has a budget allocation specially for South America.
I would agree with the assumption. Offsets would require larger numbers than 10 to 12. However Argintinian economy remains a concern .
A
No engine produced any country comes within 15-20 years of American turbofans. Americans are already on the verge of fielding adaptive cycle turbofans. EJs are great for medium class but the Brits haven’t really worked on a heavy class engine since Spey.
They do not have the economy of scale to do so. Economically it is dire straits here in any case. You talk of corruption in the third world but the corruption in UK has resulted in a massive outflow of basic jobs that most of the not so intelligent girls and boys would have gone for( even some of the intelligent ones do these jobs as a means to earning quick money during holidays). The situation is going to result in UK going downhill soon. Even in other spheres they have been unable to maintain the industries which once fuelped British growth.
A
 
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To build engines, you need to have supporting industries; those are none existent.

I will suggest you read on Bilal's post; he has done an excellent job of highlighting the malaise and provided recommendations; you dont do TOT when you have no foundations.
I keep hearing about these "supporting industries" needed to build jet engines. Can you please shed some light on them?

Pakistan has a large and rapidly expanding automobile and autoparts industry. We have nearly 100% localization in motorcyles and tractors. This suggest there is know-how and ability to forge, mould, cut and machine metal products. As well as big enough industrial base to provide the inputs required for the auto/autoparts industry.

Yes we may not have the capability to produce blades for the stator and rotor since I believe they are forged from a single piece of titanium/ceramics and it is a very specialized process. However, things like the engine housing or fuel chambers, fuel handling piping etc can potentially be produced in Pakistan even today.
 
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China enjoys a deep foothold in SA. K8 was sold in that region like hot cakes.
Indeed K8 were sold like hot cakes still they do not fall in the category of front line fighter aircraft. An Airforce is not know by its trainers rather its frontline aircraft.

China would benefit if those countries procure JF-17's that operate K-8 as it would be easier induction for pilots and technical staff.

No questions but are they at par with the US engines. As to engines the EJ series are really good but then again are they in the class of PW 129 or GE 135,? That is the question.
Kind regards.
A
British Engine program was at its pinnacle during WW2.
https://www.britannica.com/technology/Merlin-engine

However with jet engines and now high by pass turbofan engines RR Engines fell behind in regards to military engines but on the Civilian side have shown they are very very good.

Please do read about the STOVL technology for the F-35.
 
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Indeed K8 were sold like hot cakes still they do not fall in the category of front line fighter aircraft. An Airforce is not know by its trainers rather its frontline aircraft.

China would benefit if those countries procure JF-17's that operate K-8 as it would be easier induction for pilots and technical staff.


British Engine program was at its pinnacle during WW2.
https://www.britannica.com/technology/Merlin-engine

However with jet engines and now high by pass turbofan engines RR Engines fell behind in regards to military engines but on the Civilian side have shown they are very very good.

Please do read about the STOVL technology for the F-35.

K8s are used as light attack by many South American countries as well as trainer.
 
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no totally wrong
j10c is bigger plane
bigger thrust to weight
bigger ew suites and bigger radar..
bigger more powerful.engine
everything in j10 is 30% better .

a small.fighter is always limited in improvements

this explains why
USA enlarged early hornet to super hornet
Sweden the gripen c was enlarged to gripen ng
this is why India is developing mark 2 tejas and stopping mark1a at just 120 planes

assuming thunders remain in service until 2050 do you not think pakistan planners are thinking
we need more than block 3 to tackle potential more Rafale bigger tejas mark 2 and super upgraded mki
this is being discussed for certain
and that answer will.be j10c or more f16
We all know tajas mark 1 even 1A has alot design flaws even there IAF and IN do not want to induct at first place and now IAF have to induct in limited numbers due government force, in simple word tajas mark is flop case thats way they want to move to mark 2 asap
 
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Another way to look at it would have been to simply join the J-10 programme, instead of the developing the JF-17, and licence manufacture the J-10 in Pakistan. That would have allowed significant cost synergies with China in terms of service, support, and weapons, and streamline the airforce into essentially two 4.5 gen fighter types, the Viper variants and the J-10, with incremental blocks and upgrades, similar to the Viper.

It could be argued that the PAF couldn't operate two 4.5 gen platforms in sufficient numbers to replace the Mirages and F-7P/PGs, but consider the cost so far in developing and manufacturing the JF-17, it wouldn't have been that different in my view. In addition, you wouldn't need a like-for-like replacement of all the J-7s and Mirages, a smaller number of J-10s are more effective in terms of capability than a larger number of lower tech fighters, especially when you include force multipliers into the mix (datalink, AWACS, aerial refuelling, etc).
J10C is good option if inducted in limited numbers at max 3 to 4 sqr. They will fill in the number with F16
Why we have to stop JTF program, its will still have to replace alot of F7s and mirage till 2030

As you opnion to move to local assembly of J10C, we should not forget that flyaway cost of JFT are much less then J10C, PAF want work horses that have less flyaway cost
 
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Yep that's why I think them freezing the JF-17B and Block-III as-is, and then extending the production run, is possible. It's a good low-cost fighter, and future blocks would continue to have better electronics.
Make sense, might even better engine too in coming blocks with minor enhancement
 
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J10C is good option if inducted in limited numbers at max 3 to 4 sqr.
3-4 sqr are 50-70 aircraft not limited numbers. Remember PAF operated only 70 odd F-16 for a very long time.
They will fill in the number with F16
To the numbers PAF would like F-16's.
Otherwise JF-17 will be enough to supplement.
Why we have to stop JTF program, its will still have to replace alot of F7s and mirage till 2030
To fill this role PAF needs to procure more F-16. If unable then it need to develop a Medium weight JF-17 derivative similar to F-16 XL.
As you opnion to move to local assembly of J10C,
J-10's do not provide any capability over to that JF-17 provides.
we should not forget that flyaway cost of JFT are much less then J10C
There is no point comparing if one does not bring anything significant.
PAF want work horses that have less flyaway cost
The work horse that PAF wants is JF-17.
IF considering PN requirements then PAF would need to induct some other platform most likely a Flanker Derivation either from Russia, Belarus, Ukraine or China.
 
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3-4 sqr are 50-70 aircraft not limited numbers. Remember PAF operated only 70 odd F-16 for a very long time.

To the numbers PAF would like F-16's.
Otherwise JF-17 will be enough to supplement.

To fill this role PAF needs to procure more F-16. If unable then it need to develop a Medium weight JF-17 derivative similar to F-16 XL.

J-10's do not provide any capability over to that JF-17 provides.

There is no point comparing if one does not bring anything significant.

The work horse that PAF wants is JF-17.
IF considering PN requirements then PAF would need to induct some other platform most likely a Flanker Derivation either from Russia, Belarus, Ukraine or China.
As of intial plan PAF want 150 f16 and 250 JFT that make numbers 400
PAF doctrine remains to have 450 to plus fighter

So we we still se gap of 50 jets in that , thats was to be filled 3rd off the shelf fighter,
as now F16 are 70 odd , so this gap remain 125 even 150 jets. That will filled out with by PAF some way or another way
 
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As of intial plan PAF want 150 f16 and 250 JFT that make numbers 400
PAF doctrine remains to have 450 to plus fighter

So we we still se gap of 50 jets in that , thats was to be filled 3rd off the shelf fighter,
as now F16 are 70 odd , so this gap remain 125 even 150 jets. That will filled out with by PAF some way or another way
As you know JF17 production rate has increased hence it is highly possible that the missing numbers can be filled by JF-17's otherwise F-16 has been provided by US as a carrot that would always find ways into PAF.

125-150 additional aircraft can be supplemented by looking into requirement of PN hence commonality would always minimize procurement and maintenance costs.
 
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I keep hearing about these "supporting industries" needed to build jet engines. Can you please shed some light on them?

Pakistan has a large and rapidly expanding automobile and autoparts industry. We have nearly 100% localization in motorcyles and tractors. This suggest there is know-how and ability to forge, mould, cut and machine metal products. As well as big enough industrial base to provide the inputs required for the auto/autoparts industry.

Yes we may not have the capability to produce blades for the stator and rotor since I believe they are forged from a single piece of titanium/ceramics and it is a very specialized process. However, things like the engine housing or fuel chambers, fuel handling piping etc can potentially be produced in Pakistan even today.
Gas turbines, crystal blades, power management, cooling, cabling, computerized system management, fuel management, etc. I'm sure there are people in Pakistan who can start working on it, but we need a solid 10-15 years of investment before we see a demonstrator (much less a serviceable product). There's nothing wrong with that, but we should've started this back in 1979, 1989, or even 1999.
 
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