JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[iLION12345_1]

To begin with. The great jet in making from past 20 years, the pride of nation can't still pull 9Gs... a basic trait of most modern 4th gen fighters. Despite all axis fly by wire. We said it will be 4+ or even 4.5! The only good thing about this fighter would be PL15, we don't know yet if and when PL15 is coming. If not for the PL15, there was nothing special about this jet as compared to the competition. I am not impressed by the time they have taken for this.

Remember this jet could have started off with almost all these features in block 1 as well back in 2007. It was out inability that resulted in induction of a 3.5 gen block 1. We have been catching up on our lackings from past 10+ years. The engine problem existed during the initial design phase of this plane as well. Some 20 years later, back to square one. Working in patch works?

I’m very sorry but…No.

First of all, how is 9Gs any sort of requirement for a modern jet? Nobody is going to be pulling 9Gs in combat these days unless the pilot makes a mistake. Not even an F-16 can do that realistically because of what it’ll be carrying. Heck even the Russian 5th Gen fighter is limited to 8G, is that suddenly an ancient aircraft now? That’s just a very poor excuse to call the JF-17 a bad aircraft, sure it can’t do 9Gs on paper while most other 4th generation aircraft can, but to call that a requirement for a modern aircraft is not correct.

“The only good thing about this aircraft is the PL-15”, forgetting the fact that it provides 80% of the capability of much more expensive jets while also being entirely sanction free. What else do you expect from a 25-30 million dollar jet? Be realistic. That’s like buying a Mehran and complaining about not having S-Class Luxury.

Yeah I’m aware there have been plenty of mistakes made in the project and i myself am not happy with its current state either, it could have been much more. Some of that is due to bad decisions on our side and some due to Chinese pressure, and a major part as well due to how we drifted away from the west, because if I recall correctly the plan was for this thing to compatibility with both western and Chinese technology.

But in no way is the JF-17 a slow or a bad project, you can find issues with everything if you start to nitpick, but considering how it could have ended up (look to the neighbors, that’s the “competition” you’re complaining about.), it’s doing pretty well, this project always had and still does have a very tight budget (yes it could still have been managed better), but to have all these things in 2007 (which to be frank was impossible anyways considering a lot of this technology wasn’t mainstream), who was going to pay for that?

And what exactly do you mean by “engine problem” here? I’m not sure why everyone just thinks the JF-17 has a bad engine, it’s not a bad engine. It’s just not an ideal engine, the issue here is that we have no other options. RD-93 was the only realistic option when the aircraft was being made, The Chinese option appeared recently and replacing it now would be a costly affair (I personally still wish they’d do it for block 3), PAF has been well aware that the jet can use a better engine and that’s why they’ve been working on RD93MA, now if the Russians couldn’t get it ready in time. What are we to do? That still doesn’t make this a bad aircraft nor does it make the block 3 (which is a massive upgrade, no matter how much you try to downplay it) a “patch-work”.

I still strongly agree with the lack of local R&D and indigenization however, but that’s again a broader problem than the JF-17 project.

 

[Big_bud]

I’m very sorry but…No.

First of all, how is 9Gs any sort of requirement for a modern jet? Nobody is going to be pulling 9Gs in combat these days unless the pilot makes a mistake. Not even an F-16 can do that realistically because of what it’ll be carrying. Heck even the Russian 5th Gen fighter is limited to 8G, is that suddenly an ancient aircraft now? That’s just a very poor excuse to call the JF-17 a bad aircraft, sure it can’t do 9Gs on paper while most other 4th generation aircraft can, but to call that a requirement for a modern aircraft is not correct.

“The only good thing about this aircraft is the PL-15”, forgetting the fact that it provides 80% of the capability of much more expensive jets while also being entirely sanction free. What else do you expect from a 25-30 million dollar jet? Be realistic. That’s like buying a Mehran and complaining about not having S-Class Luxury.

Yeah I’m aware there have been plenty of mistakes made in the project and i myself am not happy with its current state either, it could have been much more. Some of that is due to bad decisions on our side and some due to Chinese pressure, and a major part as well due to how we drifted away from the west, because if I recall correctly the plan was for this thing to compatibility with both western and Chinese technology.

But in no way is the JF-17 a slow or a bad project, you can find issues with everything if you start to nitpick, but considering how it could have ended up (look to the neighbors, that’s the “competition” you’re complaining about.), it’s doing pretty well, this project always had and still does have a very tight budget (yes it could still have been managed better), but to have all these things in 2007 (which to be frank was impossible anyways considering a lot of this technology wasn’t mainstream), who was going to pay for that?

And what exactly do you mean by “engine problem” here? I’m not sure why everyone just thinks the JF-17 has a bad engine, it’s not a bad engine. It’s just not an ideal engine, the issue here is that we have no other options. RD-93 was the only realistic option when the aircraft was being made, The Chinese option appeared recently and replacing it now would be a costly affair (I personally still wish they’d do it for block 3), PAF has been well aware that the jet can use a better engine and that’s why they’ve been working on RD93MA, now if the Russians couldn’t get it ready in time. What are we to do? That still doesn’t make this a bad aircraft nor does it make the block 3 (which is a massive upgrade, no matter how much you try to downplay it) a “patch-work”.

I still strongly agree with the lack of local R&D and indigenization however, but that’s again a broader problem than the JF-17 project.

I haven't said its bad anywhere. But it leaves several things to be desired. Its almost there but not quite there yet. If we start defending like that, we can almost defend anything. Not able to hit 9Gs is a missed benchmark by any definition in my view. It should have been done. Looking at Indian failures to cover our own mistakes is also a poor mindset. RD93 is not a bad engine, I never said that. But its surely not an engine for a 2020 jet, its time is gone IMO. Having our own jet was supposed to mean that we develop capability, grow our own industrial knowledge and have an independent foreign policy. Reality is we are still stuck in diplomatic and foreign relations induced limitations. We are unable to procure parts of our liking, and we are unable to build our own in Pakistan to flip off deniers. In 20 yrs we mainly only learnt how to assemble the jet and run some QC tests. So what ended up happening is, we started with a humble goal. And even then we are slightly under achieving. Doesn't sound well for PAF's flagship project. We could have just bought some used jets in lesser time and probably similar cost.

 

[araz]

So they upgraded literally everything except the engine, and you’re still not happy. Just great.

You just pointed out the few factors that are strictly related to the engine to make it seem like they’ve done nothing to the aircraft, completely ignoring the fact that that it can carry an entire Ton of ordinance more than block 1, the new Avionics, the new radar, the new missiles, the new MAWS, new RWRs, the new EW suite, the new HUD, the new HMD/S, an extra hardpoint, the new airframe makeup, increased fuel capacity (that’s how the range is still the same with more weight)…need I go on?

It’s not that they haven’t done enough, it’s that you don’t know enough.
they’ve upgraded nearly every single aspect of the aircraft, F-16 has gotten new blocks with a quarter of the upgrades this thing has.

And this jets limitations have Absolutely nothing to do with the J-10C, no matter how good you make it, the J-10C will always be significantly better, why? Because it’s much bigger. There is no conflict of interest given China has been pushing the JF-17 for export literally everywhere but has not marketed the J-10C At all.

China has already made a new engine for the JF-17, in-fact China is doing more for its export than we ever have, the reason it didn’t get a new engine in Pakistani service is because we wanted the Russian one, as it would fit in much easier with existing maintenance sites and logistics, however that engine is not ready yet (maybe we will see it in the future, maybe not). I assume PAF wanted it for the block 3 but development has been delayed.
Keep in mind, the JF-17 is not Underpowered. It has sufficient power to carry a full load, but a newer engine would be a drastic increase in performance regardless, so we’re all hoping it gets one eventually. Not reaching full potential just means there’s more to do with the bird, the F-16 is 3 times older than the JF-17 and The F-16V isn’t even its full potential.

The only point I agree with you on is the need for indigenization, but that’s a broader problem in the country than just the JF-17.

On building the plane indegenously 100% I still think it is a matter of time and gaining expertise. PAC does not have the steel infrastructure ( Bilalkhan777 said neither does China!!!!!). And all the alloys need in house building which could be quite expensive setting up infrastructure for. Perhaps making the investment prohibitive. So essentially, with our current capability and industrial layout we cannot do 100% irrespective of how we try.
Then there are issues with the engine. Now every few years the pdfers have a new outcry about how underpowered The JFT is and how much things will improve with a newer engine. The question is which one? The MA is not available and unlikely to be till 2024 ( any problems could delay things further). PAC seems reluctant to go for a Chinese engine (one wonders why!) and EJ2XX series are prohibitively expensive adding 10 million per plane to your cost. When you are buying these ones on loan how are you going to jistify a 10 million hike in the cost plus integration costs plus infrastructure costs( even if you are sold the EJ series). So there are a lot of questiins people have not dissected out properly.
The fact is, for all practical purposes, there is no suitable engine around in the price bracket which has the same reliability as the RD series.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I haven't said its bad anywhere. But it leaves several things to be desired. Its almost there but not quite there yet. If we start defending like that, we can almost defend anything. Not able to hit 9Gs is a missed benchmark by any definition in my view. It should have been done. Looking at Indian failures to cover our own mistakes is also a poor mindset. RD93 is not a bad engine, I never said that. But its surely not an engine for a 2020 jet, its time is gone IMO. Having our own jet was supposed to mean that we develop capability, grow our own industrial knowledge and have an independent foreign policy. Reality is we are still stuck in diplomatic and foreign relations induced limitations. We are unable to procure parts of our liking, and we are unable to build our own in Pakistan to flip off deniers. In 20 yrs we mainly only learnt how to assemble the jet and run some QC tests. So what ended up happening is, we started with a humble goal. And even then we are slightly under achieving. Doesn't sound well for PAF's flagship project. We could have just bought some used jets in lesser time and probably similar cost.

If you have to divert the conversation to corruption, geopolitical and foreign policy issues I’m afraid you’ve already lost the plot. I don’t disagree with you on any of those and they’ve surely effected the JF program a lot, Pakistan could have and should have gotten a lot more out of it than it has.

but seeing as you’re just repeating the same performance issue with the aircraft over and over without actually acknowledging any of the counter-arguments or realizing how minor of an issue that is in the grand scheme of things, I’ll leave this conversation here.

 

[Trango Towers]

On building the plane indegenously 100% I still think it is a matter of time and gaining expertise. PAC does not have the steel infrastructure ( Bilalkhan777 said neither does China!!!!!). And all the alloys need in house building which could be quite expensive setting up infrastructure for. Perhaps making the investment prohibitive. So essentially, witb our current capability and industrial layout we cannot do 100% irrespe tive of how we try.
Then there are issues with the engine. Now every few years the pdfers have a new outcry about how underpowered The JFT is and how much things will improve with a newer engine. The question is which one? The MA is not available and unlikely to be till 2024 ( any problems could dleay things further). PAC seems reluctant to go for a Chinese engine (one wonders why!) and EJ2XX series are prohibitively expensive adding 10 million per plane to your cost. When you are buying these ones on loan how are you going to jistify a 10 million hike in the cost plus integration costs plus infrastructure costs( even if you are sold the EJ series). So there are a lot of questiins people have not dissected out properly.
The fact is, for all practical purposes, there is no suitable engine around in the price bracket which has the same reliability as the RD series.

Steel ?? World moved towards aluminium and Titanium and composites and we are at steel. Ahhh nevermind I stopped reading

 

[araz]

Steel ?? World moved towards aluminium and Titanium and composites and we are at steel. Ahhh nevermind I stopped reading

OK.
A

 

[iLION12345_1]

On building the plane indegenously 100% I still think it is a matter of time and gaining expertise. PAC does not have the steel infrastructure ( Bilalkhan777 said neither does China!!!!!). And all the alloys need in house building which could be quite expensive setting up infrastructure for. Perhaps making the investment prohibitive. So essentially, witb our current capability and industrial layout we cannot do 100% irrespe tive of how we try.
Then there are issues with the engine. Now every few years the pdfers have a new outcry about how underpowered The JFT is and how much things will improve with a newer engine. The question is which one? The MA is not available and unlikely to be till 2024 ( any problems could dleay things further). PAC seems reluctant to go for a Chinese engine (one wonders why!) and EJ2XX series are prohibitively expensive adding 10 million per plane to your cost. When you are buying these ones on loan how are you going to jistify a 10 million hike in the cost plus integration costs plus infrastructure costs( even if you are sold the EJ series). So there are a lot of questiins people have not dissected out properly.
The fact is, for all practical purposes, there is no suitable engine around in the price bracket which has the same reliability as the RD series.

That’s true, but I guess the point here is not to build an aircraft 100% indigenously, it’s to actually enhance local design and production capabilities using the JF-17 program, which while we have done to some extent, is nowhere near what we could have gotten out of the project.

That is surely down to the complacency that was present with just assembling the aircraft or making some parts for it rather than actively trying to innovate using the JF-17 as a base (think of it this way: PAC and other private companies designing parts/upgrades for future use on the JF-17, or PAC taking more foreign tech, like that from South Africa and adapting it for use on the aircraft). Even if none of these research projects succeeded, they would be a sort of push towards increasing local R&D instead of just locally manufacturing foreign tech. That’s part of the reason why I liked Azm so much, even if it was never expected to succeed, it felt like a different project, one which started from the very bottom at basic research, instead of first looking for foreign suppliers and designs to localize.

As for the engines, well for the original two blocks, Chinese engines weren’t an option, RD-93 was the only realistic one. For block 3, while the Chinese engine is basically ready, it would be a pretty costly endeavor in itself to put Chinese engines in the next batch of JFs for Pakistan given our training and maintenance infrastructure is all set up for the RD series.
The Chinese engine is still an option, and I personally wish they’d use them for the JF-17 given the interest in the J-10C (which will likely come with a Chinese engine), but it seems the PAF still wants to wait for RD93MA, let’s hope there’s not more delays to that engine.

Bottom line for me is; I hope they don’t stop here. If block 3 really is the end of the JF we might never see a new engine for it, and that’s pretty saddening to think, I hope they have more planned for it in the future than just an engine, if that.

 

[khanasifm]

To begin with. The great jet in making from past 20 years, the pride of nation can't still pull 9Gs... a basic trait of most modern 4th gen fighters. Despite all axis fly by wire. We said it will be 4+ or even 4.5! The only good thing about this fighter would be PL15, we don't know yet if and when PL15 is coming. If not for the PL15, there was nothing special about this jet as compared to the competition. I am not impressed by the time they have taken for this.

Remember this jet could have started off with almost all these features in block 1 as well back in 2007. It was out inability that resulted in induction of a 3.5 gen block 1. We have been catching up on our lackings from past 10+ years. The engine problem existed during the initial design phase of this plane as well. Some 20 years later, back to square one. Working in patch works?

9g is not a gold star there are still 7 g f-35 and f-18 and others never heard at Lockheed let’s replace aircraft because it’s not 9 g or at USAF

 

[SQ8]

We dropped the ball on Denel and South Africa. Yes, it'd cost money to basically transplant their operations to Pakistan. But we're talking about shifting people, IP, and other non-capital-intensive elements. While the UAE can drop dimes, it'll never overpay for anything. Despite being a Gulf state, the UAE is ruthlessly pragmatic. I guarantee you we wasted a lot more money in the last 5 years than whatever the UAE spent to transfer Denel's organs into EDGE Group, Halcon, etc.

I go back to my articles about the Marlin LRAAM. I get that it wouldn't have been as long-range as the PL-15E. Fair. But it would've given us more independence in how to configure the JF-17 Block-3. It also would've helped build an R&D base for future DPMR technology which, in 5, 10, or 15 years, could translate into a cutting-edge AAM as good as any other available to us on the world market. Instead of paying a pretty dime for the Albatros-NG, we could've been developing a 60+ km range SAM based on the Marlin and Umkhonto. I don't even need to take note of South Africa's prior work on ramjet applications.

We're even talking about the JF-17's engine. Well, Ukraine thinks it can develop an RD-93-type engine. We can call it vaporware or "just an illustration," but Ukraine's R&D foundations are leagues ahead of Pakistan. Their 'vapourware' can materialize into substance because they know how to do it. We don't. Worse, we don't want to put our money towards learning or building those foundations. We can literally see what UAE and KSA are doing.

Unless we have leaders who just say, "enough is enough of this garbage," our future involves taking out loans to buy Chinese weapons. God knows no one's even doing anything to change our fiscal state so that we don't fall further into debt. Our military capability will gradually diminish relative to others because there's only so much you can buy with a PKR perpetually losing its value. One answer to our problem, perhaps, is the fact that to build a strong indigenous defence industry, you need strong economic thinking. Our economic thinking is woefully weak, so the R&D culture, industries, etc all mirror it.


View attachment 793546

The brochure layout should explain everything on what sort of mentality is in charge.

 

[Goku-kun]

The word of the air chief isn’t the word of god, they will always hype up JF-17 because it’s a local product, the JF-17 doesn’t compare to the J-10C on a one-one basis in any metric, but it’s a very good aircraft for its size.

The service ceiling has likely not changed, it’s not a rigid number, it’s been quoted all over the place. PAC website still say 55,500 ft.

I think I’m repeating this for the third time now, but the JF-17 does NOT need a better engine to carry more payload. They increased a hardpoint by adding a hardpoint, that’s about it. To increase the payload the wings and airframe were strengthened, just as the wing roots were strengthened in block 2. The engine has More than enough thrust for a fully loaded JF-17. An engine with more thrust would make the aircraft generally more maneuverable, but people are acting like the engine in it current is underpowered or bad, it’s really not.
To put it into perspective, the Tejas has a similar thrust (84KN) and can carry over half a ton more ordinance than even the JF-17 block 3 because of its delta design (more wing strength and lift, but also higher drag, making it less maneuverable and more prone to losing energy.)

okay than put weapon carrying capability aside for a moment but what about the newer radar and avionics e.g; maws and aesa radar etc they will require more power so is the current engine sufficient enough to provide enough power to all these things..

 

[Big_bud]

9g is not a gold star there are still 7 g f-35 and f-18 and others never heard at Lockheed let’s replace aircraft because it’s not 9 g or at USAF

View attachment 793913

Which stealth capabilities does JF17 has? You are making a ridiculous comparison, can JF take a vertical launch?

 

[Big_bud]

If you have to divert the conversation to corruption, geopolitical and foreign policy issues I’m afraid you’ve already lost the plot. I don’t disagree with you on any of those and they’ve surely effected the JF program a lot, Pakistan could have and should have gotten a lot more out of it than it has.

but seeing as you’re just repeating the same performance issue with the aircraft over and over without actually acknowledging any of the counter-arguments or realizing how minor of an issue that is in the grand scheme of things, I’ll leave this conversation here.

I never said we have a bad jet at hand. And the arguments you are providing are not adding to the conversation IMO because I don't disagree with you. I disagree at the time line. We should have gotten a future ready product by now (Good for its role for next 15-20 yrs till we get our 5th gen fighter). We should have and could have used our energies on a truly modern 5th gen aircraft if JFT was complete by now OR a much advanced block after this block 3. But here we are, still at a slippery slope. We took 5 yrs, we are still slightly lacking in my view, have not realised potential of this platform fully. And we have 100 odd block 1s & 2s to upgrade to latest standard too! WTF sort of reactive air force we are running? By the time we have built our "ACE" block 3, block 1s and 2s are already lacking behind in the game. We are actually replacing f7s and mirages with a similarly old tech/ old capability aircraft, no HMD, can't use modern missiles, just like F7s and mirages. i hope you get my point. The time line is disappointing and concerning. We will be still working on JFT till 2030s, upgrading our old B1s & B2s probably building a B4 as well. Then who would work on 5th Gen? And how will we reach all 5th gen air force time line by 2047?

 

[Invictus01]

Which stealth capabilities does JF17 has? You are making a ridiculous comparison, can JF take a vertical launch?

No point in arguing with egoistic & extremely nationalist individual
It's like you're talking to a wall
Better let them be happy in their own little shell
Like comparing JF17 to an F35 Is ridiculous to begin with
Having said that
JF17 is an ordinary fighter with the primary aim of inducting a decent 3gen fighter in enough numbers to maintain the required number of squadrons against Indian & nothing more
It's current configuration is pretty average but that's what you can get in 25-30 million a piece
As far as the engines are concerned going for the Chinese option is not a bright idea
Chinese tend to over exaggerate their products
They still don't have the required metallurgical bench marks & experience to come up with a reliable engine
Remember J17 is a single engine aircraft
You can't go wrong with the engine

 

[Dreamer.]

And how will we reach all 5th gen air force time line by 2047?

Don't be silly, there is no such timeline. And the JF-17 needs to keep improving alongside any 5th gen platform PAF might acquire.

 

[Big_bud]

Don't be silly, there is no such timeline. And the JF-17 needs to keep improving alongside any 5th gen platform PAF might acquire.

Our air chief said in an interview we want to switch to an all 5th Gen aircraft air force by 2047. I think that particular interview was by Sohail Aman if my memory serves right.

Here's a link to another statement made by Mujahid Anwar Khan, his successor.

https://www.asianmilitaryreview.com/2019/01/pakistan-air-force-builds-for-the-future/

So we are set up to failing another time line then? We say things that we never really mean. And it doesn't really matter what we say because everything is negotiable at the end? There are a list of genuine excuses in our excuse box? I wish we stay on target and PAF over achieves on Project Azm! In case of JFT though we have probably under promised and yet under delivered.