JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[SQ8]

I never said we have a bad jet at hand. And the arguments you are providing are not adding to the conversation IMO because I don't disagree with you. I disagree at the time line. We should have gotten a future ready product by now (Good for its role for next 15-20 yrs till we get our 5th gen fighter). We should have and could have used our energies on a truly modern 5th gen aircraft if JFT was complete by now OR a much advanced block after this block 3. But here we are, still at a slippery slope. We took 5 yrs, we are still slightly lacking in my view, have not realised potential of this platform fully. And we have 100 odd block 1s & 2s to upgrade to latest standard too! WTF sort of reactive air force we are running? By the time we have built our "ACE" block 3, block 1s and 2s are already lacking behind in the game. We are actually replacing f7s and mirages with a similarly old tech/ old capability aircraft, no HMD, can't use modern missiles, just like F7s and mirages. i hope you get my point. The time line is disappointing and concerning. We will be still working on JFT till 2030s, upgrading our old B1s & B2s probably building a B4 as well. Then who would work on 5th Gen? And how will we reach all 5th gen air force time line by 2047?

I forgot completely where Pakistan had the booming economy from 2008 to 2020 that would have easily enabled this excellent progress you talk about.

 

[Dreamer.]

Our air chief said in an interview we want to switch to an all 5th Gen aircraft air force by 2047. I think that particular interview was by Sohail Aman if my memory serves right.

Here's a link to another statement made by Mujahid Anwar Khan, his successor.

https://www.asianmilitaryreview.com/2019/01/pakistan-air-force-builds-for-the-future/

So we are set up to failing another time line then? We say things that we never really mean. And it doesn't really matter what we say because everything is negotiable at the end? There are a list of genuine excuses in our excuse box? I wish we stay on target and PAF over achieves on Project Azm! In case of JFT though we have probably under promised and yet under delivered.

Like i said, there is no such timeline. I explained it all at the time when this issue of the 5th gen statements by ACM was first raised on these forums. Go and read those posts to enhance your understanding about what the goal actually IS before talking about 'failing timelines' or whatever. Briefly being a 5th gen air force does not mean having only 5th gen aircraft. 4/4.5 gen aircraft will be part of it. It's only about achieving certain set of capabilities. None of the ACM's ever said anything about "ALL" 5th gen. You guys simply misquote and misinterpret and then come up with imaginary failures based on your own expectations which were never real to begin with.

 

[Big_bud]

I forgot completely where Pakistan had the booming economy from 2008 to 2020 that would have easily enabled this excellent progress you talk about.

Such military projects are not based on booming economies. Projects scope defines everything we will do on day 0 and what we will not do. How much funds we will require? What is our contingency plan etc?

Such statements sound apologist at best.

 

[SQ8]

Such military projects are not based on booming economies. Projects scope defines everything we will do on day 0 and what we will not do. How much funds we will require? What is our contingency plan etc?

Such statements sound apologist at best.

Project scope also includes budget for the project for each year(in this PAF budget per year). Do you have any experience in project management to talk regarding contingencies? Tell me(forget the PAF and its much more rigid control coming from the budget of pakistan) - what happened at corporations and their “defined projects from day 0” and contingency plans when Covid hit?

 

[Big_bud]

Project scope also includes budget for the project for each year(in this PAF budget per year). Do you have any experience in project management to talk regarding contingencies? Tell me(forget the PAF and its much more rigid control coming from the budget of pakistan) - what happened at corporations and their “defined projects from day 0” and contingency plans when Covid hit?

Yes I do. Nothing happens, well thought-out projects still go on. If need be, more money is invested. In fact back then Pakistan was getting good money for providing services to USA, so we did have money in Musharaf era.

We should forget PF-X now then because our economy is even worse than 2000s. This must mean that Air chief doesn't know about these things. And yet he is making such claims. He must be naïve or lying then?

Either way, I'd leave it here. I have sent my point across for those who want to consider it. And I hope we aim high and we achieve high!

 

[khanasifm]

Which stealth capabilities does JF17 has? You are making a ridiculous comparison, can JF take a vertical launch?

Which stealth capabilities does JF17 has? You are making a ridiculous comparison, can JF take a vertical launch?

Which stealth capabilities does JF17 has? You are making a ridiculous comparison, can JF take a vertical launch?

I never said we have a bad jet at hand. And the arguments you are providing are not adding to the conversation IMO because I don't disagree with you. I disagree at the time line. We should have gotten a future ready product by now (Good for its role for next 15-20 yrs till we get our 5th gen fighter). We should have and could have used our energies on a truly modern 5th gen aircraft if JFT was complete by now OR a much advanced block after this block 3. But here we are, still at a slippery slope. We took 5 yrs, we are still slightly lacking in my view, have not realised potential of this platform fully. And we have 100 odd block 1s & 2s to upgrade to latest standard too! WTF sort of reactive air force we are running? By the time we have built our "ACE" block 3, block 1s and 2s are already lacking behind in the game. We are actually replacing f7s and mirages with a similarly old tech/ old capability aircraft, no HMD, can't use modern missiles, just like F7s and mirages. i hope you get my point. The time line is disappointing and concerning. We will be still working on JFT till 2030s, upgrading our old B1s & B2s probably building a B4 as well. Then who would work on 5th Gen? And how will we reach all 5th gen air force time line by 2047?

yes you should run the airforce and pac and the country as well

 

[SQ8]

Yes I do. Nothing happens, well thought-out projects still go on. If need be, more money is invested. In fact back then Pakistan was getting good money for providing services to USA, so we did have money in Musharaf era.

We should forget PF-X now then because our economy is even worse than 2000s. This must mean that Air chief doesn't know about these things. And yet he is making such claims. He must be naïve or lying then?

Either way, I'd leave it here. I have sent my point across for those who want to consider it. And I hope we aim high and we achieve high!

Oh - nothing happens!
That tells me exactly how valuable your input is.

let me teach you what happens when you get extraordinary events:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7556229/

Above is an accredited paper that explains what extraordinary events do to projects.
Below is a link to what happened to Pakistan as it seems you have zero idea
https://profit.pakistantoday.com.pk/2018/09/24/how-pakistan-dealt-with-the-2008-financial-crisis/

The government of Pakistan works on a yearly budget system of which all funds are allocated. You can see below as an example of how these are allocated and these are for THAT year ONLY
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/modp-year-book-2017-18.635136/page-11

Now,in 2005 the PAF was planning on 36 F-16C block 52s and 36-48 J-10A(FC-20s) and 150 JF-17s by 2015.
The following extraordinary events caused even the contingency plans to be exceeded(unless you claim by some miracle they could be mitigated)

2005 Earthquake (Do you know the actual cost to the economy?) -Yes, the first world powerhouse with high intellect known as Pakistani government under a non existent NDMA would have planned for it.

2008 - financial crash and standoff
Are you aware of how it affected Pakistan’s artificially propped up economy? How it led to a reduction in budget

2008-2012( PPP government)
Do you know what they did to Pakistan’s economy and institutional situation? They sucked it into a skeleton to the extent that in 2011 PAF did not have money to pay even the interest on the loans provided for JF-17 partial development by the Chinese.

2020- Did you dance and party during Covid or were asleep? Because the entire world reeled with losses to economy, supply chains and even personnel but apparently you think there are “contingency plans”. Wonder what school of project management that is?

The F-35 project which is much better funded than the JF-17 and run by a much much more experienced aircraft manufacturer had to revise it targets https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/l...35s-for-2022-citing-covid-s-impact/ar-AAOSUKb
But no, we have contingency plans and anything contrary to your wisdom is “apologizing”. What did you do? Send any funds to Pakistan? Know how to program embedded c++ inverse fourier transforms ?

Now, since you do seem to be shooting off tangents and are ignorant to what are known as current events along with just how much informed criticism is expressed here by those that know not just how the PAF but the entire R&D culture of Pakistan operates but are adamant on scoring some form of self satisfying legitimacy while stating “Ive sent my point across and leave it here”.
You have no point other than just wanting to criticize for the sake of criticism rather than an informed contribution just so that you can get away without having to admit “I don’t know”.

 

[SQ8]

yes you should run the airforce and pac and the country as well

Quality of input = Knowledge x Practice of knowledge x Talent

The first two variables have to be there to have the highest impact.

 

[Arsalan345]

We can't modify this jet anymore. Block 3 should be final. Start new project. Make Stealth jet. We need more airpower but with better quality. PAF should consider heavy twin engine fighter jet. Project Azm might be too far away. Block 3 should be the final modified version. We don't need lightweight jets upfront. F-16s can't handle 150 Rafales. They are planning to induct 200+ rafales. We should do something on emergency basis. I say put block-3 on hold and start New project.

 

[iLION12345_1]

okay than put weapon carrying capability aside for a moment but what about the newer radar and avionics e.g; maws and aesa radar etc they will require more power so is the current engine sufficient enough to provide enough power to all these things..

Yes, the current engine is more than sufficient to supply power to all these things without affecting flight performance. PAF wouldn’t put the new radar on the aircraft if it didn’t have enough power to run it, besides, while the radar is a rather massive upgrade over the last one, it’s still a relatively small radar given the relatively small aircraft. I don’t think MAWS draws much power anyways.

There are jets with bigger radars and more sensors that can carry more than JF-17 with weaker engines. Again, I don’t know how this notion started that the JF-17 is underpowered, it’s really not true.

We can't modify this jet anymore. Block 3 should be final. Start new project. Make Stealth jet. We need more airpower but with better quality. PAF should consider heavy twin engine fighter jet. Project Azm might be too far away. Block 3 should be the final modified version. We don't need lightweight jets upfront. F-16s can't handle 150 Rafales. They are planning to induct 200+ rafales. We should do something on emergency basis. I say put block-3 on hold and start New project.

A new project requires money and time we do not have, Block 3 and a further block 4 are still the best way forward, J-10C can be inducted as a stop gap. What remains to be seen is how Pakistan handles its 5th Gen project, it’s already too late to join the J-31/J-35 project and Azm is more of an experiment, I hope they figure something out In regards to the TFX or J-35 soon.

 

[Big_bud]

Oh - nothing happens!
That tells me exactly how valuable your input is.

let me teach you what happens when you get extraordinary events:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7556229/

Above is an accredited paper that explains what extraordinary events do to projects.
Below is a link to what happened to Pakistan as it seems you have zero idea
https://profit.pakistantoday.com.pk/2018/09/24/how-pakistan-dealt-with-the-2008-financial-crisis/

The government of Pakistan works on a yearly budget system of which all funds are allocated. You can see below as an example of how these are allocated and these are for THAT year ONLY
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/modp-year-book-2017-18.635136/page-11

Now,in 2005 the PAF was planning on 36 F-16C block 52s and 36-48 J-10A(FC-20s) and 150 JF-17s by 2015.
The following extraordinary events caused even the contingency plans to be exceeded(unless you claim by some miracle they could be mitigated)

2005 Earthquake (Do you know the actual cost to the economy?) -Yes, the first world powerhouse with high intellect known as Pakistani government under a non existent NDMA would have planned for it.

2008 - financial crash and standoff
Are you aware of how it affected Pakistan’s artificially propped up economy? How it led to a reduction in budget

2008-2012( PPP government)
Do you know what they did to Pakistan’s economy and institutional situation? They sucked it into a skeleton to the extent that in 2011 PAF did not have money to pay even the interest on the loans provided for JF-17 partial development by the Chinese.

2020- Did you dance and party during Covid or were asleep? Because the entire world reeled with losses to economy, supply chains and even personnel but apparently you think there are “contingency plans”. Wonder what school of project management that is?

The F-35 project which is much better funded than the JF-17 and run by a much much more experienced aircraft manufacturer had to revise it targets https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/l...35s-for-2022-citing-covid-s-impact/ar-AAOSUKb
But no, we have contingency plans and anything contrary to your wisdom is “apologizing”. What did you do? Send any funds to Pakistan? Know how to program embedded c++ inverse fourier transforms ?

Now, since you do seem to be shooting off tangents and are ignorant to what are known as current events along with just how much informed criticism is expressed here by those that know not just how the PAF but the entire R&D culture of Pakistan operates but are adamant on scoring some form of self satisfying legitimacy while stating “Ive sent my point across and leave it here”.
You have no point other than just wanting to criticize for the sake of criticism rather than an informed contribution just so that you can get away without having to admit “I don’t know”.

Good! I hope the same mentality does not exist in PAF leadership. We will carry F7, Mirages and JFs well into 2200 then! Paint safar ki dua on it for barkat! Bismillah Phuu before firing a missile just to add extra accuracy! Yes, I lived through those times and I maintain, JFT is a slow project as we speak. It could have been better after 2 decade + of work on it! If you google which companies were built into billion dollar empires all throughout those 2 decades you will find many. What about their project management? How did they manage steep success during challenging times? But don't take it personal yeah? Keep it cool, try to relax.

 

[princefaisal]

Instead of going for a new project, I think that the best option is to get the TOT of J-10s and produce them in large numbers.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Hoping Block 3, first batch will be inducted in 3 months time frame.
But not sure when J10 C will be revealed in PAF colors as there is no words from officials yet.

 

[GumNaam]

Hoping Block 3, first batch will be inducted in 3 months time frame.
But not sure when J10 C will be revealed in PAF colors as there is no words from officials yet.

as far as I know, J10Cs will be arriving end of next year.

 

[araz]

I forgot completely where Pakistan had the booming economy from 2008 to 2020 that would have easily enabled this excellent progress you talk about.

YEEEEEES ! I distinctly remember money growing on trees during that period. Zardari and Waja Not so Shareef were cultivating bumper crops of it.
A