It’s a shame Pakistan is hoodwinking India

[Iggy]

First of all address in a proper manner, Calling some one dude/shude isn't a respectable way to address.


Secondly the source you are providing is an Indian one.


Lastly, would care to trace back the reason For existence of such terrorists which you call. Find it out first then we can have a hearty discussion on Figures like him.



Adios

Simple question Adios..what is people like Hafiz Muhammad Saeed has to do with Kashmir..he is not a Kashmiri..Kashmir's independece has nothing to do with him..If you notice most of the terrorist organisations in Kashmir is founded by Pakistanis..

Hafiz Muhammad Saeed - Lashkar-e-Taiba ,Jama'at-ud-Da'wah,

Maulana Masood Azhar -Jaish-e-Mohammed

Name of any of the organisation started by a Kashmiri who is fighting for freedom in Kashmir??

 

[Adios Amigo]

I am afraid there is no freedom of speach on this international fourm.

There is ample freedom of speech on this forum, much more then any others. I am a member of many and I know that for a fact. And I believe not many share this idea of yours. If it was so, people wouldn't have been here from around the globe. No need for me to give you their nationality details, you can judge that yourself.

if you want to prove someone wrong provide proofs, you just cant ban a person because you have a difference of opinion with him.

Correct no buddy can be banned just for difference of opinion. And that has been the norm here. But yes for accusing and breaking the rules even after warnings you don't need a ban, but deserve one.

Timi prove Kumar wrong.... can you?????

Taimi isn't God to prove some buddy's baseless allegations wrong. No one, Not even the Super Power dare to call us terrorists. How come Mr. Kumar do it on regular bases???

Tell If some one comes out with a baseless allegations about, Lets suppose some female member of your family, how would you prove him wrong??? or if some one say Indians are whores can you prove him wrong??? Things which are beyond facts and human tolerance, need not to be proved wrong. They simply aren't worthy of that.


( Sorry the examples are very harsh, but none the less it could not be explained.)










Adios

 

[Adios Amigo]

Simple question Adios..what is people like Hafiz Muhammad Saeed has to do with Kashmir..he is not a Kashmiri..Kashmir's independece has nothing to do with him..If you notice most of the terrorist organisations in Kashmir is founded by Pakistanis..

Hafiz Muhammad Saeed - Lashkar-e-Taiba ,Jama'at-ud-Da'wah,

Maulana Masood Azhar -Jaish-e-Mohammed

Name of any of the organisation started by a Kashmiri who is fighting for freedom in Kashmir??

Hi,

Correct, just for the sake of argument i would say no connection.

But what is the connection of similar people in India, lecturing hate and calling Kashmir their own???

Defining the out come with out finding the cause of out come wont help.

Before we try to find the connection of people like Hafiz Saeed, don't you think its necessary to find out the core reason which gave birth to the emergence of Hafiz Saeed and many others like him???

The fact is that, Kashmir is the core Issue and the bone of contention between both the countries. Both claim their stance correct which therefore gives birth to people like you mentioned. If it was not so then none from both sides would have appeared. Unless its resolved with sincerity we will continue to see faces like these coming on the big picture.

A question arises what is the connection of an ordinary person, a common man like me and you sitting Calcutta or in Mumbai or In Karachi??? What effect is it having on his daily life, his routine activities ???

A simple answer in my opinion is a Big Negative.

We all want to speak for Kashmir, but wont let Kashmirs speak for them selves.

Kashmir is a disputed territory from the day 1. And it has squeezed and crippled the billions of poor masses across the border. Its has been the only cause of wars between us, honestly what else do we have to fight on. Its not just the two of us But the whole South Asian region is suffering because of it.


Lets be Honest and Lets be Courageous. Lets get rid of this mess once and for all.

Lets give the Kashmirs their Rightful Right of Self Determination. Let them chose if they want to be a part of Pakistan, India or even if they want to stay Independent.

And let us respect their decision.


If it ever happens, I assure you not a single man Like Hafiz Saeed or some one similar will arise again. There wont be any reason left for people like them to ask what they are doing now.

And more importantly Trust will develop between the two countries which only can lead us to the highway of progress and prosperity.







Adios

 

[ice_man]

Simple question Adios..what is people like Hafiz Muhammad Saeed has to do with Kashmir..he is not a Kashmiri..Kashmir's independece has nothing to do with him..If you notice most of the terrorist organisations in Kashmir is founded by Pakistanis..

Hafiz Muhammad Saeed - Lashkar-e-Taiba ,Jama'at-ud-Da'wah,

Maulana Masood Azhar -Jaish-e-Mohammed

Name of any of the organisation started by a Kashmiri who is fighting for freedom in Kashmir??

this video is a lie?

its like saying palestanian freedom movement is a farce and is done by muslim nations to weaken the israeli rule!

 

[Iggy]

Hi,

Correct, just for the sake of argument i would say no connection.

But what is the connection of similar people in India, lecturing hate and calling Kashmir their own???

Defining the out come with out finding the cause of out come wont help.

Before we try to find the connection of people like Hafiz Saeed, don't you think its necessary to find out the core reason which gave birth to the emergence of Hafiz Saeed and many others like him???

The fact is that, Kashmir is the core Issue and the bone of contention between both the countries. Both claim their stance correct which therefore gives birth to people like you mentioned. If it was not so then none from both sides would have appeared. Unless its resolved with sincerity we will continue to see faces like these coming on the big picture.

A question arises what is the connection of an ordinary person, a common man like me and you sitting Calcutta or in Mumbai or In Karachi??? What effect is it having on his daily life, his routine activities ???

A simple answer in my opinion is a Big Negative.

We all want to speak for Kashmir, but wont let Kashmirs speak for them selves.

Kashmir is a disputed territory from the day 1. And it has squeezed and crippled the billions of poor masses across the border. Its has been the only cause of wars between us, honestly what else do we have to fight on. Its not just the two of us But the whole South Asian region is suffering because of it.


Lets be Honest and Lets be Courageous. Lets get rid of this mess once and for all.

Lets give the Kashmirs their Rightful Right of Self Determination. Let them chose if they want to be a part of Pakistan, India or even if they want to stay Independent.

And let us respect their decision.


If it ever happens, I assure you not a single man Like Hafiz Saeed or some one similar will arise again. There wont be any reason left for people like them to ask what they are doing now.

And more importantly Trust will develop between the two countries which only can lead us to the highway of progress and prosperity.







Adios

Mate agree with Kashmir is the core issue from the day oneand as i read in some of the Agno's post in the forum..Kashimiris has two choice..either be part of India or part of Pakistan..it was your countrys wish too..Only after realising that Kashmiris wont support an armed take over of Kashmir your country turned in to freedom of Kashmir..sadly most of the guys brainwashed and send over by those organisations are fighting for the freedom which they wont get anyway..Adios you keep forgetting that any organisation inside my country do not sending any person to carry out terrorist attack on P-O-K..

And yes mutual trust should be devaloped between our countries..but how can we trust you when Pakistani citizens comes in to our shores and kill our people?.. we are also humans and we have emotions..when people die in our country and those who are responsible are protected on the name of technicality how can we grow trust mate?

And for Kashmiris self ditermination..the time has long gone mate..
as per Indian law no outside state citizen can buy land in Kashmir but lots of Pakistani people migrated to Kashmir occupied by your country..lots of Kashmiri pundits were fled due to the atrocities of Terrorists.. do you think the election will be fare??Why cant we just keep the part of Kashmir we have and declate LOC as International border ??...

 

[Iggy]

YouTube - DIVIDE INDIA (100 PERCENT TRUE SHOWING WITH WESTERN EYES).SHOULDONE DAY KASHMIR AND KHALISTAN WILL GET FREEDOM . HELP FOR KASHMIR AND KHALISTAN

this video is a lie?

its like saying palestanian freedom movement is a farce and is done by muslim nations to weaken the israeli rule!

What it has to do with my question??

 

[Adios Amigo]

Same old story Sir,


I don't know wither I have failed to explain it rightly, or you just don't wanna get it??

Mate agree with Kashmir is the core issue from the day oneand as i read in some of the Agno's post in the forum..Kashimiris has two choice..either be part of India or part of Pakistan.

Correct, AM is talking from a practical perspective, theoretically Kashmirs have three choices as I explained earlier. But Practically only what AM is talking about is viable.

it was your countrys wish too..Only after realising that Kashmiris wont support an armed take over of Kashmir your country turned in to freedom of Kashmir..sadly most of the guys brainwashed and send over by those organisations are fighting for the freedom which they wont get anyway..

This is the actual problem I am talking about. You guys think Kashmir is an issue, imposed on you from outside. If that is crushed, every thing will settle down. The reality however is totally opposite to that, Kashmiri Struggle is both from inside and outside. If there wasn't an Inside struggle the outside struggle would have dried long ago. But nay, its alive and kicking and you know it well, therefore I need not to provide links of whats happening inside Kashmir.

Call them Brain washed, call them terrorists, call them Freedom Fighters, wherever , they feel legit and enjoys an overwhelming support within IoK. And saying they wont get their freedom only hardens their stance and their feelings for their right, and also helps to produce more and more like them.

The whole world recognizes this issue and that's why you hear every now and then a Statement about Kashmir Resolution from the World leaders. If it was as the way you project it, the world would have never spoken about.

And remember, no nation wins its freedom without sacrificing and shedding its own blood. It was the case For Pakistan and India, It was the case for Ireland, It was the case for Bangladesh etc, etc. Same is true for Kashmir and Kashmiris . You may call them and their supporters as terrorists now but remember, they are and will be perceived as Freedom fighters and heroes, And the world will take there stance correct in the end. What we called traitors in East Pakistan, became Heroes in Bangladesh, and the world take their stance correct.

Adios you keep forgetting that any organisation inside my country do not sending any person to carry out terrorist attack on P-O-K..

Now my friend, That would have been the case if and I repeat If, your countrymen felt that they have been deprived of their due rights.

It would have been the case if, The people of Azad Kashmir stood against the Government of Pakistan, in favor of India as they do in Indian Occupied Kashmir.

It would have been the case If any of our countries organization, enjoyed any amount of support amongst the people of Azad Kashmir.

And lastly to cut it short, that would have been the case if you really felt your stance right, and instead of sending 700,000+ armed force in the I-O-K, you believed in the people of that region and felt their voice as your own voice. But alas! my friend that's not the case painting it otherwise doesn't help either, as it lacks solid grounds.

And yes mutual trust should be devaloped between our countries..but how can we trust you when Pakistani citizens comes in to our shores and kill our people?.. we are also humans and we have emotions..when people die in our country and those who are responsible are protected on the name of technicality how can we grow trust mate?

This is exactly the repetition of your earlier post. Innocent Citizens dying and paying for someones else fault is not something to cherish upon. Indeed its regretful. However you are looking at the fallout but not the reason and cause of the fallout. When people are deprived of their legit rights, frustrations overtakes every thing and start believing to take it up till the end. Those who have died in Mumbai has unfortunately paid for what is happening in IOK. And it is the only reason nothing else. Tell me something Those who attacked also got killed, they knew it, It was a suicidal mission for them, What could have motivated them to do so???

If the Cause is eradicated, the fallout will flush out by itself.

And for Kashmiris self ditermination..the time has long gone mate..
as per Indian law no outside state citizen can buy land in Kashmir but lots of Pakistani people migrated to Kashmir occupied by your country..lots of Kashmiri pundits were fled due to the atrocities of Terrorists.. do you think the election will be fare??Why cant we just keep the part of Kashmir we have and declate LOC as International border ??...

This would be hiding from facts and not facing the reality. Which wont help either.
Kashmiris Right of Self determination hasn't moved an inch. It is the only right and logical way of solution.

If you Belief your stance correct, then why are you so afraid, let it happen in light of UN resolutions. And If Kashmiris decides to join India, we will be more then happy. At least it will show both of the reality, so have courage and do it.

If these kind of solutions pop out as you say, then I guarantee, nothings gonna change and no buddy is moving towards betterment, not even an Inch.

Rather expect another war,between us sooner or later, which would lead to the destruction of both of us just because of our stubbornness and foolishness.

Hope sense prevail sooner then later.









Adios

 

[Iggy]

Same old story Sir,


I don't know wither I have failed to explain it rightly, or you just don't wanna get it??






Correct, AM is talking from a practical perspective, theoretically Kashmirs have three choices as I explained earlier. But Practically only what AM is talking about is viable.




This is the actual problem I am talking about. You guys think Kashmir is an issue, imposed on you from outside. If that is crushed, every thing will settle down. The reality however is totally opposite to that, Kashmiri Struggle is both from inside and outside. If there wasn't an Inside struggle the outside struggle would have dried long ago. But nay, its alive and kicking and you know it well, therefore I need not to provide links of whats happening inside Kashmir.

Call them Brain washed, call them terrorists, call them Freedom Fighters, wherever , they feel legit and enjoys an overwhelming support within IoK. And saying they wont get their freedom only hardens their stance and their feelings for their right, and also helps to produce more and more like them.

The whole world recognizes this issue and that's why you hear every now and then a Statement about Kashmir Resolution from the World leaders. If it was as the way you project it, the world would have never spoken about.

And remember, no nation wins its freedom without sacrificing and shedding its own blood. It was the case For Pakistan and India, It was the case for Ireland, It was the case for Bangladesh etc, etc. Same is true for Kashmir and Kashmiris . You may call them and their supporters as terrorists now but remember, they are and will be perceived as Freedom fighters and heroes, And the world will take there stance correct in the end. What we called traitors in East Pakistan, became Heroes in Bangladesh, and the world take their stance correct.





Now my friend, That would have been the case if and I repeat If, your countrymen felt that they have been deprived of their due rights.

It would have been the case if, The people of Azad Kashmir stood against the Government of Pakistan, in favor of India as they do in Indian Occupied Kashmir.

It would have been the case If any of our countries organization, enjoyed any amount of support amongst the people of Azad Kashmir.

And lastly to cut it short, that would have been the case if you really felt your stance right, and instead of sending 700,000+ armed force in the I-O-K, you believed in the people of that region and felt their voice as your own voice. But alas! my friend that's not the case painting it otherwise doesn't help either, as it lacks solid grounds.






This is exactly the repetition of your earlier post. Innocent Citizens dying and paying for someones else fault is not something to cherish upon. Indeed its regretful. However you are looking at the fallout but not the reason and cause of the fallout. When people are deprived of their legit rights, frustrations overtakes every thing and start believing to take it up till the end. Those who have died in Mumbai has unfortunately paid for what is happening in IOK. And it is the only reason nothing else. Tell me something Those who attacked also got killed, they knew it, It was a suicidal mission for them, What could have motivated them to do so???

If the Cause is eradicated, the fallout will flush out by itself.





This would be hiding from facts and not facing the reality. Which wont help either.
Kashmiris Right of Self determination hasn't moved an inch. It is the only right and logical way of solution.

If you Belief your stance correct, then why are you so afraid, let it happen in light of UN resolutions. And If Kashmiris decides to join India, we will be more then happy. At least it will show both of the reality, so have courage and do it.

If these kind of solutions pop out as you say, then I guarantee, nothings gonna change and no buddy is moving towards betterment, not even an Inch.

Rather expect another war,between us sooner or later, which would lead to the destruction of both of us just because of our stubbornness and foolishness.

Hope sense prevail sooner then later.









Adios

Adios i agree with some of your posts but lets just talk about the practical version that Kashmiris have only two choices.either be with India or with Pakistan..because your country also wanted Kashmir like my country do..Pakistan always treated Kashmir in such way ..ceding of parts of Kashmir to China and annexation of gilgit are just examples that Pakistan also wanted Kashmir and independent Kashmir is not Pakistan choice too..lets be frank mate..we both dont care about what Kashmirs think..we both wanted the state..its become an ego issue for us and Kashmiries are just tools playing to the tunes of some body and every body...not so long ago seperestist Lone said that seprestists were paid by Pakistanis..it clearly shows your intention is same as ours ..

I said them brainwashed becasue they were fighting for a myth called independent Kashmir which is created by the those who are behind those terrorist organisations inorder to get more support..The Indpendence of Kashmir is just an eyewash by the Pakistan and some organisations inside Pakistan to create more sympathies...and as for persons like Saeed kashmir is not the issue India is his issue..today Kashmir tomorrow he will find some other reasons to kill my countrymen..these guys had to go at any cost..

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

same ole same ole just why can't ppl just resolve it by voting and get it behind us its just ... becoming annoying over and over again same ... protest same shutter down same misery ...same deadlock

 

[Adios Amigo]

Adios i agree with some of your posts but lets just talk about the practical version that Kashmiris have only two choices.either be with India or with Pakistan..because your country also wanted Kashmir like my country do..Pakistan always treated Kashmir in such way ..ceding of parts of Kashmir to China and annexation of gilgit are just examples that Pakistan also wanted Kashmir and independent Kashmir is not Pakistan choice too..lets be frank mate..we both dont care about what Kashmirs think..we both wanted the state..its become an ego issue for us and Kashmiries are just tools playing to the tunes of some body and every body...not so long ago seperestist Lone said that seprestists were paid by Pakistanis..it clearly shows your intention is same as ours ..

I said them brainwashed becasue they were fighting for a myth called independent Kashmir which is created by the those who are behind those terrorist organisations inorder to get more support..The Indpendence of Kashmir is just an eyewash by the Pakistan and some organisations inside Pakistan to create more sympathies...and as for persons like Saeed kashmir is not the issue India is his issue..today Kashmir tomorrow he will find some other reasons to kill my countrymen..these guys had to go at any cost..

Seiko,


I can probably give a more detailed answer, but that I believe would be just revolving in circles, and thus wont lead us to a point of mutual agreement. I have made my point loud and clear, and so did you. So I would refrain and end it here.









Adios

 

[karan.1970]

Lets give the Kashmirs their Rightful Right of Self Determination. Let them chose if they want to be a part of Pakistan, India or even if they want to stay Independent.

And let us respect their decision.

Both you and I know that this will never happen.. Too much nationalistic and political capital invested on both sides. Neither India nor Pakistan(yes even Pakistan) will allow any loss of territory unless snatched in war. Support for Kashmir is simply a plank

If it ever happens, I assure you not a single man Like Hafiz Saeed or some one similar will arise again. There wont be any reason left for people like them to ask what they are doing now.

And more importantly Trust will develop between the two countries which only can lead us to the highway of progress and prosperity.


Adios

Excuse my pessimism on this, but I dont think this will hold. The problem is the Indo Pak animosity and not Kashmir.. Kashmir is the means and not the end. If that gets solved (even though chances are bleak) something else will pop up.. Saeed Hafiz has already made statements to that effect. and I dont trust the politicians on either side.

btw, I will be most happy if I get proved wrong....

 

[Adios Amigo]

Karan I did not want to come back to this debate, but you have dragged me again

Both you and I know that this will never happen.. Too much nationalistic and political capital invested on both sides. Neither India nor Pakistan(yes even Pakistan) will allow any loss of territory unless snatched in war. Support for Kashmir is simply a plank

This part of your post is correct, and I agree with it. And as I said earlier (that because of our foolishness and stubbornness), we both are paying for it, and will continue to do so.

Excuse my pessimism on this, but I dont think this will hold. The problem is the Indo Pak animosity and not Kashmir.. Kashmir is the means and not the end. If that gets solved (even though chances are bleak) something else will pop up.. Saeed Hafiz has already made statements to that effect. and I dont trust the politicians on either side.

btw, I will be most happy if I get proved wrong....

I don't agree to the highlighted part.

The reason for Indo-Pak animosity???

No reason but Kashmir.

Even if consider those, insignificant and invisible disputes, they don't add up to form bases for Indo-Pak animosity.

If you remember the root cause of all the wars we fought lies in Kashmir, nothing else. Erase this and then find me a suitable cause for Indo-Pak animosity.

The reason that those small and i would say again Insignificant issues don't get solved is because of the extreme "Trust Deficit". and this trust deficit is the direct out come of Kashmir.

If this Core Issue is resolved trust will develop and no reason for Animosity will pertain.

And talking of people like Saeed, they will vanish by their own, the reason for that is, people like him enjoy public support, for legit cause. But once the cause is achieved, they wont have a legit reason to give a call for what they are doing now. And if they do they will not only lose the public support, but also ask for their wrath. This exactly what happened to Pakistani Talibans.







Adios

 

[karan.1970]

I don't agree to the highlighted part.

The reason for Indo-Pak animosity???

No reason but Kashmir.

Even if consider those, insignificant and invisible disputes, they don't add up to form bases for Indo-Pak animosity.

If you remember the root cause of all the wars we fought lies in Kashmir, nothing else. Erase this and then find me a suitable cause for Indo-Pak animosity.

The reason that those small and i would say again Insignificant issues don't get solved is because of the extreme "Trust Deficit". and this trust deficit is the direct out come of Kashmir.

If this Core Issue is resolved trust will develop and no reason for Animosity will pertain.

And talking of people like Saeed, they will vanish by their own, the reason for that is, people like him enjoy public support, for legit cause. But once the cause is achieved, they wont have a legit reason to give a call for what they are doing now. And if they do they will not only lose the public support, but also ask for their wrath. This exactly what happened to Pakistani Talibans.







Adios

I wish i could agree to that. And may be 50 years back this would have worked. The problem is that so much has been argued about this, that anything except status quo in terms of boundaries will result in one of the 2 countries looking like having lost out. That will do anything but reduce animosity between the 2 countries and hence the hate groups (whether in India or Pakistan) will continue to have currency.

 

[sensenreason]

First of all address in a proper manner, Calling some one dude/shude isn't a respectable way to address.

Secondly the source you are providing is an Indian one.

Lastly, would care to trace back the reason For existence of such terrorists which you call. Find it out first then we can have a hearty discussion on Figures like him.



Adios

equiliz3r - Please address him as 'Boss' and use Pakistani/Chinese sources as reference.

 

[Adios Amigo]

equiliz3r - Please address him as 'Boss' and use Pakistani/Chinese sources as reference.

So much for your sense and reason.












Adios