Israeli F-16 fighter jet shot down amid Syrian anti-air fire, pilots safe - IDF

[gambit]

I totally agree with you but here remains a question of prerecorded data. for example the new radars have data bases that have recorded data on aircraft. like there are F-35 flying in Japan and Chinese Radars are recording their RADAR data once a data base has been established the data then can be used to get a better lock with RADAR validating data with it's previous records and thus getting a lock on a stealth fighter. With previous data the algorithm can have a better chance of keeping the lock.

Now you treads into my area of experience...A long time ago...In a galaxy far, far away...

If you look at a model (of anything), the first determination is if the target is symmetrical or not. A sphere is symmetrical. In fact, the sphere is THE model for radar calibration.

http://www.centurymetalspinning.com/radar-calibration-spheres/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Calibration_Sphere_1

The more simple your model, the less the need for you to view the model from different angles.

When your model is complex like a human being or a car or an aircraft, the minimum quantity of angles is six. The typical front/rear/top/bottom/left/right views. With the human brain, our cognitive capability enables us to recognize targets with less than six, more like four, and with the human face, just one. If the human face turns a few degrees off, we can still call that face 'Joe' or 'Jane'.

The radar's needs are much greater. The ideal situation is to put the target into a controlled environment like a radar anechoic chamber, like this one...The best in the world...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefield_Anechoic_Facility

Then run the radar all over the target. The views you have will be far more than six. The amount of data will be enormous.

But if this ideal situation is not possible, then you resort to the next best thing: morphing algorithm.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4208213/
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2002SPIE.4792...78T

Automated target morphing applied to objects in cluttered backgrounds

Basically, the math uses baseline target data, the minimum six angles views, then 'guess' what the target may look like if the view is changed slightly, such as 45 or 44.5 or 87.333 deg off. The variations are practically infinite. Your operating freq is highly affecting to the accuracy of these guesses. The higher the operating freq, the better the ability of the morphing algorithm to accurately guess what the target may look like at 29.593 deg, for example. Granularity -- is the word.

So has anyone managed to get the F-117, F-22, F-35, and the B-2 under controlled environments ? Only US done it.

The tactical implications are staggering for our adversaries. Without revealing anything 'classified', I have said it many times on this forum that the US have effectively defeated 'stealth'.

If you look at the current crop of 'stealth' attempts from Russia and China, you will see very similar planforms and shaping techniques to American 'stealth' aircrafts. That means their 'stealth' platforms will exhibit similar radar characteristics to ours, and we have the most detailed radar views of all.

Whatever radar data the Chinese claimed to have based upon claimed detection of the F-22, assume the benefit of being real for now, those data are junk. And I say that kindly. Simply put, the data did not came from controlled experiments, so whatever morphing algorithm they have, the old programming adage applies: GIGO -- Garbage In, Garbage Out.

That does not mean the Chinese cannot use their own 'stealth' fighters to use as baseline models to try to guess what the F-22 and F-35 may look like. But the US have been flying and testing our 'stealth' platforms for DECADES. The Russians? Forget them. By the time the Chinese are ready, the J-20 and others are DOA: Dead On Arrival.

We will -- not merely can -- weed the J-20 out of clutter and put an AIM-12X up its @$$.

 

[BHarwana]

Now you treads into my area of experience...A long time ago...In a galaxy far, far away...

If you look at a model (of anything), the first determination is if the target is symmetrical or not. A sphere is symmetrical. In fact, the sphere is THE model for radar calibration.

http://www.centurymetalspinning.com/radar-calibration-spheres/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Calibration_Sphere_1

The more simple your model, the less the need for you to view the model from different angles.

When your model is complex like a human being or a car or an aircraft, the minimum quantity of angles is six. The typical front/rear/top/bottom/left/right views. With the human brain, our cognitive capability enables us to recognize targets with less than six, more like four, and with the human face, just one. If the human face turns a few degrees off, we can still call that face 'Joe' or 'Jane'.

The radar's needs are much greater. The ideal situation is to put the target into a controlled environment like a radar anechoic chamber, like this one...The best in the world...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefield_Anechoic_Facility

Then run the radar all over the target. The views you have will be far more than six. The amount of data will be enormous.

But if this ideal situation is not possible, then you resort to the next best thing: morphing algorithm.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4208213/
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2002SPIE.4792...78T


Basically, the math uses baseline target data, the minimum six angles views, then 'guess' what the target may look like if the view is changed slightly, such as 45 or 44.5 or 87.333 deg off. The variations are practically infinite. Your operating freq is highly affecting to the accuracy of these guesses. The higher the operating freq, the better the ability of the morphing algorithm to accurately guess what the target may look like at 29.593 deg, for example. Granularity -- is the word.

So has anyone managed to get the F-117, F-22, F-35, and the B-2 under controlled environments ? Only US done it.

The tactical implications are staggering for our adversaries. Without revealing anything 'classified', I have said it many times on this forum that the US have effectively defeated 'stealth'.

If you look at the current crop of 'stealth' attempts from Russia and China, you will see very similar planforms and shaping techniques to American 'stealth' aircrafts. That means their 'stealth' platforms will exhibit similar radar characteristics to ours, and we have the most detailed radar views of all.

Whatever radar data the Chinese claimed to have based upon claimed detection of the F-22, assume the benefit of being real for now, those data are junk. And I say that kindly. Simply put, the data did not came from controlled experiments, so whatever morphing algorithm they have, the old programming adage applies: GIGO -- Garbage In, Garbage Out.

That does not mean the Chinese cannot use their own 'stealth' fighters to use as baseline models to try to guess what the F-22 and F-35 may look like. But the US have been flying and testing our 'stealth' platforms for DECADES. The Russians? Forget them. By the time the Chinese are ready, the J-20 and others are DOA: Dead On Arrival.

We will -- not merely can -- weed the J-20 out of clutter and put an AIM-12X up its @$$.

Rostec CEO Allows for Possibility of Selling S-400 Air Defense Systems to US

https://sputniknews.com/russia/201802111061549211-russia-rostec-allows-usa-sale/

 

[gambit]

We are talking about stealth in general terms not particularly the US stealth..All I am saying is that when A has a doubt about a cluster it has detected.. it can eventually verify and confirm what it is.. through B, C or D.. or a combination.. So if there is a stealth fighter approaching its Area, it can be detected if A proceeds to share the coordinates of what ever doubtful cluster it has seen with B,C and D systems that have other means of detection..

You did not understand what I said.

A - B - C - D ---- Z...Is a chain inside the radar computer. Z is when the radar computer says: 'Aha...!!! There is a target.'

It does not matter if the target is a 747 or an F-22. The processing chain is the same. So if the radar computer is struggling with A, it is pointless to speculate what happens with the later processes. It makes one feels temporarily good, but that is all.

 

[BHarwana]

@gambit lol is this enough reply?

 

[mahatir]

With the End of ISIS... Syria has started his countdown...to blow at the face of everyone...
They are thinking that the Evil is gone... little did they know... that they were made from the same flesh...

Any Arab country that allows Iran, Qatar and Turkey to exert influence in it will be leading itself to destruction. Mubarak warned Assad 20 years ago about allowing these countries in Syria and now he is paying the price.

Shia and Sunni islamists should be eliminated at any costs because they are the tools used by Iran and Turkey to spread chaos in Arab countries.

Israel Airforce attacked iranian bases in southern Aleppo .

https://twitter.com/x/status/962443275616604160

 

[BHarwana]

Hillary Clinton leaked email


From: To: Date: 2001-01-01 03:00 Subject: NEW IRAN AND SYRIA 2.DOC
UNCLASSIFIED U.S. Department of State Case No. F-2014-20439 Doc No. C05794498 Date: 11/30/2015 RELEASE IN FULL The best way to help Israel deal with Iran's growing nuclear capability is to help the people of Syria overthrow the regime of Bashar Assad. Negotiations to limit Iran's nuclear program will not solve Israel's security dilemma. Nor will they stop Iran from improving the crucial part of any nuclear weapons program — the capability to enrich uranium. At best, the talks between the world's major powers and Iran that began in Istanbul this April and will continue in Baghdad in May will enable Israel to postpone by a few months a decision whether to launch an attack on Iran that could provoke a major Mideast war. Iran's nuclear program and Syria's civil war may seem unconnected, but they are. For Israeli leaders, the real threat from a nuclear-armed Iran is not the prospect of an insane Iranian leader launching an unprovoked Iranian nuclear attack on Israel that would lead to the annihilation of both countries. What Israeli military leaders really worry about -- but cannot talk about -- is losing their nuclear monopoly. An Iranian nuclear weapons capability would not only end that nuclear monopoly but could also prompt other adversaries, like Saudi Arabia and Egypt, to go nuclear as well. The result would be a precarious nuclear balance in which Israel could not respond to provocations with conventional military strikes on Syria and Lebanon, as it can today. If Iran were to reach the threshold of a nuclear weapons state, Tehran would find it much easier to call on its allies in Syria and Hezbollah to strike Israel, knowing that its nuclear weapons would serve as a deterrent to Israel responding against Iran itself. Back to Syria. It is the strategic relationship between Iran and the regime of Bashar Assad in Syria that makes it possible for Iran to undermine Israel's security — not through a direct attack, which in the thirty years of hostility between Iran and Israel has never occurred, but through its proxies in Lebanon, like Hezbollah, that are sustained, armed and trained by Iran via Syria. The end of the Assad regime would end this dangerous alliance. Israel's leadership understands well why defeating Assad is now in its interests. Speaking on CNN's Amanpour show last week, Defense Minister Ehud Barak argued that "the toppling down of Assad will be a major blow to the radical axis, major blow to Iran.... It's the only kind of outpost of the Iranian influence in the Arab world...and it will weaken dramatically both Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza." Bringing down Assad would not only be a massive boon to Israel's security, it would also ease Israel's understandable fear of losing its nuclear monopoly. Then, Israel and the United States might be able to develop a common view of when the Iranian program is so dangerous that military action could be warranted. Right now, it is the combination of Iran's strategic alliance with Syria and the steady progress in Iran's nuclear enrichment program that has led Israeli leaders to contemplate a surprise attack — if necessary over the objections of Washington. With Assad gone, and Iran no longer able to threaten Israel through its, proxies, it is possible that the United States and Israel can agree on red lines for when Iran's program has crossed an unacceptable threshold. In short, the White House can ease the tension that has developed with Israel over Iran by doing the right thing in Syria. The rebellion in Syria has now lasted more than a year. The opposition is not going away, nor is the regime going to accept a diplomatic solution from the outside. With his life and his family at risk, only the threat or use of force will change the Syrian dictator Bashar Assad's mind. UNCLASSIFIED U.S. Department of State Case No. F-2014-20439 Doc No. C05794498 Date: 11/30/2015 The Obama administration has been understandably wary of engaging in an air operation in Syria like the one conducted in Libya for three main reasons. Unlike the Libyan opposition forces, the Syrian rebels are not unified and do not hold territory. The Arab League has not called for outside military intervention as it did in Libya. And the Russians are opposed. Libya was an easier case. But other than the laudable purpose of saving Libyan civilians from likely attacks by Qaddafi's regime, the Libyan operation had no long-lasting consequences for the region. Syria is harder. But success in Syria would be a transformative event for the Middle East. Not only would another ruthless dictator succumb to mass opposition on the streets, but the region would be changed for the better as Iran would no longer have a foothold in the Middle East from which to threaten Israel and undermine stability in the region. Unlike in Libya, a successful intervention in Syria would require substantial diplomatic and military leadership from the United States. Washington should start by expressing its willingness to work with regional allies like Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar to organize, train and arm Syrian rebel forces. The announcement of such a decision would, by itself, likely cause substantial defections from the Syrian military. Then, using territory in Turkey and possibly Jordan, U.S. diplomats and Pentagon officials can start strengthening the opposition. It will take time. But the rebellion is going to go on for a long time, with or without U.S. involvement. The second step is to develop international support for a coalition air operation. Russia will never support such a mission, so there is no point operating through the UN Security Council. Some argue that U.S. involvement risks a wider war with Russia. But the Kosovo example shows otherwise. In that case, Russia had genuine ethnic and political ties to the Serbs, which don't exist between Russia and Syria, and even then Russia did little more than complain. Russian officials have already acknowledged they won't stand in the way if intervention comes. Arming the Syrian rebels and using western air power to ground Syrian helicopters and airplanes is a low-cost high payoff approach. As long as Washington's political leaders stay firm that no U.S. ground troops will be deployed, as they did in both Kosovo and Libya, the costs to the United States will be limited. Victory may not come quickly or easily, but it will come. And the payoff will be substantial. Iran would be strategically isolated, unable to exert its influence in the Middle East. The resulting regime in Syria will see the United States as a friend, not an enemy. Washington would gain substantial recognition as fighting for the people in the Arab world, not the corrupt regimes. For Israel, the rationale for a bolt from the blue attack on Iran's nuclear facilities would be eased. And a new Syrian regime might well be open to early action on the frozen peace talks with Israel. Hezbollah in Lebanon would be cut off from its Iranian sponsor since Syria would no longer be a transit point for Iranian training, assistance and missiles. All these strategic benefits and the prospect of saving thousands of civilians from murder at the hands of the Assad regime (10,000 have already been killed in this first year of civil war). With the veil of fear lifted from the Syrian people, they seem determine to fight for their freedom. America can and should help them — and by doing so help Israel and help reduce the risk of a wider war.




https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/18328#

 

[drmeson]

BT is claiming that downed vehicle was Saeghe powered by reciprocating engine with low RCS and IR signature.

Can anyone post a map of this incident?

 

[BHarwana]

BT is claiming that downed vehicle was Saeghe powered by reciprocating engine with low RCS and IR signature.

Can anyone post a map of this incident?

With Map you mean where the Jet went down?

 

[drmeson]

With Map you mean where the Jet went down?

Yes. Would be better if supposed IRGC bases are also marked in it.

 

[BHarwana]

Yes. Would be better if supposed IRGC bases are also marked in it.

No one knows where IRGC base is only info available that the drone was flown from Tays T4 air base.

 

[drmeson]

What I do not understand is why would they fly Saeghe into Israeli territory when same could have been achieved by faster vehicles operated by IRGC. Even if propaganda of penetration into the Israeli airspace was the purpose of this operation like BT is claiming, they could have penetrated far more with let's say Karrar with its jet powered 900+ km/h velocity and booster launch from near border area. It was an ambush to shoot down IAF fighter jet, but same could have been achieved by more faster and smaller vehicle with probably better results. IRGC wanted to show off to the world that we copied RQ-170 successfully and it enters enemy skies too? they must have known that it would be shot down by IAF and enemy will get to see everything being cooked inside Iran on this project. The material, the power-plant, sensors etc. Something does not add up.

No one knows where IRGC base is only info available that the drone was flown from Tays T4 air base.

Thanks.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

What I do not understand is why would they fly Saeghe into Israeli territory when same could have been achieved by faster vehicles operated by IRGC. Even if propaganda of penetration into the Israeli airspace was the purpose of this operation like BT is claiming, they could have penetrated far more with let's say Karrar with its jet powered 900+ km/h velocity and booster launch from near border area. It was an ambush to shoot down IAF fighter jet, but same could have been achieved by more faster and smaller vehicle with probably better results. IRGC wanted to show off to the world that we copied RQ-170 successfully and it enters enemy skies too? they must have known that it would be shot down by IAF and enemy will get to see everything being cooked inside Iran on this project. The material, the power-plant, sensors etc. Something does not add up.



Thanks.

I bet if they fly a Parrot Disco it can go into Golan pretty easily. It's very small, almost impossible to detect.

 

[drmeson]

I bet if they fly a Parrot Disco it can go into Golan pretty easily. It's very small, almost impossible to detect.

Then why use a rather large and more expensive vehicle for that task. Specially the one that you may want to hide from your enemy. Makes sense to you?

 

[BHarwana]

What I do not understand is why would they fly Saeghe into Israeli territory when same could have been achieved by faster vehicles operated by IRGC. Even if propaganda of penetration into the Israeli airspace was the purpose of this operation like BT is claiming, they could have penetrated far more with let's say Karrar with its jet powered 900+ km/h velocity and booster launch from near border area. It was an ambush to shoot down IAF fighter jet, but same could have been achieved by more faster and smaller vehicle with probably better results. IRGC wanted to show off to the world that we copied RQ-170 successfully and it enters enemy skies too? they must have known that it would be shot down by IAF and enemy will get to see everything being cooked inside Iran on this project. The material, the power-plant, sensors etc. Something does not add up.



Thanks.

@drmeson there you go. these are location of all things

 

[drmeson]

@BHarwana

Thanks.