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Israel plays wargame assuming Iran has nuclear bomb

All Iran has to do is stop support for Hezbollah and make peace with Israel the way Egypt did. Or are you going to deny that Iran has nothing to do with Hezbollah?

I never denied Iran's training, funding and inspiring Hezbollah on the contrary it's no secret.

What Iran does or doesn't is up to her, but I can't see why the US is so busy fighting Israel's war as it has enough problems itself.
I don't really believe the BS about the commonalities between the US and Israel. Israel has done nothing good for the US and wont hesitate to steal state secrets or kill Americans if it suits her interests.
USS Liberty Memorial
Sam Husseini: Israeli Spying on the US: a Long History
The Assault on the USS Liberty Still Covered Up After 26 Years
 
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I never denied Iran's training, funding and inspiring Hezbollah on the contrary it's no secret.
Then how can you try to portray Iran as the victim of Israeli aggression? Iran want to wipe Israel off the map. That is no secret. But Iran is unable to wage the typical state-on-state war so Iran is waging a religious war through proxy -- Hezbollah. Under the accepted rules of inter-state relations, Israel has every right to be aggressive against Iran. If I hire some punks to continually vandalize your house, are you going to deal only with the proxy or are you going straight to source -- me ?
 
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Then how can you try to portray Iran as the victim of Israeli aggression? Iran want to wipe Israel off the map. That is no secret. But Iran is unable to wage the typical state-on-state war so Iran is waging a religious war through proxy -- Hezbollah. Under the accepted rules of inter-state relations, Israel has every right to be aggressive against Iran. If I hire some punks to continually vandalize your house, are you going to deal only with the proxy or are you going straight to source -- me ?

The saddest part is that the Palestinians have been being used by the Arabs and the Iranians as pawns ever since the collapse of the Ottoman empire which had been efectively ruling the Lavent till 1916. This is worth noting that after the Ottoman collapse , no Arab nation was asking for Palestinian interests instead of their respective Arab empire with the annexation of the entire Lavent. More Palestinians were killed by their fellow Arabs ( in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan , kuwait for instance than the whole conflict. Now , we have a distorted history being taught all over the world as per the Nazi propaganda doctrine invented by Dr . Goebbels.

The only way Palestinian can have peace is to get rid of their Arab/Irani patrons . Then they can directly open negotiation with the Israelis with acceptance of the Israel's right to exist. Oslo agreement was an example of direct negotiation even though Bill Clinton hijacked the credit .

Iranians and other similar nation need to learn that weapon only can not make a nation prosper or gurantee it's security. Socio-economical index is more important. Japan is an example.
 
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Then how can you try to portray Iran as the victim of Israeli aggression? Iran want to wipe Israel off the map. That is no secret. But Iran is unable to wage the typical state-on-state war so Iran is waging a religious war through proxy -- Hezbollah. Under the accepted rules of inter-state relations, Israel has every right to be aggressive against Iran. If I hire some punks to continually vandalize your house, are you going to deal only with the proxy or are you going straight to source -- me ?

The aggression goes both ways, I was discussing a nuclear armed Israel that is too aggressive in the area, and that a nuclear Iran might put a cork to it. Israel, if it wants to stay alive and live in peace should stop being so aggressive and arrogant, when has anyone survived through spreading of fear and terror?
Iran want to wipe Israel off the map
Come on, Iran never said that, again zionists are masters of lies and deception. Here is what was said.
 
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The saddest part is that the Palestinians have been being used by the Arabs and the Iranians as pawns ever since the collapse of the Ottoman empire

Unfortunately true, but without money or military might, this is a necessary evil, we don't have any other option.

This is worth noting that after the Ottoman collapse , no Arab nation was asking for Palestinian interests instead of their respective Arab empire with the annexation of the entire Lavent
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The backstabbing Arabs who conspirated against the Ottomans with the British & Co are the fathers of those regimes currently found today. They never aspired real freedom and progress, only seats and titles. May they be condemned in this life and thereafter.

More Palestinians were killed by their fellow Arabs ( in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan , kuwait for instance than the whole conflict.

Thanks to Arafat and the Arab regimes.

Now , we have a distorted history being taught all over the world as per the Nazi propaganda doctrine invented by Dr . Goebbels.

I would say the Zionists have succeeded in distorting the history all too well.

Things that should be obvious in 2010 are still debated. Zionist myths are alive and well.

The only way Palestinian can have peace is to get rid of their Arab/Irani patrons . Then they can directly open negotiation with the Israelis with acceptance of the Israel's right to exist. Oslo agreement was an example of direct negotiation even though Bill Clinton hijacked the credit .

Will the Palestinians be able to face Israel backed by the West? how?
Well sir, we have had almost two decades of negotiation with Israel, and things have only gone to the worse. Palestinians already accepted Israel's right to exist in 1988, nothing new under the sun, Israel still doesn't recognize Palestine.
Oslo agreement was a backstage/secret negotiation process, which didn't include the voice of the Palestinian people. The biggest mistake in recent Palestinian history.



Iranians and other similar nation need to learn that weapon only can not make a nation prosper or gurantee it's security. Socio-economical index is more important. Japan is an example

Tell this to Israel
 
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The only way Palestinian can have peace is to get rid of their Arab/Irani patrons . Then they can directly open negotiation with the Israelis with acceptance of the Israel's right to exist. Oslo agreement was an example of direct negotiation even though Bill Clinton hijacked the credit .

this is the only sensible thing I have read from a Pakistani on this forum.

The problem with the Palestinian leadership is they have never been independent of foreign benefactors.

Arafat is Egyptian. He was hand-picked by Nasser. Fatah was originally an extension of Arab foreign policy.

The other leftist/marxist Palestinian movements came from Syria/Iraq.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad are trained and run by Iran and Syria.

The few Palestinian leaders who call for an independence from the Arab/Iranian tools are either killed or sent packing to Israel.

Over 10,000 Palestinians and their families now live under witness protection in Israel for being "collaborators" - or, supporting a normalized peace with Israel not dependent on constant demands and concessions.

But the Palestinians have no intention to be independent when they get free money from EU, permanent refugee status from the UN, and financial support from Israel and the USA without expectations.

"Moderate" Palestinians themselves have said openly, why should we give up the "struggle" when the world will pay us for it?
The aggression goes both ways, I was discussing a nuclear armed Israel that is too aggressive in the area, and that a nuclear Iran might put a cork to it. Israel, if it wants to stay alive and live in peace should stop being so aggressive and arrogant, when has anyone survived through spreading of fear and terror?

Comparing a nuclear Iran and nuclear Israel is absurd.

Israel has possessed nuclear weapons folr 4 decades and has not once resorted to using them even though the country has been under constant attack.

Iran attacking Israel with a nuclear device is a major and legitimate concern for the IDF, but the biggest concern for me are the Israeli hating radical customers of Iran who could potentially sell or supply the nukes.

The argument is that the mullahs are not crazy enough to use the weapon - this may be true. But who will make assurances that Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Gamma, Al Jihad or the thousands of other terror groups would be rationale and not use such a weapon.

Hamas and Hezbollah are groups like will literally blow themselves up for their cause.

The Arabs and Iranians don't fear Israel's nuclear program because it is predicated on self-defense.

Israel, on the other hand, has a legitimate fear of a nuclear Iran/nuclear Arab Israel's nuclear arsenal.

Israel's nuclear and military doctrine is based on the premise that it cannot lose a single war, and thus must prevent war by maintaing deterrence, including the option of a preemption.

For 30 years, the Arab-Israeli conflict has mostly been stunted because of Israel's military edge. The Arab states have been deterred, for now.

But a nuclear Iran would change everything.

And I'd wager the Arab states are just as afraid, if not more than Israel of a nuclear Iran.

The shia/sunni split predates Israel's existence by about 1400 years.

Remember the little war 20 years ago that killed 1,000,000?
 
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The few Palestinian leaders who call for an independence from the Arab/Iranian tools are either killed or sent packing to Israel.

care to come up with a source for this statement?

Over 10,000 Palestinians and their families now live under witness protection in Israel for being "collaborators" - or, supporting a normalized peace with Israel not dependent on constant demands and concessions.

Don't mix up traitors with people wanting peace, you know and I know these people are collaborators because they did your dirty job against their own people, you can keep them or return them so they can meet justice


But the Palestinians have no intention to be independent when they get free money from EU, permanent refugee status from the UN, and financial support from Israel and the USA without expectations.

"Moderate" Palestinians themselves have said openly, why should we give up the "struggle" when the world will pay us for it?

Bullocks


Comparing a nuclear Iran and nuclear Israel is absurd.

Israel has possessed nuclear weapons folr 4 decades and has not once resorted to using them even though the country has been under constant attack.

Iran attacking Israel with a nuclear device is a major and legitimate concern for the IDF, but the biggest concern for me are the Israeli hating radical customers of Iran who could potentially sell or supply the nukes.

No it's not absurd, Israel has constantly threatened using them even against people who it have made peace with, and has a plan of murdering millions of its neighbors if it feels threatened, you cannot be trusted with such a weapon.
Who says Iran would ever use such a weapon against you? utter baseless speculation, not to talk about selling or giving it to others, that's BS you know it I know it, so stop the hypocrisy, either you give up your nuke arsenal or everyone is allow ti obtain them



The argument is that the mullahs are not crazy enough to use the weapon - this may be true. But who will make assurances that Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Gamma, Al Jihad or the thousands of other terror groups would be rationale and not use such a weapon.

Hamas and Hezbollah are groups like will literally blow themselves up for their cause.

Again speculations, I never think that any of these will ever get them or use them, you talk about these people as if they have no brains. I think they are well aware of the consequences of any such move.


The Arabs and Iranians don't fear Israel's nuclear program because it is predicated on self-defense.

That's not true, Israel has proven its irrational actions again and again, they have the right to fear another one but with nuclear bombs, since all of their capitals are on the "hit list"


Israel, on the other hand, has a legitimate fear of a nuclear Iran/nuclear Arab Israel's nuclear arsenal.

You might as well prepare yourself for such a future as it's no longer a matter of "if" but "when"


Israel's nuclear and military doctrine is based on the premise that it cannot lose a single war, and thus must prevent war by maintaing deterrence, including the option of a preemption.

Just like the fake preemption in 1967? that's the essence of a dangerous and irrational Israel, who decides when it is time to bomb?


For 30 years, the Arab-Israeli conflict has mostly been stunted because of Israel's military edge. The Arab states have been deterred, for now.

But a nuclear Iran would change everything.

And I'd wager the Arab states are just as afraid, if not more than Israel of a nuclear Iran.

The shia/sunni split predates Israel's existence by about 1400 years.

Remember the little war 20 years ago that killed 1,000,000?

You see that's the essence of the problem, when Israel suddenly finds itself vulnerable it would be more enticed to make a genuine peace, not the BS it's doing right now. I am looking forward to see Israel on the negotiation table with a true intent on making peace instead of this BS acting and arrogant play and manipulation. Honestly I have yet to see a country or people that lies so much
 
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care to come up with a source for this statement?


Sure:

Khaled Abu Toameh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Palestinians Who Prefer Israel :: Daniel Pipes

Thousands of Palestinians apply for Israeli citizenship - Israel News, Ynetnews

Palestinians who don't tow the PLO line are shut down and killed.

Here is how Hamas deals with the "moderates:"

Hamas Execution of Fatah Members in Gaza - Road90

Hamas burning their own brothers to death - Road90

"moderate" Fatah threatens to kill Gaza journalists who meet with Israeli:

Palestinian, Israeli journalists meet in Tel Aviv

Now the PLO is threatening to fine Palestinians who work in Israeli settlements.

Don't mix up traitors with people wanting peace, you know and I know these people are collaborators because they did your dirty job against their own people, you can keep them or return them so they can meet justice

You mean this guy?

Amazon.com: Son of Hamas: A Gripping Account of Terror, Betrayal…


These "traiters" didn't support the suicide terrorism of the Palestinian leadership. these "traiters" saved the lives of civilians (both Palestinian and Israeli).

anyone who had a remote connection with Israeli could be accused of "collaboration." Hell, if you worked for the civil authority you could be killed. If you criticize the PLO you could be killed.


Wow, very persuasive. They teach that at Al-Quds university?

No it's not absurd, Israel has constantly threatened using them even against people who it have made peace with, and has a plan of murdering millions of its neighbors if it feels threatened, you cannot be trusted with such a weapon.

Who says Iran would ever use such a weapon against you? utter baseless speculation, not to talk about selling or giving it to others, that's BS you know it I know it, so stop the hypocrisy, either you give up your nuke arsenal or everyone is allow ti obtain them

Gibberish. Israel has never threatened to use its nuclear weapons. If the Arab states were truly fearful of an Israeli bombing, they would have surrendered after 1967, no?

Again speculations, I never think that any of these will ever get them or use them, you talk about these people as if they have no brains. I think they are well aware of the consequences of any such move.

What you think is irrelevant. I provided ample evidence as to why a nuclear Iran is not good for the region.
You see that's the essence of the problem, when Israel suddenly finds itself vulnerable it would be more enticed to make a genuine peace, not the BS it's doing right now. I am looking forward to see Israel on the negotiation table with a true intent on making peace instead of this BS acting and arrogant play and manipulation. Honestly I have yet to see a country or people that lies so much

Israel is the only country on the negotiating table. It called for peace in 1948. Arabs said no peace. It called for peace in 1967 as per UN242, Arabs rejected the resolution outright. After suffering another defeat in 1972, Egypt and Jordan make peace with Israel.

By the 1990s, Israel has agreed to peace treaties with Jordan, Egypt, and the PLO - having traded 94% of all land captured in 1967.

It is the Arab and Muslim states who refuse to negotiate.

now the PLO is trying to expel Israel (LOL) from the UN:

The PLO makes demands after demands after demands simply to negotiate.

They have no intention of making peace:

Proximity talks off to rocky start

It's about time Israel put the banhammer on the PLO and treat them like Jordan and Egypt treat the Palestinians.

no more peace process. no more handouts.
 
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Sure:

As I said anyone working with Israel to enforce or sustain occupation, no matter who he/she is and what their agenda is, are collaborators who needs to face justice. Is the system bullet proof? no
Daniel pipes? are you freakin kidding me? Let me ask a neo-nazi what he thinks about jews...


Wow, very persuasive. They teach that at Al-Quds university?

???



Gibberish. Israel has never threatened to use its nuclear weapons. If the Arab states were truly fearful of an Israeli bombing, they would have surrendered after 1967, no?

The phrase the “Samson Option” is used to describe Israel’s strategy of massive nuclear retaliation against “enemy” nations should its existence as a Jewish state be jeopardized through military attack. Israeli leaders created the term in the mid-1960s, inspired by the Biblical figure Samson, who destroyed a Philistine temple, killing himself and thousands of Philistine enemies.[1][2]

Israel refuses to admit officially that it has nuclear weapons - a policy known as “nuclear ambiguity” or "nuclear opacity."[3] This despite government officials inferring repeatedly - and occasionally admitting - the fact. And despite Israeli nuclear whistle blower Mordechai Vanunu making public smuggled photographs of nuclear weapons and production equipment in the 1980s.[4] Israel now may have as many as 400 atomic and hydrogen nuclear weapons,[5][6] as well as the ability to launch them via long range missiles, submarines and aircraft.[7] It can use them in a second strike even if its military is devastated.

Originally a strategy of last resort retaliation - even if it means Israel’s annihilation - it has developed into being a nuclear bullying strategy to further Israel’s territorial goals through threats and blackmail. Israel has bullied not only Arab and Muslim nations, but the United States and Russia with its Samson Option threats. Mordechai Vanunu has alleged that Israel uses for purposes of blackmail its ability to "bombard any city all over the world, and not only those in Europe but also those in the United States."[8]

Official policy and threats

During the 1960s Israel concentrated on conventional military superiority to defend lands confiscated in the 1948 and 1967 wars - and to convince Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territories that they could not break free of it. However, in 1973's Yom Kippur War Israel was almost overwhelmed by Arab forces. Prime Minister Golda Meir authorized a nuclear alert, ordering 13 atomic bombs be prepared for missiles and aircraft. Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Simha Dinitz threatened “very serious conclusions" if there was not an immediate airlift of supplies.[9] This forced U.S. President Richard Nixon to make emergency airlifts of state of the art military supplies to Israel.[10][11]

Fearing intervention by the Soviet Union, U.S. forces went on Defense Condition (DEFCON) III alert status[12], something which could have led to full scale nuclear war in case of misinterpretation of signals or hardware or software failures. Additionally, as Seymour Hersh documents in detail in his book The Samson Option, from 1973 these weapons have been used to discourage the Soviet Union - now Russia - from intervening militarily on behalf of Arab nations.[13] Obviously an Israeli nuclear attack on Russia by the United States’ great ally Israel would result in Russia sending thousands of nuclear weapons towards the U.S. and the U.S. responding in kind.

Not surprisingly, no nation state has attempted to attack Israel since 1973. A former Israeli official justified Israel’s threats. “You Americans screwed us” in not supporting Israel in its 1956 war with Egypt. “We can still remember the smell of Auschwitz and Treblinka. Next time we’ll take all of you with us.”[14] General Moshe Dayan, a leading promoter of Israel’s nuclear program[15], has been quoted as saying “Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.”[16] Amos Rubin, an economic adviser to former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, said "If left to its own Israel will have no choice but to fall back on a riskier defense which will endanger itself and the world at large... To enable Israel to abstain from dependence on nuclear arms calls for $2 to 3 billion per year in U.S. aid."[17]

In 1977, after a right-wing coalition under Menachen Begin took power, the Israelis began to use the Samson Option not just to deter attack but to allow Israel to “redraw the political map of the Middle East” by expanding hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers into the West Bank and Gaza.[18] Then-Minister of Defense Ariel Sharon said things like "We are much more important than (Americans) think. We can take the middle east with us whenever we go"[19] and "Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches."[20] He proclaimed his - and many Likud Party members' - goals of transforming Jordan into a Palestinian state and “transferring” all Palestinian refugees there.[21][22] A practice known worldwide as "ethnic cleansing."

To dissuade the Soviet Union from interfering with its plans, Prime Minister Begin immediately “gave orders to target more Soviet cities” for potential nuclear attack. Its American spy Jonathan Pollard was caught stealing such nuclear targeting information from the U.S. military in 1985.[23]

During the next 25 years Israel became more militarily adventurous, bombing Iraq’s under-construction Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981, invading Lebanon to destroy Palestinian refugee camps in 1982 and to fight Hezbollah in 2006, massively bombing civilian targets in the West Bank Jenin refugee camp in 2002 and thoughout Gaza in 2008-2009. There are conflicting reports about whether Israel went on nuclear alert and armed missiles with nuclear weapons during the 1991 Gulf War after Iraq shot conventionally armed scud missiles into it.[24][25]

In 2002, while the United States was building for the 2003 invasion of Iraq, then Prime Minister Ariel Sharon threatened that if Israel was attacked “Israel will react. Is it clear?”[26] Israeli defense analyst Zeev Schiff explained: “Israel could respond with a nuclear retaliation that would eradicate Iraq as a country.” It is believed President Bush gave Sharon the green-light to attack Baghdad in retaliation, including with nuclear weapons, but only if attacks came before the American military invasion.[27]

Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres has admitted that nuclear weapons are used by Israel for “compellent purposes” - i.e., forcing others to accept Israeli political demands.[28] In 1998 Peres was quoted as saying, "We have built a nuclear option, not in order to have a Hiroshima, but to have an Oslo," referring to imposing a settlement on the Palestinians.[29]

In her book Israel’s Sacred Terrorism Livia Rokach documented how Israelis have used religion to justify paramilitary and state terrorism to create and maintain a Jewish State.[30] Two other Israeli retaliation strategies are the popularized phrase “Wrath of God,” the alleged Israeli assassination of those it held responsible for the 1972 killings of Israeli athletes during the Munich Olympics[31], and the “Dahiya doctrine” of destruction of civilian areas to punish Palestinians for supporting their leaders.[32]

Israeli Israel Shahak wrote in 1997: "Israel clearly prepares itself to seek overtly a hegemony over the entire Middle East...without hesitating to use for the purpose all means available, including nuclear ones."[33] Zeev Schiff opined in 1998 that "Off-the-cuff Israeli nuclear threats have become a problem."[34] In 2003 David Hirst noted that “The threatening of wild, irrational violence, in response to political pressure, has been an Israeli impulse from the very earliest days” and called Israel a candidate for “the role of 'nuclear-crazy' state.”[35] Noam Chomsky said of the Samson Option “the craziness of the state is not because the people are insane. Once you pick a policy of choosing expansion over security, that's what you end up getting stuck with.”[36] Efraim Karsh calls the Samson Option the “rationality of pretended irrationality,” but warns that seeming too irrational could encourage other nations to attack Israel in their own defense.[37]

Samson Option Supporters

Two Israel supporters are frequently quoted for their explicit support of the Samson Option. Martin Van Creveld, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, has been quoted as saying: "Most European capitals are targets for our air force....We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under."[38]

In 2002 the Los Angeles Times, published an opinion piece by Louisiana State University professor David Perlmutter in which he wrote: "What would serve the Jew-hating world better in repayment for thousands of years of massacres but a Nuclear Winter. Or invite all those tut-tutting European statesmen and peace activists to join us in the ovens? For the first time in history, a people facing extermination while the world either cackles or looks away--unlike the Armenians, Tibetans, World War II European Jews or Rwandans--have the power to destroy the world. The ultimate justice?"[39]

Two influential Israel supporters advocate more active use of the Samson Option threat. Louis René Beres, a professor of Political Science at Purdue University and an Ariel Sharon advisor, recommends Israel use the Samson Option threat to support conventional preemptive attacks against enemy nuclear and non-nuclear assets, discouraging conventional retaliation.[40] Jerome Corsi, a Harvard Ph.D. in political science and author of two books encouraging Israel to use nuclear weapons[41], writes that “Israel's Samson Option” could be “a preemptive strike against Iran.”[42]

The Israelis also are egged on in its nuclear threats by "Christian Zionists" like Hal Lindsay who believe Israel must expand its control of territory to its Biblical borders in order to bring about Armageddon and the return of Jesus Christ.[43] Some suspect that former President George W. Bush holds such beliefs,[44] especially after his November 2007 statement "If you want to see World War Three, you know, a way to do that is to attack Israel with a nuclear weapon."[45]

What you think is irrelevant. I provided ample evidence as to why a nuclear Iran is not good for the region.

Can't be worse than a nuclear armed Israel.


Israel is the only country on the negotiating table. It called for peace in 1948. Arabs said no peace. It called for peace in 1967 as per UN242, Arabs rejected the resolution outright. After suffering another defeat in 1972, Egypt and Jordan make peace with Israel.

What peace ? can I come to your house and steal it and offer you peace?

By the 1990s, Israel has agreed to peace treaties with Jordan, Egypt, and the PLO - having traded 94% of all land captured in 1967.

It is the Arab and Muslim states who refuse to negotiate.

When you give up 100% of the land according to UN resolutions we can talk. Until then you are still an occupier


It's about time Israel put the banhammer on the PLO and treat them like Jordan and Egypt treat the Palestinians.

For God's sake plz do that, maybe they will wake up from this nightmare.


no more peace process. no more handouts

thank you for proving that all the peace talk is bullocks.
 
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As I said anyone working with Israel to enforce or sustain occupation, no matter who he/she is and what their agenda is, are collaborators who needs to face justice. Is the system bullet proof? no
Daniel pipes? are you freakin kidding me? Let me ask a neo-nazi what he thinks about jews..

This isn't a response.

PLO considers anyone who doesn't tow their line as a collaborator.

I said "collaborators" are those who support a negotiated peace with Israel, and oppose terrorism.

Instead of refuting this, you simply restate your original thesis.

Over 2,000 Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians between the 1st and 2nd intifada, virtually all of them innocent people.

They're crime? Working for an Israeli. Refusing to obey fascist orders from Palestinian gangsters.

And yet you sit there and support it. I posted video SHOWING what Palestinians do to themselves and you don't even bat an eye.

Unreal.
The phrase the “Samson Option” is used to describe Israel’s strategy of massive nuclear retaliation against “enemy” nations should its existence as a Jewish state be jeopardized through military attack. Israeli leaders created the term in the mid-1960s, inspired by the Biblical figure Samson, who destroyed a Philistine temple, killing himself and thousands of Philistine enemies.[1][2]

Copypasta much?

What peace ? can I come to your house and steal it and offer you peace?

What? Israel agreed to a negotiated peace. The Arab states rejected it every time, well before the "occupation."

Your dubious argument that it is Israel's aggression that has torpedoed peace is not supported by fact or Arab history.

As far as theft goes, the arab states seized a land 4x the size of Israel that once belonged to Jews and practically erased the Jewish presence in the Arab world that predates the Arab identity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

My family was expelled from Syria, their land stolen and forced to move to Israel.

You don't see me bitching about it and saying I get to wage terror against Syria to reclaim my stolen land.

Get over it. The entire Arab presence in the middle east is through genocide and expulsion. Arab caliphates killed 80 million in India between 1000-1500.

What goes around comes around, Akmed.

When you give up 100% of the land according to UN resolutions we can talk. Until then you are still an occupier

What UN resolution might that be? :coffee:
 
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This isn't a response.
Yes it is, whom you consider innocent I consider collaborators. I am not talking about politics and opposition, but about people who decided to work for Israel against its people, primarily supplying intelligence.

PLO considers anyone who doesn't tow their line as a collaborator.

I despise the PLO, they have their own agenda, and are hypocrites.

I
said "collaborators" are those who support a negotiated peace with Israel, and oppose terrorism.

I said "collaborators" are those working WITH israel, the thing you mention are called different political views which I support.

Over 2,000 Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians between the 1st and 2nd intifada, virtually all of them innocent people.

A huge shame, although I don't buy that virtually all of them were innocent, yet I don't deny that some were.

Copypasta much?

You expect me to rewrite all of this? just read it for God's sake and give me your oppinion.


Your dubious argument that it is Israel's aggression that has torpedoed peace is not supported by fact or Arab history.

I was merely refuting the notion that poor Israel is the one wanting peace and that the bad guys don't. I don't deny that Arabs have on occasions rejected peace.

As far as theft goes, the arab states seized a land 4x the size of Israel that once belonged to Jews and practically erased the Jewish presence in the Arab world that predates the Arab identity.

What land are you referring to?


My family was expelled from Syria, their land stolen and forced to move to Israel.

I support your right to go back to Syria and get compensation
But not all jews where forced out of arab countries.
here are a few remarks from the link you posted:
Iraqi-born Ran Cohen, a former member of the Knesset, said: "I have this to say: I am not a refugee. I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee". Yemeni-born Yisrael Yeshayahu, former Knesset speaker, Labor Party, stated: "We are not refugees. [Some of us] came to this country before the state was born. We had messianic aspirations". And Iraqi-born Shlomo Hillel, also a former speaker of the Knesset, Labor Party, claimed: "I do not regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists.

I do honestly support any jew that was expelled. Do you do the same?

Get over it. The entire Arab presence in the middle east is through genocide and expulsion. Arab caliphates killed 80 million in India between 1000-1500.

What goes around comes around, Akmed.

You didn't read arab history did you? if we are so bad why imitate us?
Btw, you do know that the majority of the middle eastern people are not arabs by ethnicity?

What UN resolution might that be? :coffee:

UN security council resolution 242 and 338 among others.
 
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The aggression goes both ways, I was discussing a nuclear armed Israel that is too aggressive in the area, and that a nuclear Iran might put a cork to it. Israel, if it wants to stay alive and live in peace should stop being so aggressive and arrogant, when has anyone survived through spreading of fear and terror?
Of course the aggresion goes both ways. But I can see you are trying to avoid the real issue. Everyone has grievances against others. Some grievances are minor, some are major. The US and Canada has grievances like fishing disputes...

Pacific salmon: the Canada--United States dispute(BP-429E)
In sum, 12 years after the signing of the Canada-U.S. Pacific Salmon Treaty, the equity principle has still not been fully implemented. The failure over successive years to agree on the implementation of the Treaty principles is a persistent bilateral irritant, the cause of much unpredictability in the industry, and a serious threat to the conservation of certain stocks. For the many groups who rely on Pacific salmon for sustenance, pleasure or profit, the challenge is to ensure that the cornerstone principles of the Treaty are implemented to their full potential.

Or how about between Canada and Denmark...

Fishing dispute between Canada, Denmark heats up
"Canada has been working in good faith to resolve issues in NAFO regarding the allocation of 3L shrimp for the Faroese and Greenlandic fleets, but their continued overfishing is unacceptable and the time for action is now," said Ms. Shea.

Even Saddam Hussein had a grievance...

Iraq Accuses Kuwait Again - CBS News
The ruling Baath party newspaper, Al-Thawra, said in a front-page editorial that Kuwaiti officials have "implicitly" acknowledged they are stealing Iraqi oil by drilling wells that may stretch horizontally to reach Iraqi reservoirs close to the border, "depleting (Iraqi) crude via this vicious method."

All grievances has victims, aka sympathetic parties, and resolution methods. The most drastic resolution method is -- war. Iraq argued that stealing oil, a national asset, warranted the most drastic resolution. Each party in a dispute want the international community to see it in the most sympathetic light, even if war is the resolution method and the sympathetic party is the one to initiate the war. When it comes to national security, the court of international opinion is usually good enough without the aggrieved party taking the matter to the UN Security Council and this same court has no problems with the 'shoot-first-ask-questions-later' resolution method. When it comes to national security, no one would demand the aggrieved party wait for a formal approval of military response. The aggrieved party's citizens could be dying...!!!

So the questions are:

- Is the Israelis-Palestinians dispute a national security threat to Iran?

- If yes, then how is it a national security threat?

- Are there any tangible losses to the Iranian nation's assets as the Israelis-Palestinians dispute continues?

- Is the Israelis-Palestinians dispute a direct threat to Iran's relationships with other countries?

Affirmatives to these questions would sway the court of public opinion to Iran's favor and the more evidence Iran amass in front of the court to support these questions, the greater the sympathy level for Iran and since Iran could not mount a typical state-on-state military response to these questions, any Iranian proxy will earn the same sympathy when it act on Iran's behalf. But with no credible evidence to support these questions it is clear that Iran is the ORIGINAL aggressor between the Israel-Iran hostility. Therefore, Hezbollah's attacks on Israeli territory constitute acts of war and with Iran as the originator of this hostile relationship, Israel has no good cause to believe that an Iranian nuclear weapons program would NOT be used against Israeli cities. Remember how everyone castigated US for lack of 'WMD' in Iraq? Precisely because Iran failed to present evidence to support these questions to earn appropriate international sympathy, this would make the Israel-Iran War an illegal one.

Like it or not, the Israel-Iran War has been going on all these years and the Iranian nuclear weapons program just raised the stakes for both sides. Absent any credible evidence to the above questions to generate sympathies for Iran, this make the Israel-Iran War a religious one and the plight of the Palestinians is a smokescreen for this religious fervor. A religious war is one of annihilation, not compromises, so when Iran made veiled threats about wiping Israel off the map, no matter how good the interpretive verbal dances Iranian defenders perform for the public, Israel has to take serious the possibility that one or more Israeli cities will be nuclear victims of Iranian religious wrath.

Pakistan has NOTHING to gain but much to lose, short and long term, in taking Iran's side in this war. Escalation is required for any victory and once Iran successfully test detonate a nuclear device, the war will go nuclear. After an Israeli city is reduced to nuclear rubble and the world sees Iranian and Pakistani muslims rejoicing, India and others in the region will have no choice but to default that Pakistan assisted in said nuclear destruction. The Iran-Pakistan alliance will be politically isolated and militarily surrounded. If you love your country, stay away from Iran. Pakistan does not need Iran to lend moral support to the Palestinians cause.
 
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Pakistan has NOTHING to gain but much to lose, short and long term, in taking Iran's side in this war. Escalation is required for any victory and once Iran successfully test detonate a nuclear device, the war will go nuclear. After an Israeli city is reduced to nuclear rubble and the world sees Iranian and Pakistani muslims rejoicing, India and others in the region will have no choice but to default that Pakistan assisted in said nuclear destruction. The Iran-Pakistan alliance will be politically isolated and militarily surrounded. If you love your country, stay away from Iran. Pakistan does not need Iran to lend moral support to the Palestinians cause.


Pakistan , the US admin and the Saudis have agreed in principle on the Iran issue. That is very simple - Iran will not be allowed to detonate a test device. No matter what other people say , Pakistan government will support the action approved the US administration. Not to mention the Saudis who will be the last to see a Nuclear Iran. The real target of Iranian nuke is Saudi Arabia , not Israel.
 
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Pakistan , the US admin and the Saudis have agreed in principle on the Iran issue. That is very simple - Iran will not be allowed to detonate a test device. No matter what other people say , Pakistan government will support the action approved the US administration. Not to mention the Saudis who will be the last to see a Nuclear Iran. The real target of Iranian nuke is Saudi Arabia , not Israel.
Any authentic source of this claim, please?

Speculation of Iran going nuclear and testing device, is all behind this crisis, created by USA and Israel. They have not given any hard proof, only FALSE CLAIMS!

You seem to contribute to this campaign.

Come on man. Get a life.

Fighter
 
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Any authentic source of this claim, please?

Speculation of Iran going nuclear and testing device, is all behind this crisis, created by USA and Israel. They have not given any hard proof, only FALSE CLAIMS!

You seem to contribute to this campaign.

Come on man. Get a life.

Fighter

An Indian does not need to know about Pakistan government policy. Try to live like an Indian where you eat and breath. Try to love your country first. People like you have ruined the relation between Pakistan and India.
 
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