Islamic and Western thought in Turkey - A problem yet not solved

[rabia kashmiri]

Chinese civilization is a nation, we are one, we are a big ship, so we want to accept the new system, it is very complicated and painful. But Muslim civilization is not a country, so some countries quickly make some adjustments than in other countries such as Turkey and Iran, Pakistan. ( although not enough like Iran and Turkey ). Chinese Muslims also have this experience, HUI method similar to Turkey and Iran ( the age of Kings ), a thoroughly secular. But they have not lost faith, HUI has no problem to adapt to the industrial age, HUI adapted to have a condition, stability ( internal and external) and effective management ( sustainable economic development) , China we is a good assistant for protection. This is our experience, of course, it may not be adapted to other Muslim society.

---------- Post added at 11:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 PM ----------



No, I respect all religions. But I also don't like some religious practice. Both Buddhist \ Christian \ Islam, that there is always something 's not love, but I still respect all religions, as long as it also respect me.

china................pak chin yoi wan soye.am i right?

---------- Post added at 12:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 AM ----------

Chinese are one nation living in China.


We Muslims are one Nation even living in different countries.
so,that's good nah.................

 

[Armstrong]

Maybe you misunderstood, I have not blamed for Muslims, as you said, some separatist does not limit in the Muslim. I didn't take the blame here. It is a rare opportunity to do an exchange, so I share my point of view, maybe he is not good enough, but at least it's some real thoughts from a chinese.

If I could speak Chinese or you Urdu...we could share some more thoughts but its hard for me to understand most of what your saying ! I apologize if you find that offensive !

 

[aamerjamal]

hi some of our friends keep saying about industrial age but they forgot and didnt know that this industrial revolution or industrial complex is also introduced by muslims to the world.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

Zulkarneyn I haven't read your article yet, neither the discussion it engendered here, but why would [some] people assume 'Islamic' and 'Western' are mutually exclusive? The Islamic civilization imbibes whatever it finds good and wholesome (and sometimes not so!) without regard to its provenance.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

Armstrong and other non-Turkish people, please hold yourselves from taking Zulkarneyn's discourse to generality. It is I feel intrinsically interwoven with Turkish history. They ARE Eastern Rome, and they have a tumultuous history in this century that changed from one model to another. They deserve discussion where Pakistanis and Indians don't drag Islam and Atheism in.

 

[Developereo]

I personally think that the general balance is always good, you are against the secular forces, but there are other forces to strike a balance to the religious scholars? If you have, you do not need the secular forces.

I am not sure where I gave the impression that I am against secular forces. Perhaps we have a different concept of what the term means. Like I wrote, I believe the solution to Muslim countries' stagnation lies in neutralizing the conservative religious scholars' inertia by progressive secular forces.

I would also be interested what kind of 'other' forces you feel can be useful in balancing religious conservatism and, whether you feel Muslim countries possess those forces.

Yeah I could live with that quite happily but I'm not sure how secular it can be if the President vetoes research on stem cells and human cloning simply because it goes against his religious sensibilities and that the Constitution quite conspicuously mentions the One God. I think they have another word for such kind of a secularism - Religious and Legal Pluralism - and with a certain provisions Pakistan may well be such a society !

You would be surprised how much broad interfaith support you will find for conservative values in the US. A leader has to balance the value system of the electorate with opposing demands. There are scientists who advocate unrestricted cloning of humans, yet many people (religious and otherwise) would be uncomfortable with that.

I think we agree broadly on the reasons for the Muslim societies' stagnation. There is nothing inherently anti-science in Islamic thought or teachings. The reason for the stagnation lies in the reflexive 'hunkering down' mentality of the religious scholars, and the people at large, in the face of a rapidly changing world which has caught them by surprise. The other reason is the rejection of the Western (post) colonial exploitation and the tendency to throw out everything perceived as being Western, including science and reason.

 

[Developereo]

This is a touch, Muslim friends, I would like to ask a question, how do you think this matter? Chinese Hui, an intellectual fell anger and anxiety, a small restaurant owners believe that a religious school is good enough for his children. How you think?

Yes, this is a very serious problem in Muslim communities around the world. The religious scholars have become our worst enemies by brainwashing people against 'secular' education.

Secularization, it is vague, in fact, industrialization and modernization is a clearer idea.

I am not sure why secularization is so central to your thesis. As you noted, the Iranian theocracy is managing to stay competitive in the industrial age so, clearly, secularism is not a prerequisite to industrial strength.

 

[huzihaidao12]

If I could speak Chinese or you Urdu...we could share some more thoughts but its hard for me to understand most of what your saying ! I apologize if you find that offensive !

Do not need to apologize, friend, I also have the same feeling, language is a big problem for the exchange.

---------- Post added at 10:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 AM ----------

hi some of our friends keep saying about industrial age but they forgot and didnt know that this industrial revolution or industrial complex is also introduced by muslims to the world.

I agree, but it does not change the fact that Muslim countries have lagged far behind other industrialized countries in the industrial age. Muslim scientists also have great contribution in science, but it is a personal achievement, it does not change this fact, most of the Muslim community stilladapt to industrialization.

The industrial era is just a word, but it means so many things.
From the agricultural age into the industrial era, the Chinese civilization has gone through this process, we know enough about it.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Yes, this is a very serious problem in Muslim communities around the world. The religious scholars have become our worst enemies by brainwashing people against 'secular' education.

This is a good description, as I said, in general not Islam thinking, but Muslims as a community, he is not suited to a new system, as you say, Islam encourages Muslims to learn scienceculture, it is no problem in thinking,but Muslims as a community, how to accept this idea——"Islam encourages the learning of science and culture"? If it is only flying in the air, it may be beautiful to watch, but no other meaning, it needs to be landed on the ground, like my example people live in the ground, science and culture takes time and effort, this is a direct and unavoidable problem, if a child has 8 hours of free time? How many hours you will be allocated to spend on science and culture, how many hours spent on religious knowledge? My bottom line, six hours to spend learning of scientific knowledge, the two hours spent on religious knowledge, and then I can say, it is true, Islam encourages the learning of science and culture. If four hours spent learning the scientific knowledge, four hours spent religious knowledge, I can accept, but I have a suspected, whether it is enough, because I know it is not enough for the Chinese people, unless the Muslims are far more clever than the Chinese. If you tell me, you decide to 2 hours spent learning the scientific knowledge, and six hours spent on religious knowledge, I will tell you, Islam encourages the learning of science and culture? I do not buy it, you can sell to others.

You see, now you can understand my words, the main problem is not thinking of Islam, but Muslims as a community, you have not suited the industrial age.

 

[huzihaidao12]

In fact, a friend of Saudi Arabia has a good description, in the past, bow and arrow is the key weapons in the desert war, but today, fighters like bows and arrows of the value, but, in the agricultural age, a child only needs two hours to learn the bow and arrow, he can spend six hours to learn the knowledge of religion, it is no problem in the agricultural era, the Muslims will still have enough military power, but in order to study the manufacture of modern fighter, do you think it is enough just to spend two hours to learn scientific knowledge? This is the industrial age, which is one too many different and the agricultural age.

 

[huzihaidao12]

I said, from our point of view, Islam has some advantages compared to other religions, even Islam is a combination of the advantages from other religions, but the advantages of the agricultural age, and not necessarily mean you will have the advantage in the industrial age, even if the advantage of the agricultural age, will become a big flaw in the industrial era, a new system is not friendly enough for the old things, sometimes.

 

[Developereo]

You see, now you can understand my words, the main problem is not thinking of Islam, but Muslims as a community, you have not suited the industrial age.

I think we are all saying the same thing. Islam by itself has nothing against science but, at the end of the day, what matters is not abstract Islam but actual Muslims. And Muslim societies, under the influence of Muslim scholars, have turned their back on modern learning.

The example of Islamic schools is interesting. There are Islamic (and Christian and Jewish) schools in the West, but they are required by law to have a broad curriculum, focusing mostly on secular, mainstream subjects. It satisfies the concerns of conservative religious parents, while making sure the kids receive standardized education. So, the Islamic school is Islamic, not because they spend 6 hours on Islam and 2 on science, but they spend the same amount of time on science as any other school, but the school environment is sufficiently conservative Islamic that parents feel comfortable sending their children (daughters) to school.

I don't know how Islamic schools in China operate but, if similar education requirements are enforced by the government, then it shouldn't matter what kind of school a child goes to.

 

[huzihaidao12]

I am very familiar with the idea for you, it is almost a copy (at least in part) for us in the past times.

 

[Developereo]

I am very familiar with the idea for you, it is almost a copy (at least in part) for us in the past times.

You are right. In the West, and China and Turkey and Iran, the strong government came and said "you MUST learn science - no choice". Many Muslim countries have not had that because the government has been mostly useless.

 

[huzihaidao12]

I think we are all saying the same thing. Islam by itself has nothing against science but, at the end of the day, what matters is not abstract Islam but actual Muslims. And Muslim societies, under the influence of Muslim scholars, have turned their back on modern learning.

The example of Islamic schools is interesting. There are Islamic (and Christian and Jewish) schools in the West, but they are required by law to have a broad curriculum, focusing mostly on secular, mainstream subjects. It satisfies the concerns of conservative religious parents, while making sure the kids receive standardized education. So, the Islamic school is Islamic, not because they spend 6 hours on Islam and 2 on science, but they spend the same amount of time on science as any other school, but the school environment is sufficiently conservative Islamic that parents feel comfortable sending their children (daughters) to school.

I don't know how Islamic schools in China operate but, if similar education requirements are enforced by the government, then it shouldn't matter what kind of school a child goes to.

It is good to hear some things. Although there are other issues.

Chinese government to encourage parents to accept the modern scientific knowledge, from elementary school to junior high school, it is already exempt from tuition fees, but the Chinese government does not force you, even non-Muslims do not want his children to college than business, the government will try to impose powerful influence of public opinion on your side, but the bottom line, if you really do not want your child to receive education, you are free, whether Muslim or non-Muslims, but because the concept of the Chinese society is to focus on education, but also because of the competitive considerations, it is generally not a big problem.

Moreover, it has been a long time coming, the HUI has been more integration and mainstream society. I remember I posted a message, the HUI's practice, so that the children on a regular school (secular schools), after all, there is a more good condition, they do a religious classes during the holidays (summer and winter). the HUI is very important in science education that they have no problem at this point, I think.

---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------

You are right. In the West, and China and Turkey and Iran, the strong government came and said "you MUST learn science - no choice". Many Muslim countries have not had that because the government has been mostly useless.

You misunderstand it, very sorry, something difficult to say.

I am very familiar with the idea for you all Muslim members , it is almost a copy (at least in part) for us in the past times(1840-1949).