Islamic and Western thought in Turkey - A problem yet not solved

[huzihaidao12]

As ironic it seems, there is nothing surprising here. The feelings towards Gandhi in my country changed very fast and his death stands out. The deeds at a certain point of time can never be justified to all at another point of time. You have to take it that these persons are still discussed about in a good or bad way is like paying homage to them (even negative one is valid). I say this because someone like me will not be discussed even when i am living other than within my known circle. I hope u get the drift here...

Haha, it's not worth mentioning compared with MAO dispute in China. However, the great man would get a true evaluation in history.

 

[Armstrong]

Correct, at least partially correct, this is why Turkey some changes recently, but, sir, do you have any idea in Iran? Iran's way more interesting.

I'm sorry I'm a lazy f**k so I can't go through all your previous posts but if you would expound on what you're saying a little bit more I'd be much obliged to answer

 

[Armstrong]

I prefer the inclusive, American-style of secularism rather than the oppressive, European style of 'hide your religion' secularism.

Yeah I could live with that quite happily but I'm not sure how secular it can be if the President vetoes research on stem cells and human cloning simply because it goes against his religious sensibilities and that the Constitution quite conspicuously mentions the One God. I think they have another word for such kind of a secularism - Religious and Legal Pluralism - and with a certain provisions Pakistan may well be such a society !

 

[huzihaidao12]

I'm sorry I'm a lazy f**k so I can't go through all your previous posts but if you would expound on what you're saying a little bit more I'd be much obliged to answer

That's my bad, my English is poor. I mean, the reform of Turkey is a top-down, very thorough reform of secularization. A cutting operation against the Muslim community 's biggest problem, how to adapt to the industrial age. But like you said, it is a top-down, because a variety of reasons, recently, it has some problems. The way of Turkey there are some uncertain factors in the internal, and the way of Iran way the biggest problem in his country's survival, if it can not survive from external threats, even though Iran is more effective, it is not successful because the interruption from the outside.I have something to look forward to, it is the most successful two ways in the Muslim community, or even in some respects, they are opposite, but they still have their own success in adaptability, it is very interesting.

---------- Post added at 10:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 PM ----------

This is my core idea, Muslim society still did not adapt to the industrial civilization, although Iran and Turkey the most close to success, is there any Muslim friends do not agree with it? Either for or against, can share your point of view?

 

[Armstrong]

That's my bad, my English is poor. I mean, the reform of Turkey is a top-down, very thorough reform of secularization. A cutting operation against the Muslim community 's biggest problem, how to adapt to the industrial age. But like you said, it is a top-down, because a variety of reasons, recently, it has some problems. The way of Turkey there are some uncertain factors in the internal, and the way of Iran way the biggest problem in his country's survival, if it can not survive from external threats, even though Iran is more effective, it is not successful because the interruption from the outside.I have something to look forward to, it is the most successful of the two ways in the Muslim community, or even in some respects, they are opposite, but they still have their own success in adaptability, it is very interesting.

---------- Post added at 10:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 PM ----------

This is my core idea, Muslim society still did not adapt to the industrial civilization, is there any Muslim friends do not agree with it? Either for or against, can share your point of view?

Turkey is indeed a good model to follow and so is Iran - they both have their strengths and their weaknesses. I'm very impressed with how women in Turkey are taking the nation forward by standing shoulder to shoulder with the men in all of Turkey's trials and tribulations but at the same time I'm also very much impressed with Iran's sense of unity and how they've managed to create a very good domestic economy under all those sanctions.

As for your assertion that Muslims haven't adapted to the Industrial Age, I think you're correct. The largest benefit of the Industrial Revolution of the 19th century (was it), in my opinion, lay in how the wonderful concepts of liberty, popular opinion, universal suffrage etc. that had been created in the backdrop of the Age of Enlightenment found a platform for themselves because production became intrinsically linked with employee welfare and because the improvements in people's welfare gave the ordinary men and women a heightened intellectual awareness about things such as 'right and privileges'.

Its true that just as Western Thought went through a reassessment during the Age of Enlightenment, there wasn't a similar Intellectual Renaissance in the Muslim World because whereas the West was coming out of the Dark Ages in real terms, the Muslims were entering into them. After the destruction of Islamic Centres of learning in Baghdad, in Cordoba and in other parts of what is now present day Iran and Iraq and the subsequent massacre of scholars by the Mongols the Muslims never recovered. Even before that whereas in Muslim Maktabs (or Schools) language, rhetoric and philosophy was integral to study..it was replaced by fiqh (Jurisprudence) and fiqh alone, due to political reasons, during the Safavid Empire and this stifled any of the previous critical thinking that Muslim polymaths and jurists had found integral to any discourse on secular or religious sciences. Unfortunately...even though later scholars did emerge in succeeding Empires from that of the Ottoman in Turkey and adjoining areas to the Mughal in the Indian Subcontinent, but the damage was done and none of the subsequent works of scholarship could measure up to the standards of excellence set by their predecessors. Unfortunately this intellectual rot has been ubiquitously present in the Muslim World till today because people have either abandoned Islam as a socio-political-economic and legal belief system altogether as archaic and started imitating whatever the West does or they're still stuck in their substandard pursuits of scholarship that lead to all sorts of problems for the Muslims and the World at large. However, this recent trend is regressing somewhat recently mainly because of many of converts from some of the more developed societies where an academic culture of scholarly excellence is still very much integral to much of the research they carry out. Additionally many Muslims have tried to reconcile modernity with Islam by going back to the roots and more and more people are finding out about some excellent, excellent totems of philosophy, law, politics, economics and society that were written by people like Al-Baruni, Avicenna, Al-Kindi, Ibn Farad etc.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Turkey is indeed a good model to follow and so is Iran - they both have their strengths and their weaknesses. I'm very impressed with how women in Turkey are taking the nation forward by standing shoulder to shoulder with the men in all of Turkey's trials and tribulations but at the same time I'm also very much impressed with Iran's sense of unity and how they've managed to create a very good domestic economy under all those sanctions.

As for your assertion that Muslims haven't adapted to the Industrial Age, I think you're correct. The largest benefit of the Industrial Revolution of the 19th century (was it), in my opinion, lay in how the wonderful concepts of liberty, popular opinion, universal suffrage etc. that had been created in the backdrop of the Age of Enlightenment found a platform for themselves because production became intrinsically linked with employee welfare and because the improvements in people's welfare gave the ordinary men and women a heightened intellectual awareness about things such as 'right and privileges'.

Its true that just as Western Thought went through a reassessment during the Age of Enlightenment, there wasn't a similar Intellectual Renaissance in the Muslim World because whereas the West was coming out of the Dark Ages in real terms, the Muslims were entering into them. After the destruction of Islamic Centres of learning in Baghdad, in Cordoba and in other parts of what is now present day Iran and Iraq and the subsequent massacre of scholars by the Mongols the Muslims never recovered. Even before that whereas in Muslim Maktabs (or Schools) language, rhetoric and philosophy was integral to study..it was replaced by fiqh (Jurisprudence) and fiqh alone, due to political reasons, during the Safavid Empire and this stifled any of the previous critical thinking that Muslim polymaths and jurists had found integral to any discourse on secular or religious sciences. Unfortunately...even though later scholars did emerge in succeeding Empires from that of the Ottoman in Turkey and adjoining areas to the Mughal in the Indian Subcontinent, but the damage was done and none of the subsequent works of scholarship could measure up to the standards of excellence set by their predecessors. Unfortunately this intellectual rot has been ubiquitously present in the Muslim World till today because people have either abandoned Islam as a socio-political-economic and legal belief system altogether as archaic and started imitating whatever the West does or they're still stuck in their substandard pursuits of scholarship that lead to all sorts of problems for the Muslims and the World at large. However, this recent trend is regressing somewhat recently mainly because of many of converts from some of the more developed societies where an academic culture of scholarly excellence is still very much integral to much of the research they carry out. Additionally many Muslims have tried to reconcile modernity with Islam by going back to the roots and more and more people are finding out about some excellent, excellent totems of philosophy, law, politics, economics and society that were written by people like Al-Baruni, Avicenna, Al-Kindi, Ibn Farad etc.

It is really very similar experiences, especially the agitation in the ideological field, you Muslim civilization and we chinese civilization. And we can even more miserable than you, we almost have been broken in all respects, because - CCP, we come back. Frankly, look at the point of view of Muslim member, it is a familiar feeling in history.It seems that yesterday's history on your side, even if the content is different, but its essence is the same.

I have a question, friend, how you look at the secularization?

 

[huzihaidao12]

Another problem, in fact, that there is a big discussion about Islam in Chinese BBS, intense and long-term, I remember a member of the HUI, once issued a post, she is a wife of Hui, she said her husband see these discussionsis ,also worried about Islam and the HUI, she told us one thing.

One day, she and her husband into a restaurant, the boss is the HUI, her husband is very pleased to see compatriots, just the boss has a son, may be 10 years old (I do not remember the exact figures).

He is pleased to ask the BOSS "Your son has to go to school?"

The boss said, "Yes, he has to go."

He is pleased, but the boss went on to say, "I have let him go to a Muslim school"

He said, I mean, if you let him receive formal education and knowledge in schools, in addition to religious knowledge?

The boss said, why? It has is enough to accept the Muslim knowledge.

The woman's husband was very angry and sad, why? Because the child is 10 years old, that is the best age for learning scientific knowledge. Therefore, he felt a deep anger (to he boss) and worries for the future of the Hui and Muslims. this is a very well-known posts, so I was impressed.

I said, the Muslim civilization is a system, Muslim civilization still has not adapted to industrial civilization, but I did not touch what is not suitable in this system, however, always need to touch some of the things, if a system is not suited to some things, it certainly has some problems in the system if you really want to solve, must go to touch it.

This is a touch, Muslim friends, I would like to ask a question, how do you think this matter? Chinese Hui, an intellectual fell anger and anxiety, a small restaurant owners believe that a religious school is good enough for his children. How you think?

 

[huzihaidao12]

Secularization, it is vague, in fact, industrialization and modernization is a clearer idea.

 

[Armstrong]

It is really very similar experiences, especially the agitation in the ideological field, you Muslim civilization and we chinese civilization. And we can even more miserable than you, we almost have been broken in all respects, because - CCP, we come back. Frankly, look at the point of view of Muslim member, it is a familiar feeling in history.It seems that yesterday's history on your side, even if the content is different, but its essence is the same.

I have a question, friend, how you look at the secularization?

I find a system characterized by religious and legal pluralism more to my taste.

As for the case about Mr.Hui that you're talking about : Yes, such instances are very much present in Muslim societies, including my own extended family, and this is a perfect example of the intellectual rot that I was talking about. The Philosophers that I mentioned in my previous posts were all polymaths credited with some of the most excellent scientific researches of their time. For example, Ibn Khaldun, a philosopher and theologian is often credited as the father of sociology. Avicenna's 14 volume 'Laws of Medicine' was taught as early as the 18th century and Averroe's is accredited with coining the first known principle of 'inertia'. Alas parallels of these scholars can't be found in the Muslim World since Our decline because we stopped our pursuit of learning.

In contemporary times, the Muslim poet and philosopher Iqbal, tried to address this intellectual decline when he wrote his 'Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam' in which he tried to argued that learning, inquisitiveness and critical thinking are the very cornerstones of Islam and we need to rekindle Islamic Scholarship and set examples of academic excellence once more otherwise this dilapidated state that Muslims find themselves in, isn't going to improve anytime soon. Unfortunately no one significant picked up from Iqbal and we're still at ground zero.

 

[rabia kashmiri]

religion is problem for you?

 

[huzihaidao12]

Chinese civilization is a nation, we are one, we are a big ship, so we want to accept the new system, it is very complicated and painful. But Muslim civilization is not a country, so some countries quickly make some adjustments than in other countries such as Turkey and Iran, Pakistan. ( although not enough like Iran and Turkey ). Chinese Muslims also have this experience, HUI method similar to Turkey and Iran ( the age of Kings ), a thoroughly secular. But they have not lost faith, HUI has no problem to adapt to the industrial age, HUI adapted to have a condition, stability ( internal and external) and effective management ( sustainable economic development) , China we is a good assistant for protection. This is our experience, of course, it may not be adapted to other Muslim society.

---------- Post added at 11:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 PM ----------

religion is problem for you?

No, I respect all religions. But I also don't like some religious practice. Both Buddhist \ Christian \ Islam, that there is always something 's not love, but I still respect all religions, as long as it also respect me.

 

[huzihaidao12]

HUI is a national, friend . HUI is not a person, but China 's largest Muslim nation.

 

[Xestan]

No offence to Ataturk admirers, but Ataturk wasn't a great leader. He forcefully enforced his views and opinions on a whole
nation and took turkey away from her roots. These are deeds of dictators. It seems the CHP ideology still hasn't changed much.
Compare this with a leader like MA Jinnah. He was secular but he didn't forcefully enforced his views on Pakistan knowing
that it would be a disaster. Many people compare Jinnah with Ataturk but Jinnah unlike Ataturk was truly a great leader.

Lets not bring in another controversy, Jinnah wasn't secular at all. I say it with full confidence and there's enough proof from history to prove him otherwise. Like Allama Iqbal, in last part of his life, when Pakistan movement was at peak, he was transformed from a secular man into a religious person, plenty of evidence to prove it as I said. Go through his speeches, unlike Attaturk, he always emphasized on governing Pakistan with the principles of Islam and preserving the Islamic ideology etc etc.

I obviously disagree with Attaturk's decision of abolishing of Khilafah, but at the same time, I don't disrespect him, as he's respectable for majority of my Turk brothers

Now coming back to the topic, I think, what we need to look at is, where the basic problems are, tbh, if you stay unbiased, you'll realize, religion is NOT the problem, but the solution, Islam provides solutions for the humanity.

Talking about Pakistan, if Islam in true form is enforced, I am sure, injustice, violence and corruption will be wiped off of our land.

We need to study what exactly Islam commands us to do, forget Mullahs, why can't we study on our own, at some stage I believe Turkey will have to reconsider its secular constitution as well, time's changing.

At the end of the day, what I believe, for Muslims, Qur'an and Hadith remains superior to anything, and that's where our salvation is.

 

[Armstrong]

Chinese civilization is a nation, we are one, we are a big ship, so we want to accept the new system, it is very complicated and painful. But Muslim civilization is not a country, so some countries quickly make some adjustments than in other countries such as Turkey and Iran, Pakistan. ( although not enough like Iran and Turkey ). Chinese Muslims also have this experience, HUI method similar to Turkey and Iran ( the age of Kings ), a thoroughly secular. But they have not lost faith, HUI has no problem to adapt to the industrial age, HUI adapted to have a condition, stability ( internal and external) and effective management ( sustainable economic development, China ) is a good assistant for protection. This is our experience, of course, it may not be adapted to other Muslim society.

---------- Post added at 11:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 PM ----------



No, I respect all religions. But I also don't like some religious practice. Both Buddhist \ Christian \ Islam, that there is always something 's not love, but I still respect all religions, as long as it also respect me.

Indeed the modern day concept of a nation state has completely changed the paradigms of ages past and Hui should be loyal citizens of PRC doing everything for the collective good of the country. Plus wherever you have good governance and people have the opportunity to live decent lives...no clash of civilization will occur, otherwise its not just the Islamist but also Maoists, LTTEs, Kurds and a bunch of other separatists that are going to pop up and make trouble.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Indeed the modern day concept of a nation state has completely changed the paradigms of ages past and Hui should be loyal citizens of PRC doing everything for the collective good of the country. Plus wherever you have good governance and people have the opportunity to live decent lives...no clash of civilization will occur, otherwise its not just the Islamist but also Maoists, LTTEs, Kurds and a bunch of other separatists that are going to pop up and make trouble.

Maybe you misunderstood, I have not blamed for Muslims, as you said, some separatist does not limit in the Muslim. I didn't take the blame here. It is a rare opportunity to do an exchange, so I share my point of view, maybe he is not good enough, but at least it's some real thoughts from a chinese.