Islamic and Western thought in Turkey - A problem yet not solved

[huzihaidao12]

Frankly, I think the idea of Islam there are some problems, but it is not so important, because if the Muslims to adapt to a new era, then the thinking will not be a big problem, as Christian.

 

[huzihaidao12]

I am not sure why secularization is so central to your thesis. As you noted, the Iranian theocracy is managing to stay competitive in the industrial age so, clearly, secularism is not a prerequisite to industrial strength.

Yes, I focus on the secularization, but I prefer to call it industrialization or modernization . I do not value one word about the secularization, I value its value, it can provide an impetus for Muslims to adapt to ndustrialization, it can balance the traditional thinking ( traditional thinking still has his value, but requires a balance ).As for Iran, it is interesting enough, but I need to know more knowledge in Iran, then can conclude. Now, just to remind one thing, don't forget, Iran is also a completely secular time ( King Pahlavi era ), please allow me to make a reservation here. After all I need to know more knowledge in Iran.

 

[Developereo]

Yes, I focus on the secularization, but I prefer to call it industrialization or modernization . I do not value one word about the secularization, I value its value, it can provide an impetus for Muslims to adapt to ndustrialization, it can balance the traditional thinking ( traditional thinking still has his value, but requires a balance ).

Good points. We should probably bring the discussion back to Turkey, since that was the OP's focus. Turkey is bouncing back from Ataturk's extreme secularism. Let's see if they, like Iran, can maintain industrial competitiveness when they restore religious freedom.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Good points. We should probably bring the discussion back to Turkey, since that was the OP's focus. Turkey is bouncing back from Ataturk's extreme secularism. Let's see if they, like Iran, can maintain industrial competitiveness when they restore religious freedom.

Yes, this is a rebound, it is interesting, you know have a strong secular forces in Turkey, a long-term secular society, there is no external threat, but it still has a rebound, which makes sensesufficient interest in either Turkey or Iran, I think they are very valuable for the Muslim adaptability.

 

[Saithan]

The only thing to worry is that this freedom may result in a plunge back to traditions that will take back parts of Turkey to the stone age. Which is not good for anyone. Perhaps a scenario that reminds of Israel could appear in Turkey, where the conservatives are pulling the strings, even though they're a minority.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

...Turkey is bouncing back from Ataturk's extreme secularism. Let's see if they, like Iran, can maintain industrial competitiveness when they restore religious freedom.

Iran lost national and religious competitiveness in my view, giving rise to a hypocritical society.

Turkey's current leadership has been considerably more wise and tolerant.

---------- Post added at 10:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------

The only thing to worry is that this freedom may result in a plunge back to traditions that will take back parts of Turkey to the stone age. Which is not good for anyone. Perhaps a scenario that reminds of Israel could appear in Turkey, where the conservatives are pulling the strings, even though they're a minority.

Weren't the same traditions in pervasive practice while your country was a political, economic and to an extent, scientific powerhouse. We can strongly argue those traditions made it that.

Myopia doesn't become you my friend Sait Han.

 

[Saithan]

[/COLOR]
Weren't the same traditions in pervasive practice while your country was a political, economic and to an extent, scientific powerhouse. We can strongly argue those traditions made it that.

Myopia doesn't become you my friend Sait Han.

Sorry I think maybe I wasn't clear enough. I was actually refering to the far eastern parts of Turkey where traditions are very strong, and even though I respect traditions, there are some traditions I'd rather see die out. Such things as men sitting at cafe's drinking tea and wasting time. Or where old men marry a young girls (age below 18), or where girls aren't sent to school, but stay home to learn how to be a wife...

It's that kind of thing I hope will die out.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

...there are some traditions I'd rather see die out. Such things as men sitting at cafe's drinking tea and wasting time.
...

All of southern Europe sits around in a similar fashion? Do you want people to be satisfied with their lives, or people to increase your national productivity by working all they hours they can like a communist country? Your leadership's decision.

...Or where old men marry a young girls (age below 18), or where girls aren't sent to school, but stay home to learn how to be a wife...

did you ask those women who train to be wives and those old men who marry them whether it's what they want? I'd let them if they did.

 

[Developereo]

All of southern Europe sits around in a similar fashion? Do you want people to be satisfied with their lives, or people to increase your national productivity by working all they hours they can like a communist country? Your leadership's decision.

Agree with this part.

did you ask those women who train to be wives and those old men who marry them whether it's what they want? I'd let them if they did.

Disagree. Avoiding school or marrying too young are not "freedoms". There are some things where tradition is simply wrong and modernity must be enforced.

It is considered a basic human right to receive a primary education. Anything that denies that right to a child -- parents refusing school or forcing marriage -- should not be allowed. A minor, by definition, does not have the capacity to "consent" to such actions.

 

[Saithan]

All of southern Europe sits around in a similar fashion? Do you want people to be satisfied with their lives, or people to increase your national productivity by working all they hours they can like a communist country? Your leadership's decision.


did you ask those women who train to be wives and those old men who marry them whether it's what they want? I'd let them if they did.

But isn't that why southern Europe has the economic problems, because they aren't productive enough. Imagine the potential all those people have, if they'd received an education (an undergraduate degree or something) they'd probably feel restless sitting down all day in a cafe.

I think we need the "industrial" mindset for those people, something to activate their dulled minds.

Anyone who's suffering from poverty would accept a condition that's better than what they have. I agree with Developereo, but I'd like to extend that to include compulsory schooling until the age of 18. primary, secondary + vocational/high school that's how I think it should be.

 

[Developereo]

I agree with Developereo, but I'd like to extend that to include compulsory schooling until the age of 18. primary, secondary + vocational/high school that's how I think it should be.

That's what I meant. Education up to college level should be mandatory for all, boys and girls.

 

[huzihaidao12]

The only thing to worry is that this freedom may result in a plunge back to traditions that will take back parts of Turkey to the stone age. Which is not good for anyone. Perhaps a scenario that reminds of Israel could appear in Turkey, where the conservatives are pulling the strings, even though they're a minority.

Do not need to worry too much, I think, as I said, secularization, this is a false name, it's real name is industrialization. Your reform is radical, cutting like a surgery, it is the strongest effect in a short period of time to promote Muslim societies industrialize, but still, this resistance is strong, because the Muslim community still remain in the agricultural civilization, the original after the operation, also requires a detailed and sustained nursed back to health, but Turkey's secular failure at this point. Add the impact of the external environment, so there is a rebound, but nothing, because Turkey has to taste with enough sweetness for industrialization, it will not stop, like I said, secularization, this is a false name, it's real name is industrialized .As long as Turkey's industrialization not be disrupted, this secularization - the transformation of Muslim societies to adapt to industrialization, it is inevitable. Like some Turkish members have different views, but they also would not object to Turkey's industrialization, which is well proved.

Can only say that this is a natural historical process, of course, including a rebound.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Iran lost national and religious competitiveness in my view, giving rise to a hypocritical society.

Turkey's current leadership has been considerably more wise and tolerant.

---------- Post added at 10:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------


Weren't the same traditions in pervasive practice while your country was a political, economic and to an extent, scientific powerhouse. We can strongly argue those traditions made it that.

Myopia doesn't become you my friend Sait Han.

Please explain, I was able to know the reasons for your evaluation in Iran? In fact, I have a better evaluation in Iran than Turkey, for some reason.Their comparison is interesting, so I want to know more of your ideas in Iran.

 

[huzihaidao12]

My point of view, Iran and Turkey is the closest to success, for a Muslim society to adapt to industrialization, but that is only the "nearest" is still not entirely successful.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

Turkey has been living in this Dilemna for centuries. West or Islam? A country or people who could not have created his own culture is destined to suffer from this conflict.

i wish to write further but the lack of my Will and lack of my English capacity hinders my effort. Turkish Anatolia experienced different cultural conflicts throughout the history.

i advise the author and commentors here to read from the beginning starting with Babai Revolts, Sheikh Bedreddin revolt, then Celali revolts. Then you ll realise the economic Class based problems of Turkish Anatolia.

Pro western so called Ataturkists which understood Kemalism wrong created big monster called Arabi Islamists. Neither one is native to Anatolia, and people started to clash over outsider ideologies.

The clashes of 60's and 70's among youth and military coup of 1980 destroyed two native ideologies, Turkish socialism and Turkish nationalism. now we have westerners, and Pro arabs. Thats the challenge of my generation and myself.