Is Pak the national self-expression of the Indus Valley or is it remnant of N.Indian Islamic empires

[El Sidd]

Another Nazi thread borne out of confusion of utter destruction of nation state doctrine in India.

 

[gwangju.khan]

So great you understand...So many donot understand the rise of nationalistic racial Germanic neopaganism..Race and religion are forever intertwined...A religion without a racial linkage is like a gravy without meat

Actually I don't see how you use them as evidence because the rise of neo-paganism only showed pseudo religion and no genuine theology or heritage was born

Islam will dominate all of them tho Insha Allah

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Actually I don't see how you use them as evidence because the rise of neo-paganism only showed pseudo religion and no genuine theology or heritage was born

Islam will dominate all of them tho Insha Allah

Germanic and Norse paganism had real philosophy and theology when the Germanic tribes or the vikings were rampaging through out Europe and even Muslim Lands (in case of Vikings)...Once the modern Nordic and Germanic people are able to reconnect with the Old Gods, the native religions will flourish again and become the predominant philosophies in these lands...Powerful Magic, spiritual asceticism and sorcery is being undertaken by many Nordics to bridge a connection with the Old Northern Gods

 

[gwangju.khan]

Christian missionaries are willing to die to keep their faith, Sikh Gurus during Muslim persecution in Punjab, Buddhist monks against injustice. Even now numerous activists from Islamic movements and scholars have gone to prison and hanged by their own rulers during political crises

Not sure any white person is willing to die for his re-imagined gods created for racial pride

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Christian missionaries are willing to die to keep their faith, Sikh Gurus during Muslim persecution in Punjab, Buddhist monks against injustice. Even now numerous activists from Islamic movements and scholars have gone to prison and hanged by their own rulers during political crises

Not sure any white person is willing to die for his re-imagined gods created for racial pride

once the divine spark is recreated they will...

 

[Hamza913]

That's is another lie

Read any biographical account or hadith collection, they literally all agree on the matter.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

That's is another lie because he wasn't from a rich background he was a shepherd who only became rich by marrying a rich woman and no one would make him a king but they disagreed on his new arab political ideology even one of them said leave him to the arabs if they kill him than it's done and if he wins than his victory will be your victory. When the Muslims were defeated in the beginning of hunayn abu sufian was happy bin safwan bin ummya was angry and he said he wouldn't like his own tribal brother muhammad losing to the tribe of hawazin so even if muhammad had different religion while hawazin was pagan like quraish they still sided with muhammad because he was their kin and for them tribe is more important than religion.

beautiful--------------------->the tribe/race has always been more important than religion, even many enlightened Pakistani PDFers would agree on this....Only when the race and the religion becomes one, you have something utter magnificent, something transcendent

 

[untitled]

beautiful--------------------->the tribe/race has always been more important than religion

Only thing beautiful in @dani92 statement was the way summed up the attitude of pre-Islamic tribal Arabia. Many of them were followers of their self made gods along with the rituals they had made to please these deities.
These tribes also fought bloody and useless battles for generations just because they believed they had been wronged by the other side and it was absolutely necessary to teach a hard lesson to them so that they prove they were a superior tribe

It is ABSOLUTE JUSTICE which is more important than any race or tribal supremacy intertwined with a regional pseudo-religious philosophy.

Powerful Magic, spiritual asceticism and sorcery is being undertaken by many Nordics to bridge a connection with the Old Northern Gods

once the divine spark is recreated they will...

What kind of atheism do you follow?

Brilliant...you get it Sir!!!!! This is why Hindus donot have any problem with atheists

Yes I get that but what I don't understand is the weird fascination of many so-called atheists (Indian and non Indian) have with man made deities. Maybe atheism is a stepping stone in to paganism

since both of them originated in India

Why are you restricting God's power to a geographical entity. Did God make only Indians? Are non-Indians creations of a different lesser god?

Buddhism was the first missionary religion on the planet

Yes but they were limited by the travel technology of the time and could expand only eastwards toward Indo-China and Japan. Despite all the media coverage they get nowadays I don't see them making a major come back especially since they have been routed/subdued in India, their point of origin.

That China has Buddhism as its primary religion along with Taoism is entirely the doing of Pakistan

Few years ago there was a thread titled something like "Chinese more Interested in encouraging their children to take scientific knowledge the religious knowledge". All the Chinese and Indian posters were jumping up and down saying, China is indeed doing the right thing. If this is indeed the case then Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism are already on their way out in China. They probably take Karl Marx more seriously than any of their local philosophies. The "damage" has been done if they are not teaching the future generations.

most probably Pak will do the same thing to China vis-a-vis Islam...CPEC will bring more change in China than in Pakistan

Well if history is any guide then yes. Last time the Chinese/Mongolian hordes ventured into Muslim lands, they ended up converting to Islam in a few generations time

=================================================

Having said that, the real title of this thread should be:
"Should Pakistan carry on with the excessive superstitious baggage of the people which lived here before they converted to Islam just because we share geography with them or instead look for the good values and adopt them from any civilization, past or present (including India) irrespective of it's geographical location since we are all created by the same God

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Only thing beautiful in @dani92 statement was the way summed up the attitude of pre-Islamic tribal Arabia. Many of them were followers of their self made gods along with the rituals they had made to please these deities.
These tribes also fought bloody and useless battles for generations just because they believed they had been wronged by the other side and it was absolutely necessary to teach a hard lesson to them so that they prove they were a superior tribe

It is ABSOLUTE JUSTICE which is more important than any race or tribal supremacy intertwined with a regional pseudo-religious philosophy.



What kind of atheism do you follow?

Yes I get that but what I don't understand is the weird fascination of many so-called atheists (Indian and non Indian) have with man made deities. Maybe atheism is a stepping stone in to paganism

Why are you restricting God's power to a geographical entity. Did God make only Indians? Are non-Indians creations of a different lesser god?


Yes but they were limited by the travel technology of the time and could expand only eastwards toward Indo-China and Japan. Despite all the media coverage they get nowadays I don't see them making a major come back especially since they have been routed/subdued in India, their point of origin.


Few years ago there was a thread titled something like "Chinese more Interested in encouraging their children to take scientific knowledge the religious knowledge". All the Chinese and Indian posters were jumping up and down saying, China is indeed doing the right thing. If this is indeed the case then Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism are already on their way out in China. They probably take Karl Marx more seriously than any of their local philosophies. The "damage" has been done if they are not teaching the future generations.

Well if history is any guide then yes. Last time the Chinese/Mongolian hordes ventured into Muslim lands, they ended up converting to Islam in a few generations time

=================================================

Having said that, the real title of this thread should be:
"Should Pakistan carry on with the excessive superstitious baggage of the people which lived here before they converted to Islam just because we share geography with them or instead look for the good values and adopt them from any civilization, past or present (including India) irrespective of it's geographical location since we are all created by the same God

it was meant tongue-in-cheek ...I will expand on my answers later

 

[SIPRA]

What kind of atheism do you follow?

I am about 62 years and I have yet to see a truly pure and unadulterated atheist, or even an agnostic, without any trace of early indoctrination.

it was meant tongue-in-cheek ...I will expand on my answers later

Array Bhai Gangu: Aap her cheez aagay per daal daitay ho.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I am about 62 years and I have yet to see a truly pure and unadulterated atheist, or even an agnostic, without any trace of early indoctrination.



Array Bhai Gangu: Aap her cheez aagay per daal daitay ho.

The answer will cut close to my heart as an Indian, that's why needed a few minutes to reflect

Only thing beautiful in @dani92 statement was the way summed up the attitude of pre-Islamic tribal Arabia. Many of them were followers of their self made gods along with the rituals they had made to please these deities.
These tribes also fought bloody and useless battles for generations just because they believed they had been wronged by the other side and it was absolutely necessary to teach a hard lesson to them so that they prove they were a superior tribe

It is ABSOLUTE JUSTICE which is more important than any race or tribal supremacy intertwined with a regional pseudo-religious philosophy.

well a Israeli Tribal War God ascended to become primary God of many people...if one is a TRUE Theist, he will come to some sort of Deist abstraction where there might have been a non-physical Creative force that gave birth to the Universe, but is uninvolved in its affairs and the Universe runs as a self sufficient simulation....Giving intention (to create the Universe), personality, mind to an entity/ies is way too anthropomorphic for my taste

The only proper theistic religion that ever piqued my interest were the ancient Marcionites who claimed that the God of Old Testament was an evil God, and Jesus Christ was sent by the real God to liberate people from his clutches...OT is very violent and very shallow when it comes to introspection,self-reflection, etc

What kind of atheism do you follow?

My sort of atheism is very simple ...I believe even though physics knows very little about the Universe in the sub-atomic scale and also very little about the Universe huge galactic cluster scales, the physics of the Universe in the human scale or earthly scale is COMPLETEY SETTLED.....There will never be any law that upends the laws of motion and the equations that come with it, things like that

Given that's the case I can say for certain:

Supernatural miracles that break the laws of physics never happened in history and will also never happen in the future..This means All the Hindu texts that talk of fantastical stuffs are invalid for me, Yoga Sutras that claim supernatural superpowers for practitioners are invalid for me....Huge chunk of Buddhism is invalid for me...and of course other monohteistic religious books that claim supernatural superpowers happening in the Earthly realm are invalid for me

Secondly, I didnot exist before I was born and I won't exist after I die

I am more interested in driving home above two practical realistic points then getting into convoluted metaphysical debates


If there is still room left for theism after all this, then it's up in the air...May be somebody's prayer might get answered that doesnot upend reality (like a poor student passing exams due to prayers or missing accident in the last second)-------->non-theists chalking these events up to pure coincidence and the believer attributing these events to the power of prayer..

I personally donot believe in the power of prayer given what people of India had to go through in history at the hands of the invaders....I am not and will not rule out a Creator or more likely an impersonal Creative Force, but its not relevant for my day to day life

Yes I get that but what I don't understand is the weird fascination of many so-called atheists (Indian and non Indian) have with man made deities. Maybe atheism is a stepping stone in to paganism

All Gods are man-made ...An ancient Israeli Tribal War God from first millenium BCE ascended to become the God of many people across all continents save for Antartica ....

The only sort of God that can be taken seriously is the Platonic World of Idealized Forms

The only man-made things that are perfect are the things of the nuos---->what am I alluding to? Mathematics ...Mathematics is not self-evident in nature but it is always there, only waiting to be discovered by an intelligent species ...In a way the same is true for the laws of Physics, Chemistry and other subjects (mathematical laws of biology Fisherian runaway etc.)

But mathematics is different--->How? Mathematics doesnot NEED This Universe to exist...see the laws of Physics, Chemistry are valid only in this Universe....in a parallel Universe there may be lesser or more fundamental forces of Physics...and buiding on that different sort of chemistry.....But the quadratic equation is the same in Heaven, Hell or any other parallel realms (if they exist)

Heck even Computer Science is dependent on predictable behaviour of electrons of this Universe

If there is any perfection, transcendence, immortality to be sought, it lies in Mathematics and mathematics only

Why are you restricting God's power to a geographical entity. Did God make only Indians? Are non-Indians creations of a different lesser god?

No matter which God you worshipped in ancient times, you didnot exist outside of your tribe ...You cannot sustain yourself with prayer alone if you were kicked out of your tribe...Your tribe needed the lands that sustained them ...and the condensed, idealized form of the collective survival instinct of the tribe is the God or divine philosophy of the tribe....What is the Old Testament but the narrative of the Jewish race and its struggle for survival in the midst of powerful bloodthirsty neighbours...and the Old Testament is the motherlode of monotheism ...Race is God, God is Race--->even the foremost treatise on monotheism points to that fact...you cannot have one without the other...This may not be apparent to us as we are all deracinated and have certain level of left liberalism baked into us, but as civilization collapses around us this will become ever more evident...You need blood, you need clan, you need a patch of land, you need a collective tribal survival instinct (God) to make it through another day

All the great religious books of the world base themselves in a certain Earthly geography.....if you think God and religion is sacred, please accept that Geography is also sacred...else Mecca and Medina would have been as important to Islam as some rocky outcrop in the middle of the Pacific

@Indus Pakistan

Yes but they were limited by the travel technology of the time and could expand only eastwards toward Indo-China and Japan. Despite all the media coverage they get nowadays I don't see them making a major come back especially since they have been routed/subdued in India, their point of origin.

Fact remains Ancient Pakistanis took Buddhism even more seriously than Modern Pakistanis take Islam..Ancient Pakistanis were some of the greatest missionaries known to man...Udayana(Swat Valley) and Padmasambhava comes to mind...Zealous missionary is a tag that has been taken over by South Koreans vis-a-vis Christianity...You donot see anymore itinerant Pakistanis travelling to the West with the sole purpose of spreading Islam among whites (as opposed to catering to Pak diaspora)...where are the Pakistani Muslim preachers in Latin America or Polynesia?

Ancient Pakistanis civilized entire Far East Asia through Buddhism

Buddhism supplanted Hinduism once across India, there is a high chance it will do it again...India has much to gain from the prestige associated with being the birthplace of Buddhism and all its masters...

Few years ago there was a thread titled something like "Chinese more Interested in encouraging their children to take scientific knowledge the religious knowledge". All the Chinese and Indian posters were jumping up and down saying, China is indeed doing the right thing. If this is indeed the case then Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism are already on their way out in China. They probably take Karl Marx more seriously than any of their local philosophies. The "damage" has been done if they are not teaching the future generations.

Well if history is any guide then yes. Last time the Chinese/Mongolian hordes ventured into Muslim lands, they ended up converting to Islam in a few generations time

Whatever philosophy takes hold in a land is a matter of evolution for any outside viewer, and is a matter of collective endeavour for any insider/stake-holder

But the Mongolians who who managed to outlast all other Mongolic branches are the ones that stayed true to their ancestral beliefs..the others were cut down in a few centuries by Christians or fellow Muslims inspite of converting to Islam and thinking Islam will save them
Genghis Khan would be dismayed at those who didnot believe in Tengriism, didnot believe in the power of the Eternal Sky, didnot consult the Shamanistic visions

Again Race is God and God is Race...

=================================================

Having said that, the real title of this thread should be:
"Should Pakistan carry on with the excessive superstitious baggage of the people which lived here before they converted to Islam just because we share geography with them or instead look for the good values and adopt them from any civilization, past or present (including India) irrespective of it's geographical location since we are all created by the same God

If you are talking of the same God that created everybody then we are again in the territory of abstracted Deism and the beginnings of secularism---->not unlike the founding fathers of the United States

I am of the opinion that having an indigenous home grown philosophy (even if its spiritual or semi-mystical) is helpful for consolidation of the people

Heck even North Korean Juche serves that purpose


@untitled @SIPRA ------------->Answer now complete

@Mangus Ortus Novem ---> you may find something of interest here

@Nilu Pule ---->This is a better exposition of my deeply held convictions

@dani92 ---->may be you might find something relevant to you here

 

[Vapnope]

Since Pakistan is a predominantly a muslims country (97% muslims), Pakistanis share an almost same set of moral code, same religious festivals and rituals. Islam continue to be a factor in connecting Pakistanis however what you would realise is that newer generation do not feel the same about Muslims in Afghanistan, India and Bangladesh. So within the country, this remains a factor however not for the outsiders. Which brings us to a question that is that our culture mixed with religion that binds us? As other posters quoted earlier that we are many nations/ethnicities joined into one and religion along with nationalism becomes the only shared similarity. We aren't a homogeneous group of people hence the problem.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I am about 62 years and I have yet to see a truly pure and unadulterated atheist, or even an agnostic, without any trace of early indoctrination.



Array Bhai Gangu: Aap her cheez aagay per daal daitay ho.

The answer will cut close to my heart as an Indian, that's why needed a few minutes to reflect

Only thing beautiful in @dani92 statement was the way summed up the attitude of pre-Islamic tribal Arabia. Many of them were followers of their self made gods along with the rituals they had made to please these deities.
These tribes also fought bloody and useless battles for generations just because they believed they had been wronged by the other side and it was absolutely necessary to teach a hard lesson to them so that they prove they were a superior tribe

It is ABSOLUTE JUSTICE which is more important than any race or tribal supremacy intertwined with a regional pseudo-religious philosophy.

well a Israeli Tribal War God ascended to become primary God of many people...if one is a TRUE Theist, he will come to some sort of Deist abstraction where there might have been a non-physical Creative force that gave birth to the Universe, but is uninvolved in its affairs and the Universe runs as a self sufficient simulation....Giving intention (to create the Universe), personality, mind to an entity/ies is way too anthropomorphic for my taste

The only proper theistic religion that ever piqued my interest were the ancient Marcionites who claimed that the God of Old Testament was an evil God, and Jesus Christ was sent by the real God to liberate people from his clutches...OT is very violent and very shallow when it comes to introspection,self-reflection, etc

What kind of atheism do you follow?

My sort of atheism is very simple ...I believe even though physics knows very little about the Universe in the sub-atomic scale and also very little about the Universe huge galactic cluster scales, the physics of the Universe in the human scale or earthly scale is COMPLETEY SETTLED.....There will never be any law that upends the laws of motion and the equations that come with it, things like that

Given that's the case I can say for certain:

Supernatural miracles that break the laws of physics never happened in history and will also never happen in the future..This means All the Hindu texts that talk of fantastical stuffs are invalid for me, Yoga Sutras that claim supernatural superpowers for practitioners are invalid for me....Huge chunk of Buddhism is invalid for me...and of course other monohteistic religious books that claim supernatural superpowers happening in the Earthly realm are invalid for me

Secondly, I didnot exist before I was born and I won't exist after I die

I am more interested in driving home above two practical realistic points then getting into convoluted metaphysical debates


If there is still room left for theism after all this, then it's up in the air...May be somebody's prayer might get answered that doesnot upend reality (like a poor student passing exams due to prayers or missing accident in the last second)-------->non-theists chalking these events up to pure coincidence and the believer attributing these events to the power of prayer..

I personally donot believe in the power of prayer given what people of India had to go through in history at the hands of the invaders....I am not and will not rule out a Creator or more likely an impersonal Creative Force, but its not relevant for my day to day life

Yes I get that but what I don't understand is the weird fascination of many so-called atheists (Indian and non Indian) have with man made deities. Maybe atheism is a stepping stone in to paganism

All Gods are man-made ...An ancient Israeli Tribal War God from first millenium BCE ascended to become the God of many people across all continents save for Antartica ....

The only sort of God that can be taken seriously is the Platonic World of Idealized Forms

The only man-made things that are perfect are the things of the nuos---->what am I alluding to? Mathematics ...Mathematics is not self-evident in nature but it is always there, only waiting to be discovered by an intelligent species ...In a way the same is true for the laws of Physics, Chemistry and other subjects (mathematical laws of biology Fisherian runaway etc.)

But mathematics is different--->How? Mathematics doesnot NEED This Universe to exist...see the laws of Physics, Chemistry are valid only in this Universe....in a parallel Universe there may be lesser or more fundamental forces of Physics...and buiding on that different sort of chemistry.....But the quadratic equation is the same in Heaven, Hell or any other parallel realms (if they exist)

Heck even Computer Science is dependent on predictable behaviour of electrons of this Universe

If there is any perfection, transcendence, immortality to be sought, it lies in Mathematics and mathematics only

Why are you restricting God's power to a geographical entity. Did God make only Indians? Are non-Indians creations of a different lesser god?

No matter which God you worshipped in ancient times, you didnot exist outside of your tribe ...You cannot sustain yourself with prayer alone if you were kicked out of your tribe...Your tribe needed the lands that sustained them ...and the condensed, idealized form of the collective survival instinct of the tribe is the God or divine philosophy of the tribe....What is the Old Testament but the narrative of the Jewish race and its struggle for survival in the midst of powerful bloodthirsty neighbours...and the Old Testament is the motherlode of monotheism ...Race is God, God is Race--->even the foremost treatise on monotheism points to that fact...you cannot have one without the other...This may not be apparent to us as we are all deracinated and have certain level of left liberalism baked into us, but as civilization collapses around us this will become ever more evident...You need blood, you need clan, you need a patch of land, you need a collective tribal survival instinct (God) to make it through another day

All the great religious books of the world base themselves in a certain Earthly geography.....if you think God and religion is sacred, please accept that Geography is also sacred...else Mecca and Medina would have been as important to Islam as some rocky outcrop in the middle of the Pacific

@Indus Pakistan

Yes but they were limited by the travel technology of the time and could expand only eastwards toward Indo-China and Japan. Despite all the media coverage they get nowadays I don't see them making a major come back especially since they have been routed/subdued in India, their point of origin.

Fact remains Ancient Pakistanis took Buddhism even more seriously than Modern Pakistanis take Islam..Ancient Pakistanis were some of the greatest missionaries known to man...Udayana(Swat Valley) and Padmasambhava comes to mind...Zealous missionary is a tag that has been taken over by South Koreans vis-a-vis Christianity...You donot see anymore itinerant Pakistanis travelling to the West with the sole purpose of spreading Islam among whites (as opposed to catering to Pak diaspora)...where are the Pakistani Muslim preachers in Latin America or Polynesia?

Ancient Pakistanis civilized entire Far East Asia through Buddhism

Buddhism supplanted Hinduism once across India, there is a high chance it will do it again...India has much to gain from the prestige associated with being the birthplace of Buddhism and all its masters...

Few years ago there was a thread titled something like "Chinese more Interested in encouraging their children to take scientific knowledge the religious knowledge". All the Chinese and Indian posters were jumping up and down saying, China is indeed doing the right thing. If this is indeed the case then Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism are already on their way out in China. They probably take Karl Marx more seriously than any of their local philosophies. The "damage" has been done if they are not teaching the future generations.

Well if history is any guide then yes. Last time the Chinese/Mongolian hordes ventured into Muslim lands, they ended up converting to Islam in a few generations time

Whatever philosophy takes hold in a land is a matter of evolution for any outside viewer, and is a matter of collective endeavour for any insider/stake-holder

But the Mongolians who who managed to outlast all other Mongolic branches are the ones that stayed true to their ancestral beliefs..the others were cut down in a few centuries by Christians or fellow Muslims inspite of converting to Islam and thinking Islam will save them
Genghis Khan would be dismayed at those who didnot believe in Tengriism, didnot believe in the power of the Eternal Sky, didnot consult the Shamanistic visions

Again Race is God and God is Race...

=================================================

Having said that, the real title of this thread should be:
"Should Pakistan carry on with the excessive superstitious baggage of the people which lived here before they converted to Islam just because we share geography with them or instead look for the good values and adopt them from any civilization, past or present (including India) irrespective of it's geographical location since we are all created by the same God

If you are talking of the same God that created everybody then we are again in the territory of abstracted Deism and the beginnings of secularism---->not unlike the founding fathers of the United States

I am of the opinion that having an indigenous home grown philosophy (even if its spiritual or semi-mystical) is helpful for consolidation of the people

Heck even North Korean Juche serves that purpose


@untitled @SIPRA ------------->Answer now complete

@Mangus Ortus Novem ---> you may find something of interest here

@Nilu Pule ---->This is a better exposition of my deeply held convictions

@dani92 ---->may be you might find something relevant to you here

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

The answer will cut close to my heart as an Indian, that's why needed a few minutes to reflect



well a Israeli Tribal War God ascended to become primary God of many people...if one is a TRUE Theist, he will come to some sort of Deist abstraction where there might have been a non-physical Creative force that gave birth to the Universe, but is uninvolved in its affairs and the Universe runs as a self sufficient simulation....Giving intention (to create the Universe), personality, mind to an entity/ies is way too anthropomorphic for my taste

The only proper theistic religion that ever piqued my interest were the ancient Marcionites who claimed that the God of Old Testament was an evil God, and Jesus Christ was sent by the real God to liberate people from his clutches...OT is very violent and very shallow when it comes to introspection,self-reflection, etc




My sort of atheism is very simple ...I believe even though physics knows very little about the Universe in the sub-atomic scale and also very little about the Universe huge galactic cluster scales, the physics of the Universe in the human scale or earthly scale is COMPLETEY SETTLED.....There will never be any law that upends the laws of motion and the equations that come with it, things like that

Given that's the case I can say for certain:

Supernatural miracles that break the laws of physics never happened in history and will also never happen in the future..This means All the Hindu texts that talk of fantastical stuffs are invalid for me, Yoga Sutras that claim supernatural superpowers for practitioners are invalid for me....Huge chunk of Buddhism is invalid for me...and of course other monohteistic religious books that claim supernatural superpowers happening in the Earthly realm are invalid for me

Secondly, I didnot exist before I was born and I won't exist after I die

I am more interested in driving home above two practical realistic points then getting into convoluted metaphysical debates


If there is still room left for theism after all this, then it's up in the air...May be somebody's prayer might get answered that doesnot upend reality (like a poor student passing exams due to prayers or missing accident in the last second)-------->non-theists chalking these events up to pure coincidence and the believer attributing these events to the power of prayer..

I personally donot believe in the power of prayer given what people of India had to go through in history at the hands of the invaders....I am not and will not rule out a Creator or more likely an impersonal Creative Force, but its not relevant for my day to day life




All Gods are man-made ...An ancient Israeli Tribal War God from first millenium BCE ascended to become the God of many people across all continents save for Antartica ....

The only sort of God that can be taken seriously is the Platonic World of Idealized Forms

The only man-made things that are perfect are the things of the nuos---->what am I alluding to? Mathematics ...Mathematics is not self-evident in nature but it is always there, only waiting to be discovered by an intelligent species ...In a way the same is true for the laws of Physics, Chemistry and other subjects (mathematical laws of biology Fisherian runaway etc.)

But mathematics is different--->How? Mathematics doesnot NEED This Universe to exist...see the laws of Physics, Chemistry are valid only in this Universe....in a parallel Universe there may be lesser or more fundamental forces of Physics...and buiding on that different sort of chemistry.....But the quadratic equation is the same in Heaven, Hell or any other parallel realms (if they exist)

Heck even Computer Science is dependent on predictable behaviour of electrons of this Universe

If there is any perfection, transcendence, immortality to be sought, it lies in Mathematics and mathematics only




No matter which God you worshipped in ancient times, you didnot exist outside of your tribe ...You cannot sustain yourself with prayer alone if you were kicked out of your tribe...Your tribe needed the lands that sustained them ...and the condensed, idealized form of the collective survival instinct of the tribe is the God or divine philosophy of the tribe....What is the Old Testament but the narrative of the Jewish race and its struggle for survival in the midst of powerful bloodthirsty neighbours...and the Old Testament is the motherlode of monotheism ...Race is God, God is Race--->even the foremost treatise on monotheism points to that fact...you cannot have one without the other...This may not be apparent to us as we are all deracinated and have certain level of left liberalism baked into us, but as civilization collapses around us this will become ever more evident...You need blood, you need clan, you need a patch of land, you need a collective tribal survival instinct (God) to make it through another day

All the great religious books of the world base themselves in a certain Earthly geography.....if you think God and religion is sacred, please accept that Geography is also sacred...else Mecca and Medina would have been as important to Islam as some rocky outcrop in the middle of the Pacific

@Indus Pakistan




Fact remains Ancient Pakistanis took Buddhism even more seriously than Modern Pakistanis take Islam..Ancient Pakistanis were some of the greatest missionaries known to man...Udayana(Swat Valley) and Padmasambhava comes to mind...Zealous missionary is a tag that has been taken over by South Koreans vis-a-vis Christianity...You donot see anymore itinerant Pakistanis travelling to the West with the sole purpose of spreading Islam among whites (as opposed to catering to Pak diaspora)...where are the Pakistani Muslim preachers in Latin America or Polynesia?

Ancient Pakistanis civilized entire Far East Asia through Buddhism

Buddhism supplanted Hinduism once across India, there is a high chance it will do it again...India has much to gain from the prestige associated with being the birthplace of Buddhism and all its masters...




Whatever philosophy takes hold in a land is a matter of evolution for any outside viewer, and is a matter of collective endeavour for any insider/stake-holder

But the Mongolians who who managed to outlast all other Mongolic branches are the ones that stayed true to their ancestral beliefs..the others were cut down in a few centuries by Christians or fellow Muslims inspite of converting to Islam and thinking Islam will save them
Genghis Khan would be dismayed at those who didnot believe in Tengriism, didnot believe in the power of the Eternal Sky, didnot consult the Shamanistic visions

Again Race is God and God is Race...



If you are talking of the same God that created everybody then we are again in the territory of abstracted Deism and the beginnings of secularism---->not unlike the founding fathers of the United States

I am of the opinion that having an indigenous home grown philosophy (even if its spiritual or semi-mystical) is helpful for consolidation of the people

Heck even North Korean Juche serves that purpose


@untitled @SIPRA ------------->Answer now complete

@Mangus Ortus Novem ---> you may find something of interest here

@Nilu Pule ---->This is a better exposition of my deeply held convictions

@dani92 ---->may be you might find something relevant to you here

So, without delving into your deeper void... filled perhaps by abstruse vocabulary. But going by the gist of it... you see an indifferent universe around you, one that runs on set principles and computable rules. Yet, when you see a being that seems indifferent to the otherwise proportionate nature around it... who like other nature existing around it seems to be very capable of causing unfathomable harm to first himself, surroundings and very nature it inhabits or beneficial work for welfare and wellbeing of himself and all around it... that right there is the riddle.
Your comprehension and using broad brush to color all in your understanding(inherent bias) obstructs a more enlightened approach. Such as translating in terms of gods of people, or spiritual and only human reflection on external stimuli/impulse circumvents God the creator of all.
Either way it is your struggle and a puzzle only you have to solve... make it easy on yourself.

 

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I have yet to see a truly pure and unadulterated atheist,

According to my understanding atheists are of two types
1) One who is has a pretty nasty experience with religion or some religious people
2) One who is too embarrassed to defend the practices of his religion and or deities and only culturally wants to identify with his people

well a Israeli Tribal War God ascended to become primary God of many people

Disagree. He was never exclusively "Israeli" to begin with. He was the Lord Heavens. the Lord of Adam(AS), the Lord of Noah(AS) and Lord of Abraham(AS). It's mostly Jewish propaganda that says the Jews people were the first people to receive the message the word of God while they conveniently ignore the descendants of Ismail (AS) (Arabs) who were given the same message as they were. It was not until Moses was given the Torah that they started using the words God of Israel rather than God of Abraham. Monotheistic Arabs on the other kept praying to the God of Abraham(AS) until the Quran was revealed.

Also the Jews made a covenant with God not with the land of Israel. The covenant itself took place outside the land of Israel

All the great religious books of the world base themselves in a certain Earthly geography.....if you think God and religion is sacred, please accept that Geography is also sacred...else Mecca and Medina would have been as important to Islam as some rocky outcrop in the middle of the Pacific

Of course all religions make sacred certain parts of geography. My point was addressing your insistence on your version Hinduism which says the religious truth can only originate from India. This line of thinking I believe in a modern world is outdated and rightly reduces Hinduism to a India-centric supremacist philosophy akin to Nazism. On the other Islam which embraces all mankind under one God has produced saints and religious scholars from native populations from around the world including India and most of them were not even Arab

Ancient Pakistanis civilized entire Far East Asia through Buddhism

I can assure through Islam we will carry on the legacy of civilising the rest of the whole world, not just India or Far East (Inshallah). Why should we cling to a philosophy (Buddhism) which does not honour a god, has aspects of idol worship ingrained and can't even stand up to Hinduism in its home turf. We will stick with Islam which has a proven history since the beginning, of liberating mankind from it's self made tyrannical gods and ideas. Followers of the Islamic God (Jews, Christians and Muslims) have all been the movers and shakers of the world. I personally all believe all great civilizations of past that have made a lasting impact on history were monotheistic in origin. You can even find traces strict of monotheism in India through Arya Samaj in Hinduism. If I remember correctly Sigmund Freud himself accuses his fellow Jews of "borrowing" monotheism from the Ancient Egyptians. The very Egyptians that had many pagan gods and the Pharoah himself called himself a god. As I have stated earlier in this post the Israelites hardly needed an Introduction to monotheism so Frued's statement maybe partially correct (the Egyptian part). Hence I believe India (and China) will never achieve their true potential until they start until they start following the Abrahmic/Islamic teachings. Any progress these two country's make for now will be temporary and will be a minor blip in the grand scheme of things. Don't you already consider Islam a threat to your home made deities which of course you yourself refuse to believe in. Ever pondered the most of the accepted history of mankind has been written through a monotheistic lens and only recently pagan philosophies are once again rising are challenging this view of history.

I can assure you India will have a bright future ahead of herself but definitely not under Brahmin/Hindu rule

.You donot see anymore itinerant Pakistanis travelling to the West with the sole purpose of spreading Islam among whites (as opposed to catering to Pak diaspora)

where are the Pakistani Muslim preachers in Latin America or Polynesia?

I can assure there are plenty of Muslims Pakistani and otherwise doing Dawa around the world. You need to go out more. There are plenty of Mosques in Polynesia and Latin America too. Our job is to merely invite people to Islam not force with to convert with draconian hindutva laws like CAA. When the world is ready it will convert out of it's free will. Such an event would completely eclipse the Roman Empire's conversion to Christianity

The recent media attention the people of Sentinel Island did arouse my curiosity. In the 70s when Indian government tried to establish contact with them, they offered them gifts. One of the gifts was a pig. They immediately killed it and buried it. Made me wonder why they would do that? But then I admit unlike the Christian priest I am not brave enough to find out

Buddhism supplanted Hinduism once across India, there is a high chance it will do it again

Will the high caste Brahmins allow that? They already dream of an India without Islam, Christianity where they can rule with peace without the foreign Islamic ideas of "All men are equal". Nothing short of an India ruled by High Caste Brahmins is acceptable to the RSS. Maybe they will tolerate Buddhism to show their "tolerance" of other Ideas

Genghis Khan would be dismayed at those who didnot believe in Tengriism,

He will be even more dismayed to see what present day Mongolia has now become. A total backwater portion of the world

Heck even Computer Science is dependent on predictable behaviour of electrons of this Universe

Speaking of Computer metaphors, Islam is to all monotheistic philosophies what Unicode is to ASCII. You can do great things while sticking to ASCII but in this day and age should you?

Race is god, god is Race

Here are some of the gods created by some of the races of the past

Babylonian:

Aztec:

Egyptian:

Egyptian Pharoah

I will also add the Golden calf that the Israelites created right when Moses(AS) was among them to the list (they probably listened to you)

Now what is common in all the of the above pictures? They were dieties created by people whom you may proudly call your ancestors. These dieties were probably manifestations of the desires of the ruling elite of the time.

What is other thing common in those deities? They were challenged by the followers of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muslims. You can hardly call all these people one "race". So what is common in all the aforementioned people. They all worship the same God. They were almost challenged by creators of these deities from a position of strength. The end result was always the same. The people were either destroyed/converted and their deities became museum curiosities and their very history was written by the Abrahmics. Give me one reason why any self made Indian deities if forced on mankind won't meet the same fate?

In a way want the Ram Mandir to be recreated to it's full glory. In a future Muslim India, I want it's abandoned ruins to serve as fresh reminder to the rest of mankind of the result of wrongly imposing self made philosophies/gods on man like all the pagan ruins all over the world