Is it right to attack South Waziristan now?

[IceCold]

You agreed that innocient people die and million will be IDP's but no concern about them , think no need to even discuss because you dont have any concern about them.



For you concept of UMMAH is bullshit , very sad brother say immediate sorry to Allah.

Better read about islam there is no harm at any age you can learn but if you have desire .

There are four stages of human beings living on the earth.

Stage1- Who care about other humans -known as Ashraf Makhlukat
Stage2-Who only care about them self-Equivalent to Animals
Stage3-Who need blood of human beings known as (Daranda) Wolf,Loin etc.
Stage4-Who dont have any benefit to harm human , only to satisfy their hatred known as muzi (snake) etc .

Allah will accept their tuba at stage 1&2 but when they reach at stage 4 the doors of hadayat will be closed for them.

The concept of ummah is long gone, now every body is for himself. Why do you so conveniently forget that it is not alone Pakistan's responsible to gather Ummah, what about other Muslim countries, isnt their duty too to make sure some kind of alliance is formed between Muslim countries but no, Turkey is busy sucking up to get included in NATO while SA is busy licking US balls.
Its time we forget the whole ummah thing and move on. Pakistan comes first and that is what should be our priority and not some lost concept.

And one more thing somewhere you said there should be Chinese and Turkish army on Pakistan soil, let me ask you does the word sovereignty means anything to you or have we become so pathetic that we openly wish for foreign armies on our soil. Frankly it appears we have no respect for what our elders laid their lives for, why do you think we demanded a separate home land if in the end we wished for foreign armies on our soil. The attitude is pathetic to say the least which would make us a laughing stock all around the world.

 

[waraich66]

The concept of ummah is long gone, now every body is for himself. Why do you so conveniently forget that it is not alone Pakistan's responsible to gather Ummah, what about other Muslim countries, isnt their duty too to make sure some kind of alliance is formed between Muslim countries but no, Turkey is busy sucking up to get included in NATO while SA is busy licking US balls.
Its time we forget the whole ummah thing and move on. Pakistan comes first and that is what should be our priority and not some lost concept.

And one more thing somewhere you said there should be Chinese and Turkish army on Pakistan soil, let me ask you does the word sovereignty means anything to you or have we become so pathetic that we openly wish for foreign armies on our soil. Frankly it appears we have no respect for what our elders laid their lives for, why do you think we demanded a separate home land if in the end we wished for foreign armies on our soil. The attitude is pathetic to say the least which would make us a laughing stock all around the world.

You are sensible and senior person having cool head.

My idea to bring Chinies , Russian and Turkey forces can deeply analysed ,all these three countries have expertise in differet areas in which we are lacking .

For example China army is expert in counter insurgency , we can get latest equipment China to control insurgency ,from Russia we can get SU 300 or 400 missile to protect our nuke installations in case US attack on us when we kick their forces out from our soil.

Turkey forces are most professional army in muslim countries , we can take their help in strengthen our police and armed forces and air force , already they agreed to help us to upgrade F16.

 

[TaimiKhan]

You are sensible and senior person having cool head.

My idea to bring Chinies , Russian and Turkey forces can deeply analysed ,all these three countries have experise in differet areas in which we are lacking .

For example China army is expert in insurgency , we can get latest equipment China to control insurgency ,from Russia we can SU 300 or 400 missile in case US attck on us when we kick their forces out from our soil.

Turkey forces are most professional army in muslim countries , we can take their help in strengthen our police and armed forces and air force , already they agreed to help us to upgrade F16.

China has fought which COIN operation by the way ?? Can you put some light on this operation as I, including many members are unaware of any Chinese COIN operations. Plz enlighten us.

Russia will sell us S-300 or S-400 ??? And how to counter the American Stealth Aircrafts who are gonna destroy these batteries even before they fire a single missile. Don't say they can target stealth aircraft, as no such thing has been proven yet.

Turkey ?? A professional army more then PA ??

If you know, turkey is itself fighting decades old COIN against the Kurd PPK & a lot of their forces are engaged there too. If they can't finish their COIN operation, how to expect they will do the job here ???

 

[waraich66]

China has fought which COIN operation by the way ?? Can you put some light on this operation as I, including many members are unaware of any Chinese COIN operations. Plz enlighten us.

I was expacting from this type of non serious reply.You have decided to oppose me at any cost even you are ready face embrasement due lack of knowledge and experience.

For your information China and Pakistan are all ready discussing this issue hopefully some thing will be finalised soon.

http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/2009/10/china-offers-pakistan-high-tech-to.html

Russia will sell us S-300 or S-400 ??? And how to counter the American Stealth Aircrafts who are gonna destroy these batteries even before they fire a single missile. Don't say they can target stealth aircraft, as no such thing has been proven yet

.

Iran already signed deal to buy S-300 , S-400 is advance technology then S-300 designed for 4th & 5th generation planes.

Turkey ?? A professional army more then PA ??

If you know, turkey is itself fighting decades old COIN against the Kurd PPK & a lot of their forces are engaged there too. If they can't finish their COIN operation, how to expect they will do the job here ???

GOP and Turkey are already in the process to finalize the upgrading of F16 , they have settled their Kurd problem and more experience to handle insurgency then PA.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article3004.html#

Turkey far ahead in technology read link before laugh better cough now lol

 

[TaimiKhan]

I was expacting from this type of non serious reply.You have decided to oppose me at any cost even you are ready face embrasement due lack of knowledge and experience.

When you write stupid kind of posts with no common sense involved, it means you ask for non serious kind of replies. I am not the one who is being embarrassed, its you who is getting embarrassed with such idiotic posts.

For your information China and Pakistan are all ready discussing this issue hopefully some thing will be finalised soon.

You said China has COIN experience am not talking about equipment, am very well aware that we buy a lot of equipment from them. I asked you to provide which COIN operation the Chinese have done making them expert in COIN operations so that they should be deployed in Pakistan to do the work of PA.

Name, place of the COIN operation done by China ?????

Iran already signed deal to buy SU300 , SU400 is advance technology then SU300 designed for 4th generation planes.

So ?? What has Iran to do with Pakistan ?? They are traditional buyers of Russian equipment, while we are not. Nor in present circumstances they will sell it to us. Plus these systems are good for 4th & 4.5th generation aircraft, while if you do have some knowledge (which you don't by the way), the stealth aircraft's come into the 5th Generation technology, non visible to radar.

GOP and Turkey are already in the process to finalize the upgrading of F16 , they have settled their Kurd problem and more experience to handle insurgency then PA.

So ?? What has F-16 upgrades to do with your saying of Turkish forces for COIN operations in Pakistan ?? F-16 will help, but what has the Turkish armed forces role in it ??? Or how come PA professionalism is less then theirs ???

They have settled their Kurd problem ?? Dude, you OK ??? Few months back, turkey was nearly at war & was gonna invade Iraq to finish the PPK, America came in & defused the situation as it would have been invading Iraq. PPK has not been finished, they are still there & fully armed, only the American presence is keeping the cease fire. What do you read in SA ?? From where do you get your knowledge sources ???

 

[seekers]

Self made wahabi King of UMMAH need US. to do their own jihad(Against Saddam), other side they also keep financing to do takfiri jihad in all part of world.

Muslim can't be unite as UMMAH if they don't recognize and condemn these munafiq kings who call them self khadmein harmein shareef.

 

[All-Green]

Sorry to say but as time passes by the attacks increase, our country cannot sustain this...
We need to act without any mercy towards such terrorists...we need to use the overwhelming firepower to destroy the terrorist basis and training centers and keep them on the run...leaving them alone with a stable supply line and permanent basis is helping them win the asymmetric war...the reason is obviously because they just have to survive and carry few attacks in order to be counted as undefeated...State on the other hand has to stop nearly all attacks to claim victory...the odds are too much in the favor of Terrorists if there are land masses where they hold sway openly in public...these territories need to be controlled by State...

We cannot act against rogue militants who have become terrorists because we orchestrated a Jihad so it is all our fault?
What kind of a logic is that?
Maybe it is our fault that many people blindly followed Zia's Topi drama of Jihad and perceived it as a noble thing which we carried out...
Maybe it was our mistake that we did not think about the long term consequences of such a mass mobilization of men geared to fight a superpower...

But enough is enough...
We need to take care of these rebels and rogues and the terrorist leaders who are driving them to destroy Pakistan...militancy has led us to this point and there is no such thing as controlled militancy...Pakistan should not tolerate militancy in its boundary for any reason...even if it seems right at a given moment in time...the risks are far too much...

Why the disease spread is not the thing to be lamenting upon alone, we need to attack the disease now before it weakens us to the point of no return...

We can in no way survive as a nation, without destroying the organizations which are spreading terror in our lives...it is destroy or be destroyed...

The silly notion of appeasing to the better side of a terrorist on a self proclaimed holy mission is not practical...it will lead to certain death of Pakistan...

The other option of waging a war on these rebels and terrorists is not without dangers but at least it has a 50-50 chance of success...

 

[SeaGull]

Hi,

As I shared earlier that you missed it all----doesnot make any difference who and what made them terrorists---when the state say lay down your arms and live peacefull---that is it period.

These guys are lucky that they didnot live during the time of any muslim khalifah or kings---otherwise their living bodies be torn apart, hung on poles, hung in cages in public squares and starved to death---tied to a pole and lit on fire--all family members---little children, girls,boys, men women all executed and lands confiscated and all sign of that tribe wiped out.

Hi Mastan Khan,

No I did not miss your point entirely - contrary to that I replied to it fully - perhaps you had difficully in filling in the details, and I can see that you insist on playing this Russian Roulette that you feel will give you more $$$.
But from now on I shall be missing your point - because what you say I cannot comprehend - but before that let me deal with this unfinished business that you started.

OK - How do you tell a people to lay down their arms which is a 'Way of Life' for them. Who pick up the arms the moment they drop from their mother's womb and cling to it till you bury them in their graves, You are asking them to give up way too much.

As for the STATE - MUSHARRAF was the STATE for you when it all started. Did you people listen or obey your STATE?
The strikes, the violence, the unrest, the bloodshed all for the sake to drive out that STATE to bring in another STATE - the visible face of which is Zardari. This FORUM itself is witness of how much you respect and obey this STATE authority, and I am not going beyond to prove this point.
Your comments on this STATE AUTHORITY ring truly hollow and I can see that you have another supporter here cheering you on, who claims to be a Patriot who loves every inch of his country - S. Waziristan does not fall within the very inch that he measures.

If this be the state of Think Tankers here who provide Guidelines and Direction to your Policy Makers, how can anyone expect anything different than what is happening to your country.

Lastly - it is time you change your sign off signature at the bottom - it does not match your rhetoric.

 

[SeaGull]

FUNDAMENTALIST> You would save a lot of breath by stop chanting this UMMAH thing.

 

[TaimiKhan]

OK - How do you tell a people to lay down their arms which is a 'Way of Life' for them. Who pick up the arms the moment they drop from their mother's womb and cling to it till you bury them in their graves, You are asking them to give up way too much.

Nobody is asking them to physically surrender their weapons, they can do whatever they want with their weapons, except for attacking innocent human beings. Its the symbolic laying of arms, meaning to leave the path of confrontation with the govt. No one up til now has asked them to lay their personal weapons.

As for the STATE - MUSHARRAF was the STATE for you when it all started. Did you people listen or obey your STATE?
The strikes, the violence, the unrest, the bloodshed all for the sake to drive out that STATE to bring in another STATE - the visible face of which is Zardari. This FORUM itself is witness of how much you respect and obey this STATE authority, and I am not going beyond to prove this point.
Your comments on this STATE AUTHORITY ring truly hollow and I can see that you have another supporter here cheering you on, who claims to be a Patriot who loves every inch of his country - S. Waziristan does not fall within the very inch that he measures.

Musharaf was removed for the misadventures he did in the last leg of his tenure, not for the mess we are in right now. Removing him did not meant to surrender in front of the TTP by bringing in the new govt, so the policy to engage the terrorist had to continue either through peace talks or through war. Zardari is disliked by everyone of us, but he is not just the state, there are other elements making up a state, due to which the state machinery is rolling. The recent developments does show that he is not running the show 100%.

Don't lecture us on Patriotism by sitting somewhere where you can't feel the fire in which we are burning nor knowing about the ground realities or even knowing about FATA & who we are fighting with & what they want in reality.

Your arguments about Pakistan & we being wrong about the policies would have been correct, had you known about the one we are fighting & what in reality is their agenda. We are not fighting on behalf of US now, it has now become our own war for survival with organizations who are challenging the existence of Pakistan not due to support to US or taking a U turn against the Taliban, rather for their own personal & foreign backed agenda to destabilize Pakistan.

If this be the state of Think Tankers here who provide Guidelines and Direction to your Policy Makers, how can anyone expect anything different than what is happening to your country.

As i said, where you are, you are in no position to lecture us, as we are the ones who are facing the fire & we have to decide how to extinguish it not by taking dictation from US or from people like you who have no understanding of the ground realities. Reading international newspapers, articles on net or TV programs won't make u someone to comment or lecture us, its we who are sitting here in our cities, hearing & watching bomb blasts, seeing human body parts, hearing the artillery fire from few hundred meters away or clutching our little babies & running for cover to get them to safety at the sound of rockets landing nearby. We are the ones who know what to do & how to handle them.

Being a Pashtun myself, belonging to the same area from where this menace started, having gone through the pain of lost ones, i do know these barbarians are not the ones who will understand through dialogue as past is a testament to it, they need the same language in which they talk, then they will understand.

Its very sad to hear such comments from people like you who have the luxury of sitting somewhere safe & talking about Islam or that Pakistan did wrong, when everyone knows no one else, no muslim country is gonna come & help us if we get into problem.

Tomorrow if India attacks your parent country, do you think anyone else will come to support you, NO WAY, or will you guys surrender ?? It will be you & your countrymen who will decide how to safe their own arses, no matter how much you have to take some damage yourself with bad decisions before reaching the goal decided earlier.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I have given my idea to control insurgency , did you have any?

Please come out of hatred , so that your brain start working




China is second largest army of world , better campare apple with apple






Again showing your hard head capabilities here ,i had mentioned that Russia shall sell the technology as selling to Iran.

S-400 is built to counter F22 and F35 5th generation air crafts .





You are switching your comments , first you said how Turkish army is better then PA now you jumped to COIN operation.

I will not let your run away

Turkey armed forces have supriority over PA in many fields , PA can get support from them.



Little knowledge is dangerous , insurgency in Turkey already resolved.

One of the many already posted pathetic posts.

 

[waraich66]

FUNDAMENTALIST> You would save a lot of breath by stop chanting this UMMAH thing.

Brother all muslims belong to one ummah , who dont want him to be included in ummah it means he is non beliver of Prophet PBUH.

We can clearly see all over world mostly muslim countries battle field ,because we forget what we forget?

Our enemy is always feel fear from ummah concept because unity is strength ,this the lesson was given by our Prophet PBUH .

Non muslims are also ummah of Prophet PBUH but considered non believer ummah .

Every human being born uptill day of Kayamat belong to ummah of Prophet PBUH ,similarly other Prophets have their own ummah.

 

[All-Green]

Hi Mastan Khan,

No I did not miss your point entirely - contrary to that I replied to it fully - perhaps you had difficully in filling in the details, and I can see that you insist on playing this Russian Roulette that you feel will give you more $$$.
But from now on I shall be missing your point - because what you say I cannot comprehend - but before that let me deal with this unfinished business that you started.

OK - How do you tell a people to lay down their arms which is a 'Way of Life' for them. Who pick up the arms the moment they drop from their mother's womb and cling to it till you bury them in their graves, You are asking them to give up way too much.

As for the STATE - MUSHARRAF was the STATE for you when it all started. Did you people listen or obey your STATE?
The strikes, the violence, the unrest, the bloodshed all for the sake to drive out that STATE to bring in another STATE - the visible face of which is Zardari. This FORUM itself is witness of how much you respect and obey this STATE authority, and I am not going beyond to prove this point.
Your comments on this STATE AUTHORITY ring truly hollow and I can see that you have another supporter here cheering you on, who claims to be a Patriot who loves every inch of his country - S. Waziristan does not fall within the very inch that he measures.

If this be the state of Think Tankers here who provide Guidelines and Direction to your Policy Makers, how can anyone expect anything different than what is happening to your country.

Lastly - it is time you change your sign off signature at the bottom - it does not match your rhetoric.

Even though i feel a taunt in this comment...I really do not get personal nor i am quick to hate anyone...still it would have been better if you knew me personally before calling me self righteous or a ringside cheerleader who wants to enjoy the show...

As i speak multiple terrorists are attacking my Pakistan openly...i cannot sit quietly and will support any action the state takes to take these people down...my dislike for Zardari or anyone else does not cloud my judgment to not see the evil which faces us today...

Your comments about the cause and effect are not without reason and self reflection is what i have been doing for past 10-20 years but the point is what good is self reflection alone when the issue has gotten out of hand?
All i have learnt is that we did made mistakes...but i want to learn how to deal with the current threat...
That is not something the average Pakistani has a luxury of to sit in theirs drawing rooms and think about alone...we as a nation have to act against such terrorists...regardless of what happened in the past, we cannot sit back and lament on mistakes made in the past...
.
.
.
I guess i have no way to prove to anyone that i am a patriot...in such a case anything that i do will be judged as reflecting on my patriotism and good or bad it will be held against me...Right?
Ok I agree with you...let us further extrapolate on this...shall we?

By virtue of same accountability, no matter what the cause...if a person targets innocents and terrorizes the innocents that is his responsibility and his sin to bear...he forfeits his right to be treated as a normal member of society...he forfeits the right to be negotiated with...he forfeits the right to be even called a human when he trains and sends young children to commit suicide and in the process kills hundreds of more innocents...
I have no mercy for these evil minds who are butchering innocents in the name of Allah and Islam...it is such people against whom i will support my state in every capacity that i am capable of...be it only writing on forums like these...

I have lived in these areas, have friends from these areas and am familiar with the people as well; so are many other members and think tanks here, we are not sitting in foreign land enjoying a show from the ringside...we have witnessed in our lifetime what one should never have to see first hand...please do not assume that our knowledge is weak or we are following a hidden agenda undermining Ummah...we are looking at the practicality of it all...practically we cannot remain passive and not take military action against such extremely inhuman opponents...once their might is broken and their fortifications and rings are broken...that would be the time to talk and make peace...now it will be the death of us to sit back and let it roll as it is...

You deliberately mix all tribals with the terrorists...that is your flawed point of view not ours...maybe it is because we have lived in these areas and know our people more than you...but we do segregate between a tribal and a TTP terrorist...yes some tribals will be loyal to their paymasters but once the battle is joined many scores will support the Army...We are launching assault on terrorists and not the tribals who are not allies of terrorists...

The displacement happened in Swat as well and despite the rhetoric it was proven to be the right thing to do...a pain for few months is more bearable than constant life under a barrage of bombings and thousands of murders...I have many friends in Swat and the frustrating thing was the delay in State action...once PA rolled in, many Swatis helped them against the TTP...

Clearly you are not suffering from it all so you cannot comprehend how it is to live constantly under fear of a bomb blast and especially when you fear for your children...you can only guess...you will not feel ...
i certainly hope you are never made to feel this...it is a most disgusting thing...

There is one question i need to ask you...
Do you consider TTP a terrorist organization or not?

That is what you need to consider...not how or when they became a terrorist...

 

[Patriot]

Chinese and Turkey Troops on Pakistani soil to fight US?Fundamentalist , you are surely smoking some good ****.Just twisting words to support your Jihadi supporters.No matter how much you whine about army here.Wazrisitan will be dealt with iron fist.I know you will provide moral and financial support to your Talibans but they will be taken care off.

 

[waraich66]

Sorry to say but as time passes by the attacks increase, our country cannot sustain this...
We need to act without any mercy towards such terrorists...we need to use the overwhelming firepower to destroy the terrorist basis and training centers and keep them on the run...leaving them alone with a stable supply line and permanent basis is helping them win the asymmetric war...the reason is obviously because they just have to survive and carry few attacks in order to be counted as undefeated...State on the other hand has to stop nearly all attacks to claim victory...the odds are too much in the favor of Terrorists if there are land masses where they hold sway openly in public...these territories need to be controlled by State...

We cannot act against rogue militants who have become terrorists because we orchestrated a Jihad so it is all our fault?
What kind of a logic is that?
Maybe it is our fault that many people blindly followed Zia's Topi drama of Jihad and perceived it as a noble thing which we carried out...
Maybe it was our mistake that we did not think about the long term consequences of such a mass mobilization of men geared to fight a superpower...

But enough is enough...
We need to take care of these rebels and rogues and the terrorist leaders who are driving them to destroy Pakistan...militancy has led us to this point and there is no such thing as controlled militancy...Pakistan should not tolerate militancy in its boundary for any reason...even if it seems right at a given moment in time...the risks are far too much...

Why the disease spread is not the thing to be lamenting upon alone, we need to attack the disease now before it weakens us to the point of no return...

We can in no way survive as a nation, without destroying the organizations which are spreading terror in our lives...it is destroy or be destroyed...

The silly notion of appeasing to the better side of a terrorist on a self proclaimed holy mission is not practical...it will lead to certain death of Pakistan...

The other option of waging a war on these rebels and terrorists is not without dangers but at least it has a 50-50 chance of success...

All Green,

Solution is very simple , GOP stop all support to US and cancel all future arms deals with US better extend hand of friendship with Russia and China.

US is very close to defeat , in this senario better we should review our friendship with US , because they will not stay in Afghanistan after defeat.

We need long term support and friendship which China and Russia can provide.

Root cause of increasing insurgency is US drone attacks , the day these attacks stopped you will see great change in Pakistan.