Is it right to attack South Waziristan now?

[PakShaheen79]

if you watch morons like zaid hamid and hamid mir, you will lose touch with common sense and reality. zaid hamid is an ex-jihadi who will try his best to deny other jihadis are the problem and keep blaming israel, zionists, hindu-zionists, sardarjees... we need real political pundits, not nutjobs like him.

Ever heard his views about TTP and Baitullah Mehsud? I don't think so. So please first try to find something to support ur claim and then come here. We will discuss this in detail.

 

[amna]

even a broken clock shows the right time twice a day. doesn't mean it is right.

zaid hamid panders to the jazbaati crowd, those who want to see dhoom-dhamaka gola-bari and yahood wa hanoud being called names every two lines. he is a performer, kinda like a media tawaif. nothing more. if you want to hear news that is meant to direct pakistanis towards a stronger nation, this clown is not the person. if you want to get entertained and pretend we are some superpower, he is your clown.

 

[waraich66]

even a broken clock shows the right time twice a day. doesn't mean it is right.

zaid hamid panders to the jazbaati crowd, those who want to see dhoom-dhamaka gola-bari and yahood wa hanoud being called names every two lines. he is a performer, kinda like a media tawaif. nothing more. if you want to hear news that is meant to direct pakistanis towards a stronger nation, this clown is not the person. if you want to get entertained and pretend we are some superpower, he is your clown.

Amna jany do ghusa , zahid hamid ke roze laghi hui hai , char pesy kamay do , ho sakta hay zardari ki trah jahez banay me laga ho.

Lakin kuch to dal me kala hai , gis ka gali me shoor macha hua hai.



Our COAS is really man of nerves , dealing with zardari team , mom dad US generals and insurgency backed by indian intelligence.

 

[khanz]

yes kill these scum as soon as possible

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Mastan Khan,

No I did not miss your point entirely - contrary to that I replied to it fully - perhaps you had difficully in filling in the details, and I can see that you insist on playing this Russian Roulette that you feel will give you more $$$.
But from now on I shall be missing your point - because what you say I cannot comprehend - but before that let me deal with this unfinished business that you started.

OK - How do you tell a people to lay down their arms which is a 'Way of Life' for them. Who pick up the arms the moment they drop from their mother's womb and cling to it till you bury them in their graves, You are asking them to give up way too much.

As for the STATE - MUSHARRAF was the STATE for you when it all started. Did you people listen or obey your STATE?
The strikes, the violence, the unrest, the bloodshed all for the sake to drive out that STATE to bring in another STATE - the visible face of which is Zardari. This FORUM itself is witness of how much you respect and obey this STATE authority, and I am not going beyond to prove this point.
Your comments on this STATE AUTHORITY ring truly hollow and I can see that you have another supporter here cheering you on, who claims to be a Patriot who loves every inch of his country - S. Waziristan does not fall within the very inch that he measures.

If this be the state of Think Tankers here who provide Guidelines and Direction to your Policy Makers, how can anyone expect anything different than what is happening to your country.

Lastly - it is time you change your sign off signature at the bottom - it does not match your rhetoric.

Hi,

Way of life doesnot supercede the demands of the nation----the state may chose to make an about face and go 180*---that is the rigth and choice of the state---

Have you ever heard the Willie Nelson and Merle Hagard song---no here it is-----just because the federales let you get away didnot mean that you got the free reign---

As for Musharraf---that was a political move---citizens of the state have a right to start a political movement.

 

[waraich66]

Now ! gmm me, you best shot! not just hanky panky! will you!

Atlast you come out of your shell , '' ge ian nu" , by the way are you on special duty just like tamikhan,patriot supported by All Green.

Just joking , i know from very start you are experienced professional.

khob guzra gi ju mil bheten gein dewani duh

i can assure you , that enemies of pakistan tried to bust pakistan in the past, & they failed! right remember ISRAELI air attack on KAHOTTA?

Yes know very well , before worked with top nuke scientists.

I AM 1000000000000% sure, they will fail this time & soon they will be begging for help, just belive me!
PAKARMY has its eyes on evry one, & it willnot wait a second to , push a button !
let me know you , i went for "DAWAT" HERE in a budhist country, so dont think for other peoples, that they are ignorant about islam.

Sorry in advance for my any statement heart you.I shall tried to clarify the doubts nothing more , wanted to share with you few things nothing else.

yes there will be IDPs but , just for once, let me tell you i was been a cover up in afghanistan, the times of SOVIETS & i know , PAKARMY CAN give them what they never thought about.

Agreed .I was at that time in terbela discussing with SSG friends strategies and tactics of war against Russia.

but plz stop, targeting the current PA & its leadership, just because you listen javeed nasir SHAHIB, you can ask him what was he was doing that time, i mean the time of afghan jihad?
but soon after his retirnce he became "dai"!
bro , dont belive these guys!

I think you gone through my previous post , i remain in close contact only with javed nasir but also Gen ghulam muhammad (SSG).I am very big fan of them and learnt lot from them.They never told any thing against army , please clear your doubts if any.

oky i still salute gen,ZIA because he did his job, but every COAS has his own probeums & , they all have to listen their, commanders, this goes to GEN . musharaf too, he was a MASTER of deception, & he decepted the world, & made pakistani defence , a untouchable wall, he did that but, as a human he, did some mistakes by not introducing a hard core revolution in pakistan , instead he went for"DEMOCRAZY", for which for he is paying now?
but HIS decicion to make GEN.KIYANI a new COAS, was indeed the most right full & the most patriotic, decicions he made!

Agreed with your analysis.My very close relative was right hand of Musharaf , he also served under Kayani , in short no one is perfect.

NOW our COAS , is very humble & cool minded man but at the same time A "DEADLY MILITRY STRIKE PLANNER", i can assure you he will going, tomake pakistan,s ENEMIES, a "knockout" for sure.
i think PAKARMY is going to hunt down .TTP animals , which they never thought, after all its just belive, right that we muslims have?
so just belive it, someday we will win, for sure!

Agreed.

Allah Hafiz Sab bakair

 

[r0ck]

even a broken clock shows the right time twice a day. doesn't mean it is right.

Huh?

zaid hamid panders to the jazbaati crowd, those who want to see dhoom-dhamaka gola-bari and yahood wa hanoud being called names every two lines. he is a performer, kinda like a media tawaif. nothing more. if you want to hear news that is meant to direct pakistanis towards a stronger nation, this clown is not the person. if you want to get entertained and pretend we are some superpower, he is your clown.

How about the umpteenth news broadcaster on Indian news channels endlessly ranting about the demise of Pakistan and the greatness of India (and their cricket team, when their winning i.e).

Getting back to Zaid Hamid, who being a bit compassionate doesn't mean he's just going 'dhoom-dhamaka'. I'm not saying take his every word, but he's the kind of guy you NEED to have against the biggest yellow media machine in the world. And his predictions are not wholly wrong IMHO.

 

[SecularHumanist]

Huh?



How about the umpteenth news broadcaster on Indian news channels endlessly ranting about the demise of Pakistan and the greatness of India (and their cricket team, when their winning i.e).

Getting back to Zaid Hamid, who being a bit compassionate doesn't mean he's just going 'dhoom-dhamaka'. I'm not saying take his every word, but he's the kind of guy you NEED to have against the biggest yellow media machine in the world. And his predictions are not wholly wrong IMHO.

You don't deal with Indian yellow journalism, sensationalism, and bs by doing the same yourself. Intellect is the best weapon against them. A nutjob like Zaid Hamid doesn't possess intellect so he has to resort to emotional, patriotic rants, which are not convincing. Every sentence of his has zionist, CIA, Raw, Mossad conspiracy. He is a complete nutjob that likes to blame every mess of this country on the 'external hand.' This is good for domestic consumption and our gullible public loves hearing this because afterall it is hard to swallow the fact that this country is in this mess because of its own doing. This kind of thinking also protects the failures of the establishment, and ultimately it is a cycle of blaming everything on outsiders.

This country needs to realize one thing--this mess is our own doing. Its a bitter pill to swallow, but the sooner we take it the better.

 

[All-Green]

"That is all what you got from my post..."

Sorrowfully, no.

It is an issue of personal integrity with me. You've openly displayed your values, All-Green, and they're flawed.

What else can explain "milk"?

I'm sorry sir but platitudes about "trust" pale right there in the face of your comment. We HAVE trusted you but it would appear that Steve Coll is correct that America aids the ally of our enemy.

That's MY money and that of my fellow citizens you milk. It is theft under any such definition.

"Milk" us? Why not declare war upon us? That would be right and proper and not nearly so duplicitous.

Right now I am stunned and feel very, very sorry for both you and I. We'll part personal ways here, sir.

S-2,

I am well aware of the nature of current US Pak relationship...it is certainly not based on trust of two peoples...but rather both parties getting some benefit from each other...US is also milking Pakistan here...
Your supply is via Pakistan and in return Pakistan gets some reimbursement...this has been the model so far...
And i guess since past one year the money is not flowing...despite the fact the Pakistan is heavily engaged in fighting terrorism...after Swat operation i would have thought that US would know Pakistan better but still i see delays in funding to help PA keep up its operations and maintain necessary reserves for any other threat as well...
I am sure that this fight we have to fight ourselves but US presence in Afghanistan has been a complication and a major reason for the uprising of many militants who find recruits due to this reason and so our situation is delicate due to the sheer numbers of people brainwashed to be used against Pakistan by the terrorists...
With such odds i would have thought that our allies would have been quite generous in their help to Pakistan...what has been the response in the past one year when our efforts are much more obvious?

Will US aid Pakistan if this dependence is over?
What will happen if US packs up and leaves and Afghans think that Pakistan is their enemy no 1?
This is what majority of people fear...
The question on every lip is that what is the nature of our long term relationship with US?

I would not be lying if i said that beyond few more years i see this all vanishing...whether Pakistan wins or loses in Waziristan...i see US pulling back...
There is no solution in Afghanistan...Karzai will never be popular and even if you find a good man, he shall be labeled as a puppet and the Afghans will not rally around him...even if US brings a 100,000 more troops the terrain of Afghanistan is such that you shall never be present in the remote and isolated areas and the anti US resistance will maintain its pressure...you are not only facing terrorists of Al Qaeda...you are also facing Afghan freedom fighters, they will only garner more and more support over time...

Pakistan should clean out its own mess and become stable...that will make Pakistan more balanced in all aspects...that is of fundamental importance...it will even make Pakistan US relationship better since it will not be based on the concept of milking each other...you will not have cause then to feel upset about your money...even though it is being used for services rendered through Pakistan.

I guess much depends upon the Kerry Luger Bill which could have been drafted in a much less abrasive manner, had US considered Pakistan a true Ally...still i am hoping that there is a recovery by our governments here in what has otherwise been an utterly disappointing episode in our troubled history...

You think it is theft to milk US, on the other hand your state is always sending mixed messages and is also then a hypocrite...if you think we are supporting terrorists then declare war upon us...it is always some US official who gives a statement about possibility of ISI involvement or state involvement...even the Kerry Luger Bill has such in implication in its draft...
Cease to support terrorism?
Are you kidding me?
We are losing people all around and still it is thought that our state is actually doing it?
What would you think of someone who says that US as a State orchestrated all terrorist events so that it can wage war?
Even if someone says there is a possibility of US state involvement in 9/11...he will be called a retard...which country kills its own innocent citizens in cold blood?
I am sure you would consider such a statement as absolutely garbage show extreme dislike for those who share this view...

What do you think i feel or any Pakistani feels when our state and institutions are blamed for terrorism...
Afghan Jihad and its subsequent impact on our nation is a major factor which has led to the current situation...by virtue of same US is also responsible for this, not just Pakistan...however whether anyone deliberately wanted all of this...i do not think so...
Yet i see such implications even when are supposed to be the most strategic Ally of US...that is not right, it does not make sense...

What proof do you guys have that currently Pakistan is supporting terrorism on a State level?
On the other hand your state is also praising Pakistan's role as a key ally...
You are talking about my flawed morals here...sorry to say but i am utterly confused as to whether US trusts Pakistan or not...
You say you are sure that US has Trusted Pakistan so far...this confidence does not ever reflect in your posts...nor has this been reinforced by your government when it supports us on one hand as a key ally engaged against terrorists and on the other hand asks us to cease support to terrorists....
Trust is not a daily commodity...if you trust us then it should reflect in all the statements of your government and decision makers...

What is the unified long term stance of government of USA specific to my country?

Regarding the personal integrity comment, that is uncalled for, given that it is not a relationship between S-2 and All-Green, it is a relationship between two states...one of which is in dire straits and has to to everything to survive and sustain itself, the other can pull out of this hell hole anytime it feels the cost is too great to bear...this is the difference between US and Pakistan...we are not in the same boat here...you can swim away anytime...we shall sink if we are not tactful...

lets talk further via P.M. about anything personal you have felt

 

[Icarus]

absolutely not as winter is coming at it'speak in soiuth waziristan
and there is expected to have heavy snowfall at the start of the next month so in this harsh conditions it would be difficult for the army to mobilize such a large attack composed of 2 divisions...and plus it wuld also be difficult for air force to drop laser-guided munition under such harsh snowfall season......
in all case it is going it is to be the most bloodiest COIN sincre 2004 in FATA.....according to analysis of zaid hamid army's death toll since the end of the operations in bajaur and malakand was 100 in bajaur and 300 in malakand
it is expected to be atleast 1000 army losses if operation is going to happen in this moment.....surely militants' loss will be 7-10 times more then this.....
but after GHQ fall out we have no other choice left but to only to re-launch operation rah-e-nijat

1) PAF does not use LGMs unless targeting in densely populated areas.
2) There is more snowfall in Bajaur then as compared to Waziristan but that did not stop the security forces from gaining a stunning victory there.
I believe the time is right, if we wait for the spring, we give these guys a chance to entrench themselves making Waziristan a bloodbath.
It will give them time to stock up on weapons and rations with the help of consulates of a certain country.
We can't wait any longer....................It's now or never.........

 

[Straight]

To All-Green and other forum membrs with similar thoughts:

I am impressed with most points you make in your posts while also under agony to see how events of anguish are unfolding to brothers of another Muslim country.

Yet, I am to ask of this forum a few humble questions to understand better what that are upcoming:

1. How are you sure that further PA ops will not be a blunder similar to that in 1971 in Bangladesh---by way of deciding unilaterally that no further political solution is available, and thus putting GoP/PA at a point-of-no-return ?

2. Is it inevitably correct that once you use merciless force, you break the crystal of the glass beyond jointing it spotless ever ?

3. Are these TTPs and whoever they entail and encumber are purely urchins bought at Rs 20/day without any ‘high & solid’ concept, emotion & commitment that heightened further their own resolve / anger without any past/current mistake by GoP/PA ? As regards to 1971 blunder, many Pakistani attribute the shame of losing the eastern arm entirely on ‘disloyalty’ of Bangladesh people and Indian ‘meddling’—without looking at roots of the real in-house causes of continued disparity over decades. Are Pakistanis going to do it for the second time (for entirely different set of causes) losing many parts of its body here and there, and then make the house stand erect while divided against itself ?

4. With about a month’s stamina, once you mobilize PA to the west, then are you sure of re-deploying them again at the east should a dire necessity arises out-of-the-blue ? Do some others want you to get trapped & weaker in the process ?

5. With a burning Afghanistan at the west wherein GoP/PA having no influence, can you surely douse this flame conclusively by using arms only ?

6. Can it be denied that following similes of 1971 are repeating:

• Political activists in EP were thought ‘miscreants’
• No respect were shown to their points of views
• Arms were thought to be the best and the most effective solution
• No innovative and open-minded approach to devise ‘political’ solution
• ‘Holier-than-thou’ attitude all along

7. Is it a case of ‘poetic justice’ in reaction to any mistake/excess of 1971 in EP ?

8. How likely is prsence of multiple 'Dr. Osman' and many sympathizers to and mourning relatives of the 'percieved enemy' in PA that may get PA itself fragmented beyond being effective against 'real enemy(s)' in time ?

 

[Fracker]

1. How are you sure that further PA ops will not be a blunder similar to that in 1971 in Bangladesh---by way of deciding unilaterally that no further political solution is available, and thus putting GoP/PA at a point-of-no-return ?

I have many answers but will go for only one, Indian don't come in between Pakistan and SW, this wasn't the case in 1971. others could be, now we have WMD's which can put indians on the bark on the boarders, and support TTP as usual (which wont do much good to them).

2. Is it inevitably correct that once you use merciless force, you break the crystal of the glass beyond jointing it spotless ever ?

Depending upon how you do it.. Try to search "glass joining" on google

3. Are these TTPs and whoever they entail and encumber are purely urchins bought at Rs 20/day without any ‘high & solid’ concept, emotion & commitment that heightened further their own resolve / anger without any past/current mistake by GoP/PA ? As regards to 1971 blunder, many Pakistani attribute the shame of losing the eastern arm entirely on ‘disloyalty’ of Bangladesh people and Indian ‘meddling’—without looking at roots of the real in-house causes of continued disparity over decades. Are Pakistanis going to do it for the second time (for entirely different set of causes) losing many parts of its body here and there, and then make the house stand erect while divided against itself ?

As i mentioned previously, the blunder wasn't of PA, but India made it blunder,,, and an army person who return from indian jail told me that we went there to protect East Pakistan, and they simply stopped forcing us.. so it was useless for us for fight for them, while in this case PA is backed by whole population, and they just need to move forward...

4. With about a month’s stamina, once you mobilize PA to the west, then are you sure of re-deploying them again at the east should a dire necessity arises out-of-the-blue ? Do some others want you to get trapped & weaker in the process ?

Valid point, yes this is the whole game, this is why PA is taking time, and planning in a way that they wont become weaker, but another victory tag to their name like Swat Operation.

5. With a burning Afghanistan at the west wherein GoP/PA having no influence, can you surely douse this flame conclusively by using arms only ?

Again right, it can't be done unless Pakistan has good support in Afghanistan, who can counter our enemies proxies in Afghanistan.. & this is the only way...

6. Can it be denied that following similes of 1971 are repeating:

• Political activists in EP were thought ‘miscreants’
• No respect were shown to their points of views
• Arms were thought to be the best and the most effective solution
• No innovative and open-minded approach to devise ‘political’ solution
• ‘Holier-than-thou’ attitude all along

Well, ZAB weaken Army image in 1969, due to which Ayub Khan resigned, but this isn't the case today. similarly Wiziristan have representation in parliament, who will be taken in confidence prior to kick TTP out, like it happened in Swat operation.. (if not then Wiristan operation would be a blunder)

7. Is it a case of ‘poetic justice’ in reaction to any mistake/excess of 1971 in EP ?

Listen, 1971 is not 2009 neither Waziristan is Bangal, neither PA is lost any support.. so forget about comparing 1971 with 2009.

 

[Straight]

I have many answers.........

Listen, 1971 is not 2009 neither Waziristan is Bangal, neither PA is lost any support.. so forget about comparing 1971 with 2009.

Poetic Justice does not involve comparing, but involve a punitive 'Reaction' to a past wrong 'Action'. The 'action' was 'brother-against-brother' battle---like the case at hand is 'the same brother-against-other brothers' war as 'reaction'. Does history tend to repeat itself ---at least in various forms ? I humbly request any cooler answer.

 

[IceCold]

Poetic Justice does not involve comparing, but involve a punitive 'Reaction' to a past wrong 'Action'. The 'action' was 'brother-against-brother' battle---like the case at hand is 'the same brother-against-other brothers' war as 'reaction'. Does history tend to repeat itself ---at least in various forms ? I humbly request any cooler answer.

Firstly TTP are not our brothers, they are foreign sponsored terrorists. So stop insulting us.
As for BD, i wouldnt comment, its better to let go of the past.

 

[waraich66]

Brother, i am witness to many Pakistanis and PA helping out the IDPs...please stop with these statements...

Yes we are against the principle of drone attacks carried out without our permission but if PA uses these drones it has my full support...

Cities will never be safe unless the major terrorist bases are taken out completely...after this there will be a tremendous improvement...once you secure the territory only then you can stop the recruitments, the trainings and even the supplies...for all of this we have to act...sorry the only other option is bending knees to these tafkiri bastards which we cannot afford to do...

I expect a resistance in Baluchistan and Punjab and even in some forests in Sindh, once we make them run, however it shall eventually die down once we make an example of TTP in Waziristan and show our resolve to continue to hunt these rascals down...

Regarding the majority of Pakistanis not wanting an operation, that is incorrect...majority wants operation, though they want Pakistan to become more balanced in its ties with US...that can be done...

Agreed , lets hope success and good luck for our jawans.We need to motivate nation to be ready for any emergency satuation , ie blood banks, hospitals and volunteer and NCC trained personals, fund collection for IDPs.

How can expatriate send donations for IDP's?