Indian RFP for six new-generation submarines

[jha]

Economy and Tax collections are booming
so why are a few people fuming.

That sounds lyrical..

Question to your answer is that we cant afford to spend so much on every project (especially if cheaper options are available ). Not to forget the huge infrastructural development needed throughout the country.

Everybody's (including mine ) intentions are clear. Every indian want just the best for his motherland , not a single penny less.
Its just the difference in opinion ( and we allowed to have diiference in opinion and criticize the govt. policies when we feel that govt. is wasting our money..isn't that why we are world's largest and oldest democracy )

Bahut lecture ho gaya...samajh to gaye hi hoge..

 

[chachachoudhary]

I will not rule out "any" cooperation between india and US in submarines. I guess that is the best kept secret so far. If you look at the events of indo-US naval maneuvers closely in the last 6 years, some things will be surprisingly indicative.

I guess, IN and GOI do not wish to disclose anything for the time being.

 

[jha]

I will not rule out "any" cooperation between india and US in submarines. I guess that is the best kept secret so far. If you look at the events of indo-US naval maneuvers closely in the last 6 years, some things will be surprisingly indicative.

I guess, IN and GOI do not wish to disclose anything for the time being.

CHACHA-HAMID...?
cooperation between IN and USN for nuke sub sounds like that to me ..sorry

 

[chachachoudhary]

CHACHA-HAMID...?
cooperation between IN and USN for nuke sub sounds like that to me ..sorry

No, no no no!!!!! arey bhai conspiracy and cooperation are 2 different words.

I am not ready to believe that IN guys are so callous. There is something under the carpet. I can almost see the bulge.

Chalo theek hai Hamid bola to bola. Badnaam huey to kya hua, kambakht naam to hua.

 

[Kinetic]

No, no no no!!!!! arey bhai conspiracy and cooperation are 2 different words.

I am not ready to believe that IN guys are so callous. There is something under the carpet. I can almost see the bulge.

Chalo theek hai Hamid bola to bola. Badnaam huey to kya hua, kambakht naam to hua.

BTW IN sailors were there in a LA class for three days underwater with their US counterparts. But it was only navy-to-navy cooperation ad training.

 

[chachachoudhary]

BTW IN sailors were there in a LA class for three days underwater with their US counterparts. But it was only navy-to-navy cooperation ad training.

Yes, yes. Good you reminded us Kinetic bro. That was pure goodwill gesture. Actually, these sailors were made to move around blindfolded during their stay in the sub. No scope for visual tech transfer.

These 4 sailors were very very ordinary sailors, just sepoys.

 

[Mogambo]

India to acquire six subs in biggest military purchase

The Indian government is set to strengthen its navy with six advanced submarines by approving the country's biggest-ever military purchase, The Times of India reported Sunday.

The Defence Acquisitions Council has decided that three of the six submarines will be constructed at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai and one at Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam, with the help of a foreign collaborator, the newspaper reported.

"The other two submarines will either be imported from the foreign vendor directly or constructed at a private shipyard in India. Fresh estimates show each of these six diesel-electric submarines will cost almost 85 billion Indian rupees ($1.82 billion)," the paper quoted a source as saying.

The most significant feature of the six submarines will be the air-independent propul-sion system that enables them to submerge for much longer than conventional ones.

Manufacturers, such as Russia's Rosoboronexport, France's DCNS/Armaris, Germany's HDW and Spain's Navantia, were mentioned by the paper, which said that the purchas-ing process is underway but no contract has been inked.

The report came just days after Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari visited China for a possible deal in civil nuclear energy. Indian media also speculated that Zardari and Chinese officials were in talks regarding a railway linking Beijing and Islamabad.

Li Jie, a researcher at the Chinese Naval Research Institute of the PLA Navy, told the Global Times that India's submarine deal would affect the military balance in Asia.

"Submarines have always been the Indian navy's weakness," Li said. "Its current 15-strong fleet consists of mostly aging Russian and German submarines, none of which are nuclear powered. Those new submarines, along with India's aircraft carrier fleet, will boost the country's presence in the Indian Ocean and change the military climate in Asia."


Official Chinese Media

India to acquire six subs in biggest military purchase - GlobalTimes

 

[Dr.Evil]

Li Jie, a researcher at the Chinese Naval Research Institute of the PLA Navy, told the Global Times that India's submarine deal would affect the military balance in Asia.

Official Chinese Media

India to acquire six subs in biggest military purchase - GlobalTimes

India has 15 Old Diesel Electric Subs, China has over 60 Subs including 8 Nuclear Subs.

But still it will affect the military balance

 

[Dash]

The Defence Acquisitions Council has decided that three of the six submarines will be constructed at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai and one at Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam, with the help of a foreign collaborator, the newspaper reported.

This is a major delaying factor, Lets hope they plan it well this time.

 

[Guynextdoor]

India has 15 Old Diesel Electric Subs, China has over 60 Subs including 8 Nuclear Subs.

But still it will affect the military balance

Lots of their fleet are approaching obsolesence & they're rushing for replacements with new generations. Their concern might be the induction of modern AIP subs alongside their fleet refurbishment efforts.

 

[Archie]

The Defence Acquisitions Council has decided that three of the six submarines will be constructed at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai and one at Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam, with the help of a foreign collaborator, the newspaper reported.

This is a major delaying factor, Lets hope they plan it well this time.

Well Dash paji if you carefully look at the above proposal , what the government has done is , ensured that there is minimum possible delay with induction , as you must be knowing that indian navy wants the first of the P75 I subs by 2018 , now to ensure this delivery i agree with the govt that 2 subs would be procured from the vendor it self or through the pvt shipyards ie mainly the Hazira facility of L&T which is building hull of our nuclear subs , now our pvt sector is far more efficient than our public sector shipyard , simply becoz as against Mazagaon Dock which has taken 4 yrs just to fabricate hull of the first scorpene , L&T has supplied the Hull for 2 nuclear subs each of which weighs 3 times the scorpene , to the Ship building centre at Visakhapatnam as of feb 2010 , even though it started production in 2006

 

[Dash]

Well Dash paji if you carefully look at the above proposal , what the government has done is , ensured that there is minimum possible delay with induction , as you must be knowing that indian navy wants the first of the P75 I subs by 2018 , now to ensure this delivery i agree with the govt that 2 subs would be procured from the vendor it self or through the pvt shipyards ie mainly the Hazira facility of L&T which is building hull of our nuclear subs , now our pvt sector is far more efficient than our public sector shipyard , simply becoz as against Mazagaon Dock which has taken 4 yrs just to fabricate hull of the first scorpene , L&T has supplied the Hull for 2 nuclear subs each of which weighs 3 times the scorpene , to the Ship building centre at Visakhapatnam as of feb 2010 , even though it started production in 2006

Thats good thing you have pointed out. However iam somwhow not ok with teh diversification of this project. MDL is already facing crunches for teh present bunch of scorpene, and they want to cach on that. If its scorpene then its ok if not then it faces issues. and its not about a hull I guess its the complete sub.

L%T could do it as the project was designed in India and every parameter was completely under scrutiny as this is our first N Sub. This wasnt the case of Scorpene.

Now I would have called it a wise decision if -

They have asked asked L&T to build the six hulls. Internal modules had gone to other shipyard, final assenbaly at another shipyard.
That!!! would have been a wise decision where the three shipyards could have acted like a consortium.

Three different ship builders means TOT will come to all three of them and again it depends on Individual abilities to absorb the tech. MDL took so long to absorb it and it will be easy for them, what about others??

 

[soaringphnx]

Here's something I originally posted in another thread:

Six New-Generation Submarines for Indian Navy Worth Over Rs 50,000 crore​

If you thought the Rs 42,000 crore project to procure 126 multi-role fighters for the IAF was the "mother of all defence deals", think again. The stage is now being set for an even bigger project—this one worth over Rs 50,000 crore for six new-generation submarines for the Indian Navy.

The Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC), chaired by defence minister A K Antony, has finally decided that three of the six submarines will be constructed at Mazagon Docks (MDL) in Mumbai and one at Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) in Visakhapatnam, with the help of a foreign collaborator.

"The other two submarines will either be imported from the foreign vendor directly or constructed at a private shipyard in India. Fresh estimates show each of these six diesel-electric submarines will cost almost Rs 8,500 crore," a source said.

Under the programme—called Project-75 India (P-75I)—apart from stealth, land-attack capability and the ability to incorporate futuristic technologies, all the six new submarines will be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems to boost their operational capabilities.

Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to surface every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries. With AIP systems, they can stay submerged for much longer periods, narrowing the gap with nuclear-powered submarines which can operate underwater for virtually unlimited periods.

The selection of the foreign collaborator for P-75I will, of course, take time because a RFP (request for proposal) will first have to be issued to submarine manufacturers like Rosoboronexport (Russian), DCNS/Armaris (French), HDW (German) and Navantia (Spain). Shortlisting and detailed technical and commercial negotiations will follow, before the actual contract can be inked.

Navy has reasons to be worried. By 2015 or so, it will be left with just half of its present fleet of 15 ageing diesel-electric submarines—10 Russian Kilo-class, four German HDW and one Foxtrot. Moreover, it has been hit hard by the almost three-year delay in the ongoing Project-75 for six French Scorpene submarines at MDL, under which the vessels were to roll out one per year from 2012 onwards, with price escalation pushing the total cost beyond Rs 20,000 crore, as was first reported by TOI.

For P-75I, the second line of submarines, the navy was keen on a private domestic shipyard to tie-up with the foreign vendor since it felt MDL was already "overloaded" with orders and quick delivery schedules were "critical".

But the DAC has decided otherwise, holding that the infrastructure and capabilities acquired by MDL in the Scorpene project could not be allowed to go waste. "Let’s hope thing go smoothly now, and instead of 10 years, the navy gets its first submarine under P-75I in six to seven years," an official said.

Submarines can be game-changers in any conflict. And if they are armed with nuclear-tipped missiles, they provide the most effective strategic deterrent available around the world at this point of time. The US and Russia, after strategic arms reduction pacts, in fact, plan to retain over 60% of their nuclear weapons in the shape of SLBMs (submarine-launched ballistic missiles) fitted on nuclear-powered submarines called "boomers", or SSBNs.

Though India does not have nuclear submarines and SLBM capabilities at present to complete its "nuclear triad", it hopes to move forward by inducting the Akula-II class attack submarine K-152 Nerpa on a 10-year lease from Russia in October this year, and then the first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant by early-2012.

Pakistan, incidentally, already has its first Mesma AIP-equipped submarine, PNS Hamza, the third of the French Agosta-90B submarines it has inducted since 1999. It is now looking to induct three advanced Type-214 German submarines with AIP. China, in turn, has 62 submarines, with 10 of them being nuclear-propelled.

original article: ASIAN DEFENCE: Six New-Generation Submarines for Indian Navy Worth Over Rs 50,000 crore

 

[Kinetic]

India has 15 Old Diesel Electric Subs, China has over 60 Subs including 8 Nuclear Subs.

But still it will affect the military balance

Lots of their fleet are approaching obsolesence & they're rushing for replacements with new generations. Their concern might be the induction of modern AIP subs alongside their fleet refurbishment efforts.

Yes. China cannot field all of its force against India during war because there are many opponents from the east as well.

As GND said, like India many of their subs also becoming obsolete while they don't have access to advanced submarine like Scorpene.

But Yes if we compare over all capability PLAN's submarine arm is better than IN's.

 

[archangel]

Well, when its about submarines, they are definitely not like tanks that the more you have, the better and the more is the chance of your wining.

They are sophisticated and expensive piece of military equipment which can not only turn the tide of a war but if not used properly, they can prove to be a menace for their own country, as well.

If they are not up-to-date or advanced enough with respect to the submarines they are up against, then they are in great danger even they it outnumber the other. Inside the ocean, how well you hide yourself is as much important as much or is rather more important than how well you find the opponent.

The problem with subs is that once you get hit, you have great chance of not being able to recover. In a sub, you are up-against many things, the pressure of the water, other subs, mines, naval vessels and the most dangerous is the failure of firing of torpedoes and missiles in their respective launch tubes.

Since, they are expensive, it makes a great psychological impact whenever you lose a sub.

And if by mistake the Chinese push all their subs into the Indian Ocean, instead of using our own subs, we might just take em' out with mines. That would be easier because when they visit this side of the ocean with all their subs, no doubt it would become so congested. So, they won't take that step anyway.

What I mean to say here other than denouncing the submarine supremacy of China in case of a conflict with India is:-
We should rather take to smaller 2-10man submarines. Although they would have limited range and firepower, but when they would attack in swarms, they would be pretty difficult to handle as Subs don't have any guns or small munitions in general. And they definitely can't fire the torpedoes at these tiny things because they have very limited number of armaments.

If not deployed alone , they should atleast be sent ahead of the main subs to clear their paths and take out small vessels and may be helis. and can also confuse main subs as they would find it tough to attack which one first, the nearer mini-subs or the farther major sub, kind of a checkmate kinda' situation.

It should look something like this,

What do you think guys??????
*Its just an imaginary piece of idea just waiting to see the response of the people. Nothing that has been planned or related to the current topic. *