Indian RFP for six new-generation submarines

[CONNAN]

$11 billion second line of submarines for Indian Navy to boost private sector

http://www.8ak.in/

14 Jul 2010 8ak: On 26 Sep 2008 a Pakistani shipyard successfully launched the first Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) submarine in the Indian Ocean, the third of its Khalid Class - Agosta 90B submarines. China meanwhile has 62 submarines of which 10 are nuclear powered.

At the same time, NDTV reports that India will be left with only 9 old submarines by 2012 as two Russian foxtrots will be decommissioned by next year. So on 6 Jul 2010 when Indian Defence Minister A. K. Antony approved a second line of submarines - Project 75(I) to be constructed in India at a cost of 50,000 crore (US$11 billion), it came as a good surprise, doubly so because it is expected to boost private sector contribution in naval projects. In this regard, Manu Sood, Editor 8ak interviewed Maj Gen (retd) Bhupinder Yadav, who heads a small group of retired ex-servicemen in a Defence and Aerospace consulting company Q-tech Synergy.

8ak: How many submarines does the Indian Navy plan to have?

Yadav: The Indian Navy proposes to have a mix of twenty-four nuclear and conventional submarines of the SSK type. With 6 Scorpene and a further 6 Project-75(I) , the remaining 12 subs will be of an indigenous design.

The Indian navy is also planning to build micro-submarines for its strategic operations. An RFP was issued in Nov 2009 to Indian shipyards including Hindustan Shipyards Limited, ABG and Pipavav shipyards, Larsen & Toubro and state-owned Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL). Indian Navy is planning to get five of these vessels at a cost of about $80 million but the inductions can be doubled later on.

8ak: Why is the price almost US$2 billion per submarine whereas strategypage reports US$350 for an AIP submarine?

Yadav: The 2005, Scorpene diesel submarines deal was signed, with an option for 6 more and extensive technology transfer agreements was reported as being in excess of $4 billion. The Proj 75(I) is a Rs 50,000 crore ($10.7 bn) project for building six vessels. These will be new submarine and not the Scorpene and will be a bigger submarine with specific features with key differentiator being a new class of missiles, having some features from the HDW Type 214, the Russian Amur class, the Italian Fincantieri S-1000 in collaboration with Rubin of Russia. The extra cost could be for the new design that will allow the incorporation of future technologies, stealth features, missiles, transfer of technology, Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) and land attack capabilities.

8ak: Why did India not go in for a nuclear submarine instead of diesel electric?

Yadav: The utility of conventional diesel-electric submarines with the introduction of AIP (air-independent propulsion) systems like the French company DCNS' MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) and German fuel cells, even the durations they can stay underwater can be increased substantially. They also have the added advantages of being smaller and cheaper than nuclear submarines. Another reason could have been the recent accident on Submarines both in Russia and India.

8ak: Why are others like Fincanteri, BAE Systems and US manufacturers not in the deal?

Yadav: RFI was sent to French DCNS, Spanish Navantia, Russian Rubin, Italy's Fincantieri and German HDW (now owned by Thyssenkrup). Great Britain and America only build nuclear submarines and not diesel electric.

8ak: The RFI was written up a couple of years ago, so why the delay?

Yadav: RFI was issued on 27 October 2008 for six diesel-electric attack submarines to be built in Indian shipyard, public or private, with special emphasis on full transfer of technology. The subs were to be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) boosting their operational capabilities to have high degree of stealth, land-attack capability and ability to incorporate futuristic technologies. Since this will be a new type of submarine, the details and processing of project of this size does take time. Beside 3 reasons which delayed the project.

Some stray thought why not go for nuclear submarines, which has its own advantage and disadvantages such as vastly improved range and speeds, but are noisy hence no stealthy operations.
Time was also wasted on Pull and Push for this crucial programme by the public or private sector. Navy pressing to opt for a shipyard other than the Mazagon Docks, which has its hands full and has been delaying most of the projects.
Some friendly countries have been trying to put pressure that the additional submarine be procured from them. Hence the delay in RFP.

8ak: Why is the Indian private sector so enthusiastic about this announcement?

Yadav: Public sector shipyards like Mazgaon dock running at full capacity and behind schedule. L&T's excellent performance in the construction of the nuclear submarine and smaller submarine projects has given the Navy and the ministries the confidence in the private sector's ability to deliver quality vessels, systems and on deliver as per schedule. Minimum of one submarine will be built at a private shipyard and a some sub-systems will be supplied by the private sector boosting indigenous capabilities

 

[scrumpy]

Dupe: foxhound linked to this article before me.

 

[faithfulguy]

I don't understand, why so much secrecy on its capabilities?
I think they will be Hybrid subs with auto navigation, and having maximum stealth features. Linked to satellites for continuous monitoring of of sea passages, ready to attack hostile country from thousands of miles and carrying nuclear tipped ICBMs.
In short the hostile country will have no idea what hit them on the head and from where. In such a scenario imagine what six of them located at different positions on the globe will do.

The biggest question is, which country is ready to work on such a massive Hi Tech project? I think we all know Russia is still the big Daddy of Sub technology in the world, so is it another India Russia JV?

Hybrid of what technology. Also, what kind of ICBMs would it carry?

 

[chachachoudhary]

Hybrid of what technology. Also, what kind of ICBMs would it carry?

A secret missile called "Pralaya".

 

[Kinetic]

A secret missile called "Pralaya".

Chachaji, why are you revealing official secrets?

8ak: Why is the price almost US$2 billion per submarine whereas strategypage reports US$350 for an AIP submarine?

Yadav: The 2005, Scorpene diesel submarines deal was signed, with an option for 6 more and extensive technology transfer agreements was reported as being in excess of $4 billion. The Proj 75(I) is a Rs 50,000 crore ($10.7 bn) project for building six vessels. These will be new submarine and not the Scorpene and will be a bigger submarine with specific features with key differentiator being a new class of missiles, having some features from the HDW Type 214, the Russian Amur class, the Italian Fincantieri S-1000 in collaboration with Rubin of Russia. The extra cost could be for the new design that will allow the incorporation of future technologies, stealth features, missiles, transfer of technology, Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) and land attack capabilities.

BTW it seems like new generation nuclear submarines like Barracuda class or Astute class cost less than $ 2 billion. Latest Russian SSBN Borie submarine costs less than $ 1 billion. Now what technologies on a SSK makes it $ 1.73 billion a piece?

Stealth features: Every new submarines have this capability.

Missile: !!! Even Kilo can fire missile. Long range cruise missile? That is not something new.

ToT: lol.

AIP: MESMA or fuel cell? These are not anything new. Submarines like Scorpene or U-214 have it.

LACM: Already mentioned.

I am sure that there should be something more important related to the sub deal otherwise its the greatest scandal in the history Indian arms procurement.

 

[Guynextdoor]

Chachaji, why are you revealing official secrets?



BTW it seems like new generation nuclear submarines like Barracuda class or Astute class cost less than $ 2 billion. Latest Russian SSBN Borie submarine costs less than $ 1 billion. Now what technologies on a SSK makes it $ 1.73 billion a piece?

Stealth features: Every new submarines have this capability.

Missile: !!! Even Kilo can fire missile. Long range cruise missile? That is not something new.

ToT: lol.

AIP: MESMA or fuel cell? These are not anything new. Submarines like Scorpene or U-214 have it.

LACM: Already mentioned.

I am sure that there should be something more important related to the sub deal otherwise its the greatest scandal in the history Indian arms procurement.

Exactly my question. Even ATVs are cheaper, so why this exhorbitant cost?

 

[ejaz007]

India Approves $10.7bn Submarine Deal
14 July 2010


The Indian Defence Ministry has approved a Rs500bn ($10.7bn) project to build six new-generation submarines for the Indian Navy.

Under the programme, which is codenamed Project-75 India (P-75I), all six diesel electric submarines will be built with air-independent propulsion systems and incorporate stealth, land-attack capability and a wide range of next-generation technologies, according to the Times of India.

The request for proposal will be issued to global submarine manufacturers, including Rosoboronexport of Russia, DCNS/Armaris of France, HDW of Germany and Navantia of Spain.

The construction cost for each of the six submarines will be around Rs85bn ($1.8bn).

Three of the six submarines will be built at Mazagon Docks (MDL) in Mumbai. One will be built at Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam, in cooperation with a foreign company.

The remaining two submarines are expected to be directly imported from the foreign collaborator or constructed at a private shipyard in India.

The first submarine under P-75I is expected to be launched in six to seven years, according to a defence official.

Currently, the Indian Navy operates an aging fleet of 15 diesel-electric submarines. It is scheduled to commission six French Scorpene submarines being built at MDL under the ongoing Project-75 from 2012.

India Approves $10.7bn Submarine Deal - Naval Technology

 

[faithfulguy]

I think India learned from MRCA deal that a big number can sway sellers not to sell to Pakistan. But this amount doesn't make sense. So its just a trick to entice others not to sell to Pakistan.

 

[amit27]

I think India learned from MRCA deal that a big number can sway sellers not to sell to Pakistan. But this amount doesn't make sense. So its just a trick to entice others not to sell to Pakistan.

No trick just depends on the level of tech transfer u get hense why the amount can seem high.

Remember Brazil signed a $12bn deal with france for high level of tech transfer for the Scorpene submarines to aid their nuclear sub program, at this moment in time we dont know what India will get with these new batch of subs.

 

[Super Falcon]

well congrats to all indians but in sppeches your leaders should not say that they want peace in the region everday you buy weapons and destabilze the power of region when indian common civilian living in ditch how can india buy weapons after weapons as they buying a toys good to buy weapons no doubt but if public is living on 1 dollar a day it is not good to buy billions of dollars weapons on dailly bases if i hurted you im sorry im never against india buying weapons

 

[faithfulguy]

well congrats to all indians but in sppeches your leaders should not say that they want peace in the region everday you buy weapons and destabilze the power of region when indian common civilian living in ditch how can india buy weapons after weapons as they buying a toys good to buy weapons no doubt but if public is living on 1 dollar a day it is not good to buy billions of dollars weapons on dailly bases if i hurted you im sorry im never against india buying weapons

Honestly, this was how Soviet Union was dissolved. They care more about military and neglected the basic needs of the masses. The economy was not able to sustain the military spending while the people go hungray. But as the USSR was a dictatorship and gulogs for people that rebels, there was not a lot of rebellion.

On the other hand, India is a democracy. So there is a lot of rebellion when this happens. Even though the rate of economy growth is high, the power is concerntrated in the hands of the few elites. India has only 1/4 of economy of both China and Japan but it has more billionaires than these two countries. At the same time, India has more people in poverty than these two countries. That figure just shows the disparaity.

The amount spending in the subs is just way too outrageous. A lot of these money should go help the poor. The way it is right now, its no point of protecting the nation from internal threat when so many internal threats and long term crisis are no resolved.

 

[Archie]

Well , Faithfulguy , no one in india is going to bloody care about defence expenditure , as long as it remains under 2.5 % of GDP , which it is at present.

It is not like that the govt does not spend money on poor , it actually does
Last Year the subsidy Bill of the govt was Rs 5 lac crore , which translate into 108Billion $ , NOW THIS AMOUNT INCLUDED DIRECT CASH SUBSIDY AS WELL AS TAX DEDUCTION.

Compared to that the defence budget last year was 28 billion USD
More likely , people and the media will question as to why the govt act so slow in defence acqusition , most pakistani on this forum redicule india for taking far too much time in making such decision
Even this submarine contract was aproved after a 3 yr delay , and u guys already know about the MRCA contract , where the first jet is expected to be inducted after 10 yrs of decision making and trials , in 2014 , if every thing go as per plan

 

[Dash]

well congrats to all indians but in sppeches your leaders should not say that they want peace in the region everday you buy weapons and destabilze the power of region when indian common civilian living in ditch how can india buy weapons after weapons as they buying a toys good to buy weapons no doubt but if public is living on 1 dollar a day it is not good to buy billions of dollars weapons on dailly bases if i hurted you im sorry im never against india buying weapons

We shouldnt have this discussion on Programs running on poor in Submarine section. PLease let me know what is teh right section so that I can enlighten you on this.

I will also tell you how budget is distributed and funds are gathered to make any spending.

Honestly, this was how Soviet Union was dissolved. They care more about military and neglected the basic needs of the masses. The economy was not able to sustain the military spending while the people go hungray. But as the USSR was a dictatorship and gulogs for people that rebels, there was not a lot of rebellion.

On the other hand, India is a democracy. So there is a lot of rebellion when this happens. Even though the rate of economy growth is high, the power is concerntrated in the hands of the few elites. India has only 1/4 of economy of both China and Japan but it has more billionaires than these two countries. At the same time, India has more people in poverty than these two countries. That figure just shows the disparaity.

The amount spending in the subs is just way too outrageous. A lot of these money should go help the poor. The way it is right now, its no point of protecting the nation from internal threat when so many internal threats and long term crisis are no resolved.

A lot of money is actually going to the poor.
and secondly Internal threats and Crisis are there in all countries. tell me one country where internal crisis is "Not" there.

You actually want to derail the thread by bringing a topic on poor population in India. If you want to discuss the Submarine costs then please...

Else keep the poor out of this.

 

[Archie]

well congrats to all indians but in sppeches your leaders should not say that they want peace in the region everday you buy weapons and destabilze the power of region when indian common civilian living in ditch how can india buy weapons after weapons as they buying a toys good to buy weapons no doubt but if public is living on 1 dollar a day it is not good to buy billions of dollars weapons on dailly bases if i hurted you im sorry im never against india buying weapons

And yeah , what is pakistan doing , last heard that it was negotiating with the chinese for 3-4 subs

Now considering that pakistan is 7 times smaller than india in all aspect , be it land mass , population , economy , even the maritime border ,
should'nt its arm forces also be 7 times smaller than india , but it is not , it is only 2-3 times smaller .
THATS COZ PAKISTAN SPENDS 5-6% OF GDP ON DEFENCE WHILE ITS ECONOMY IS IN CRISIS ,WHILE INDIA SPENDS ABOUT 2.5% ONDEFENCE WHILE ITS ECONOMY IS BOOMING
Now if pakistan can go on to operate a fleet of 7 subs (3 agosta 90b , 4 chinese) or even 10 as some posters have said , by 2020 then shouldnt India be allowed to operate a fleet of 16-18 subs in 2020 .

And if you still dont get it , then india also have to consider china in its doctrine , same as pakistani generals consider israel as its SECONDARY ENEMY

 

[airuah]

i think the navy wants something in the likes of the su30mki(russian plane with western avionics.......as mentioned

we already are gonna have scorpenes,
we have russia,s kilos
and the german HD209....

they are the best in their class....so if we want something better we have to create a better sub from scratch...(with jv ofcourse )....which would have features of all the above subs+some advanced futuristic tech....
probably the missile(hope it to be a submarine launchable agni 3) in question is ready and we may expect some tests soon......