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Indian RFP for six new-generation submarines

Dude you are getting it wrong.

1) I said modified version of SMX-24 to meet IN requirements.

2) We have that much money to spend on defence. If national security is in stake than where those money will go?? But here the question is better utilization of our resources. Our military loves latest-best technologies as well as foreign maals. Like $ 5.4 billion for buying ten C-17 and now $ 11 billion for six submarines. We should spend those money in better way.

Ofcourse we have money NOW..but is it justified to spend more than a billion dollars on a submarine just to get some technology when we know we cant use them.And especially when a similar sub is available in ~300mil.
I guess with economic development in this govt. we will see corruption in defence ministry and such decisions more frequently.
what we need is faster delivery of quality sub. and what we will get will be another saga of scandals leading to huge cost escalations and delivery of 6 submarines spanning well over 15 years.:hitwall:
 
Ofcourse we have money NOW..but is it justified to spend more than a billion dollars on a submarine just to get some technology when we know we cant use them.And especially when a similar sub is available in ~300mil.
I guess with economic development in this govt. we will see corruption in defence ministry and such decisions more frequently.
what we need is faster delivery of quality sub. and what we will get will be another saga of scandals leading to huge cost escalations and delivery of 6 submarines spanning well over 15 years.:hitwall:

yaar thats what I was saying from my first post in this thread.

Politicians and Babus will get kick backs, its very normal but the question is how much they want? Scorpene investigation is not over, I guess, while another one billion+ dollar are needed to complete the project than the money allocated initially and the project also delayed nearly three years. What to say!!!! :angry:

CBI wants ban on six new firms most of those are competing for IA's artillery deals. If politicians and babus were not on work than to whom they were paying??!!!
 
I hope we think innovative and with a vision for the future before we make a purchase in haste.......maybe half of the subs should be small and large compact automatics subs......loaded with nukes..... the only problem area would be Communications with sub, an area for security infiltration/obstacle/concern. But the research and acquisition is not enough, we getting better but must concentrate to have FLUID Dynamic strategic planning to current and future problems....we have a highly myopic view on sometimes done intentionally by our own politicians. Anytime thats is for another post....


TO kinetic
We have to spend money on military. Don't fool yourself, we can always do a lot better but if dont defend our land we will be fight we will get overran like most of North India....and in order to defend the only way is to plan and be in a dominant position of power....dont ever forget that.....even Ashoka did that



Honestly I feel our aircraft carriers are sitting ducks in any future conflicts.....we need inexpensive floating flat barges designed on top of a catamaran hull with added defensive offensive and defense. Any future conflict that locks horns may be supplied by Chinese ballistic tech ...Our future indigenous research should be concentrated on multiple fronts based on "SHIELD" Technology kinda of like sci-fi



Sorry If I offend anyone....feel free to respond and I shall form a completely current and futuristic viewpoint based on
 
I hope we think innovative and with a vision for the future before we make a purchase in haste.......maybe half of the subs should be small and large compact automatics subs......loaded with nukes..... the only problem area would be Communications with sub, an area for security infiltration/obstacle/concern. But the research and acquisition is not enough, we getting better but must concentrate to have FLUID Dynamic strategic planning to current and future problems....we have a highly myopic view on sometimes done intentionally by our own politicians. Anytime thats is for another post....


TO kinetic
We have to spend money on military. Don't fool yourself, we can always do a lot better but if dont defend our land we will be fight we will get overran like most of North India....and in order to defend the only way is to plan and be in a dominant position of power....dont ever forget that.....even Ashoka did that

Before commenting read all the posts first. Don't comment on reading single post.

"We have that much money to spend on defence. If national security is in stake than where those money will go?? But here the question is better utilization of our resources. Our military loves latest-best technologies as well as foreign maals. Like $ 5.4 billion for buying ten C-17 and now $ 11 billion for six submarines. We should spend those money in better way. "

Honestly I feel our aircraft carriers are sitting ducks in any future conflicts.....we need inexpensive floating flat barges designed on top of a catamaran hull with added defensive offensive and defense. Any future conflict that locks horns may be supplied by Chinese ballistic tech ...Our future indigenous research should be concentrated on multiple fronts based on "SHIELD" Technology kinda of like sci-fi



Sorry If I offend anyone....feel free to respond and I shall form a completely current and futuristic viewpoint based on

Catamaran hulls will not give us power projection that aircraft carriers can give.

If China has so called ASBM than we also have BMD. But does China has answer to Brahmos or Brahmos-2?

Our carriers are the biggest and most crucial asset of our navy. If used properly can change the course of war by attacking enemy fleets at long distances and far from our shores. We can depend more on carriers than catamaran hull against China.
 
The submarine deal that bankrupted Greece.

As Greece slashes spending to avoid default, it hasn't moved to skimp on one area: defense.

The deeply indebted Mediterranean nation, whose financial crisis roiled the global financial system this year, is spending more than a billion euros on two submarines from Germany.

It's also looking to spend big on six frigates and 15 search-and-rescue helicopters from France. In recent years, Greece has bought more than two dozen F16 fighter jets from the U.S. at a cost of more than €1.5 billion.

Much of the equipment comes from Germany, the country that has had to shoulder most of the burden of bailing out Greece and has been loudest in condemning Athens for living beyond its means. German Chancellor Angela Merkel has admonished the Greek government "to do its homework" on debt reduction.


The military deals illustrate how Germany and other creditors have in some ways benefited from Greece's profligacy, and how that is coming back to haunt them.


Greece, with a population of just 11 million, is the largest importer of conventional weapons in Europe—and ranks fifth in the world behind China, India, the United Arab Emirates and South Korea. Its military spending is the highest in the European Union as a percentage of gross domestic product. That spending was one of the factors behind
Greece's stratospheric national debt.

The German submarine deal in particular, announced in March as the country lurched toward bankruptcy, has cast a spotlight on the Greek military budget and on the foreign vendors supplying the hardware. The deal includes a total of six subs in a complicated transaction that began a decade ago with German firms.

The arms sales are drawing heat from Turkey, Greece's neighbor an arch-rival. "Even those countries trying to help Greece at this time of difficulty are offering to sell them new military equipment," said Egemen Bagis, Turkey's top European Union negotiator, shortly after the sub deal was announced. "Greece doesn't need new tanks or missiles or submarines or fighter planes, neither does Turkey."

Greece's deputy prime minister, Theodore Pangalos, said during an Athens visit in May by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan that he felt "forced to buy weapons we do not need," and that the deals made him feel "national shame."
Other European officials have charged France and Germany with making their military dealings with Greece a condition of their participation in the country's huge financial rescue. French and German officials deny the accusations.

A spokesman for German Chancellor Merkel says the submarine transaction was the culmination of an old contract signed long before Greece's debt crisis. In May, France's defense ministry said Greek authorities have confirmed their willingness to pursue talks on several arm-procurement deals.

In May, Greece's economic crimes unit began investigating all weapons deals of the past decade—totaling about €16 billion—to determine if Greece overpaid or bought unnecessary hardware.
German prosecutors are investigating whether millions of euros in bribes were paid to Greek officials in connection with the sub deal. In May, the chief executive of one of the German companies helping to build the submarines, called Ferrostaal AG, resigned amid the probe.

For some prominent Greeks, the latest submarine deal was the last straw. In late April, Stelios Fenekos, a 52-year-old vice admiral of the 22,000-person strong Greek Navy, resigned his position, bringing a three-decade Navy career to an end. He says he did so to protest the Greek defense minister's decision to purchase the subs, as well as other decisions taken in recent months that Mr. Fenekos considers "politically motivated."
"How can you say to people we are buying more subs at the same time we want you to cut your salaries and pensions?" says Adm. Fenekos, in his first interview with a reporter. He was referring to the government's 5% cut in most pensions and even deeper slashes to public-sector wages enacted in response to the crisis. The Greek Navy, he says, cannot afford to maintain the additional submarines. It currently has eight subs.

A spokesman for the Greek Ministry of Defense said Mr. Fenekos' resignation was accepted. In stepping down, "Mr. Fenekos did not refer to the submarine deal," he said.

From the Wall Street Journal

The Submarine Deals That Helped Sink Greece - WSJ.com

I hardly think that India will spend 1% of its GDP on a single deal like this one. But some times they are unpredictable.
 
2) We have that much money to spend on defence. If national security is in stake than where those money will go?? But here the question is better utilization of our resources.Our military loves latest-best technologies as well as foreign maals. Like $ 5.4 billion for buying ten C-17 and now $ 11 billion for six submarines. We should spend those money in better way.

Kinetic -- the deal for Globemasters havent been signed --have we ? In between i agree with your comments , seems like a lot of waste expenditure to me !!

If there's a backdoor deal going on then thats a different matter !
 
Something is wrong...

Either its careless reporting or we are analysing it in a wrong direction in the absense of some facts.

Better wait for more details.
 
Something is not right ..entire scorpene deal for 6 subs was for Rs 13000 crore , now a single sub is costing Rs 8500 crore??

Do you really think that we purchasing just 6 subs:disagree:
there is a bigger picture all of a sudden mad rush for modernisation drive in all three arms there is a much bigger picture to this..the navy specially we are discussing simply what we are seeing here but inside its something which will blow many minds off:agree:
anyways this is indeed a good news hopefully the subs will be delivered on time..:cheers:
 
why so costly????????????????????????????damn these are the prices of nuclear subs............
 
Do you really think that we purchasing just 6 subs:disagree:
there is a bigger picture all of a sudden mad rush for modernisation drive in all three arms there is a much bigger picture to this..the navy specially we are discussing simply what we are seeing here but inside its something which will blow many minds off:agree:
anyways this is indeed a good news hopefully the subs will be delivered on time..:cheers:

What can be the BIGGER PICTURE..? Most probably they will give us the techs. of Engine and AIP propulsion. When we know we are not going to make one of these why bother for this TOT.
 
Even our 40000 ton IAC-1 costs less than this submarine.

As Rosoboronexport (Russian), DCNS/Armaris (French), HDW (German) and Navantia (Spain) are participating than the submarines must be Amur-1650, Merlin, U-214 and S-80 variants. They better try variant of SMX-24 type submarine concepts from DCNS....

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What is there in S-80 to cost that much? It doesn't have VLS. It needs huge modifications. It will be a fun to see that India buying 6 Spanish submarines for $ 11 billion!!!!! French and German technologies are more matured than this.


Ministers and babus generally take bribes and kick-backs in hundred millions but this time it rises to billions of dollars. What an improvement..... Bravoooo!!! :hang2:

mmmm.. maybe the US should change the virginia class sub to a conventional sub if the price tag is over 10 bil.
 
What can be the BIGGER PICTURE..? Most probably they will give us the techs. of Engine and AIP propulsion. When we know we are not going to make one of these why bother for this TOT.

I totally agree with you that TOT is a waste of money if the technology is not put into good use or for future development.
 
Mr. Jha thanks for your Sweeeeets I took two Pices "sorry" Good How many submarine in 2020 any body teel me. I think it is new order not existing order
 
ToT is completely useless. You can't simply download the brains of all the scientists etc.
 
Something is not right ..entire scorpene deal for 6 subs was for Rs 13000 crore , now a single sub is costing Rs 8500 crore??

But you forget to include the escalated cost, i.e. that was not final cos + you are not including the inflation + you are forgetting the cost of full TOT which we have not received with french subs + new advance technologies which Germans will provide
 
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