INDIAN NAVY’S QUEST FOR AN INDIGENOUS AIRCRAFT CARRIER

[Abingdonboy]

Hi @IND151; that claim is supported by historical facts. The IN was able to get its first aircraft carrier and aircraft only in the face of some great opposition from the IAF. It happened only because the IN's plan for the Aircraft Carrier was blessed by Adm. Mountbatten as Viceroy then as GG of India. This POV was supported by the RN officers at the helm of the RIN at Independence. There was reason for that. The RN was drastically shrunk after WW 2 and the British Govt. and RN's plan was to "outsource" Maritime Security in South Asia to the IN. So the Fleet expansion plan considered 2 Carriers to be followed later by a third larger Fleet Carrier; making a total of 3. However it did not materialise for a number of reasons. First of all; India chose not to join any defense pact, please remember that the first overtures to join CENTO and SEATO was made to India; which India turned down. India even refused the efforts made by Britain to turn the Commonwealth into a Defence arrangement. Then India had no resources to make heavy capital investments in large ships and finally as Adm. Arun Prakash has explained; the RN needed to keep their own Carriers in light of the Korean war and Cold War scenario. Now that is as far as the potential source of Carriers is concerned. And for India, 1962 happened; so all thoughts and expenses got routed to the IA and to a lesser extent the IAF. The IN became an orphan.

Now re: the IAF opposition. The IAF's mantra was simple, "if it flies, it should be ours". The first IN air assets were incorporated into its Fleet Air Arm in 1953 as FRUs (Fleet Requirement Units) which could hardly be considered attack aircraft, the Fireflys and Shorts Sealand Amphibians. When the truncated plan for acquistion of a single Light carrier INS Vikrant came through; luckily for the IN, the IAF knew nothing about operating Ships esp carriers! So willy-nilly the ship's aircraft, the Sea-Hawks and Alizes came into IN control. But the first two helicopters assigned to Vikrant for 'plane-guard duties' were IAF Sikorsky-55s flown by IAF pilots. And might have remained that way. Luckily the IN selected the Allouette III helicopters for the role which at that time was a far-sighted and excellent choice which eventually was also accepted later by the IAF as its utility Helo. But the shore-based LRMR aircraft like the Liberators and later the Super Constellations remained with the IAF which flew them under the Bombay based MAO (Maritime Air Operations), the IAF steadfastly refused to transfer them to the IN till the time of ACM H.Moolgavkar and Adm. Jal Cursetji, when it was finally effected. But that was probably precipitated by the fact that the IN had made a good case for and succeded in proposing the acquisition of MR/ASW aircraft of its own the Il-38s from Soviet Union. The IAF has had a stubborn history of not wanting to part with its air assets. Now the IA is undergoing the same process that the IN had to undergo.

Having seen the RAF/RN turf wars up close here in the UK. It still impresses me to this day that the IN has been able to make its case for their own ASW/MPA and carrier fighters and won. Right up until they were cut from service the UK's entire Nimrod MPA fleet and most of the Harrier force belonged to the RAF and not the RN.


Some very sensible thinking prevailed in India a long time ago and we are seeing the benefits of this today.

 

[sancho]

Some very sensible thinking prevailed in India a long time ago and we are seeing the benefits of this today.

Some might be, but the forces still act like spoild children when it comes to these assets and MoD is not strong enough as a father, to keep them in check. Which is a big problem, since that's why Indian maritime attack and coastal defence, just like the helicoopter fleet is still in the hand of IAF, instead of IN and IA.
But there are points in return as well, since it's questionable if all the money we spend in the last decades to operate carriers was worth it, of if IN should had focused on more vessels and SSKs instead, which would have been more than enough for the enemies of that time.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Some might be, but the forces still act like spoild children when it comes to these assets and MoD is not strong enough as a father, to keep them in check. Which is a big problem, since that's why Indian maritime attack and coastal defence, just like the helicoopter fleet is still in the hand of IAF, instead of IN and IA.
But there are points in return as well, since it's questionable if all the money we spend in the last decades to operate carriers was worth it, of if IN should had focused on more vessels and SSKs instead, which would have been more than enough for the enemies of that time.

True but it is what it is. In the long term these issues shall be sorted out most likely. As it stands the situation is not as bad as it could be or is in other armed forces around the world.


Next on the list should be the IAF's Heavy lift and most of its medium lift helos being transferred to the IA.

 

[MST]

I don't know about greatness, But he is visionary. Ppl like him are behind true Blue-Water capability (which we may achieve in 5-10 years)..


These Navy ppl knows that, "Capability can not be developed by buying foreign products."..


Unlike IAF (which is busy in bribe collection) Navy opted for Desi product over bribes...

Well IAF did support and induct HAL-24 Marut way back in 70s. So you can't say that. Though Marut failed due to lack of proper engine. And after IAF having burnt its fingers does seem reluctant of Desi products.

 

[nair]

Some might be, but the forces still act like spoild children when it comes to these assets and MoD is not strong enough as a father, to keep them in check. Which is a big problem, since that's why Indian maritime attack and coastal defence, just like the helicoopter fleet is still in the hand of IAF, instead of IN and IA.
But there are points in return as well, since it's questionable if all the money we spend in the last decades to operate carriers was worth it, of if IN should had focused on more vessels and SSKs instead, which would have been more than enough for the enemies of that time.

Absolutely right...... The only one reason "EGO" We all know what happened during early days of kargil.... those fights/arguments are still going.... May be having a COAS or Gen1 would solve the problem.... But for that our politicians and bureaucrats wont agree..... as they have some one above their ranks....

 

[Capt.Popeye]

True but it is what it is. In the long term these issues shall be sorted out most likely. As it stands the situation is not as bad as it could be or is in other armed forces around the world.


Next on the list should be the IAF's Heavy lift and most of its medium lift helos being transferred to the IA.

"Turf issues" are to be found the world over. India is no exception, it comes to the fore partly because: in the Indian context; no service is really pre-eminent. While say in Pakistan, the PA is Monarch of everything the other services can barely get in 'a word sideways'.Then the lack of a CDS structure in India just compounds matters. The rotational COSC tenure is only a figure-head. Even on the issue of the CDS, the IAF stand most of the time has been non-constructive. As it has been also in case of control of Strategic Forces. While Inter-Services co-operation has great increased in tactical operations; in case of policy formulation and execution, it is still deficient. For this the MoD and the RM himself is to blame. The closest that MoD came to exercising effective control was in the time of the Rajiv Gandhi regime when the then MoS(D) Arun Singh took on a pro-active and hands-on approach to management assisted by an effective of bureaucrats. Actually; the point is that bureaucrats usually reflect the approach of the RM himself. The earlier example of a pro-active RM was V.K. Krishna Menon who was an unmitigated disaster for the MoD in general and the Armed Forces in particular. His autocratic ways were largely to blame but even the Armed Forces then had scarcely got its act together then which made matters worse. In Indira Gandhi's era; the then RM was a shrewd operator who wisely understood that the PM (when necessary) wished to exercise direct control while on the other side, there was a very assertive COSC Gen.Maneckshaw who was no pushover. So he confined his work to being an active facilitator. That was pretty much the case in 1965 with Lal Bahadur Shastri and Y.B.Chavan being the 'dramatis personae' . At that time Gen.J.N.Chaudhuri was COSC (which role was ceded to him by V/Adm.Soman who was CNS), but "Muchu" Chaudhuri was higher on form than on function.

Therefore, the issue is less of control of assets etc. than of clearer enunciation of policies and their execution.

 

[IND151]

Hi @IND151; that claim is supported by historical facts. The IN was able to get its first aircraft carrier and aircraft only in the face of some great opposition from the IAF. It happened only because the IN's plan for the Aircraft Carrier was blessed by Adm. Mountbatten as Viceroy then as GG of India. This POV was supported by the RN officers at the helm of the RIN at Independence. There was reason for that. The RN was drastically shrunk after WW 2 and the British Govt. and RN's plan was to "outsource" Maritime Security in South Asia to the IN. So the Fleet expansion plan considered 2 Carriers to be followed later by a third larger Fleet Carrier; making a total of 3. However it did not materialise for a number of reasons. First of all; India chose not to join any defense pact, please remember that the first overtures to join CENTO and SEATO was made to India; which India turned down. India even refused the efforts made by Britain to turn the Commonwealth into a Defence arrangement. Then India had no resources to make heavy capital investments in large ships and finally as Adm. Arun Prakash has explained; the RN needed to keep their own Carriers in light of the Korean war and Cold War scenario. Now that is as far as the potential source of Carriers is concerned. And for India, 1962 happened; so all thoughts and expenses got routed to the IA and to a lesser extent the IAF. The IN became an orphan.

Now re: the IAF opposition. The IAF's mantra was simple, "if it flies, it should be ours". The first IN air assets were incorporated into its Fleet Air Arm in 1953 as FRUs (Fleet Requirement Units) which could hardly be considered attack aircraft, the Fireflys and Shorts Sealand Amphibians. When the truncated plan for acquistion of a single Light carrier INS Vikrant came through; luckily for the IN, the IAF knew nothing about operating Ships esp carriers! So willy-nilly the ship's aircraft, the Sea-Hawks and Alizes came into IN control. But the first two helicopters assigned to Vikrant for 'plane-guard duties' were IAF Sikorsky-55s flown by IAF pilots. And might have remained that way. Luckily the IN selected the Allouette III helicopters for the role which at that time was a far-sighted and excellent choice which eventually was also accepted later by the IAF as its utility Helo. But the shore-based LRMR aircraft like the Liberators and later the Super Constellations remained with the IAF which flew them under the Bombay based MAO (Maritime Air Operations), the IAF steadfastly refused to transfer them to the IN till the time of ACM H.Moolgavkar and Adm. Jal Cursetji, when it was finally effected. But that was probably precipitated by the fact that the IN had made a good case for and succeded in proposing the acquisition of MR/ASW aircraft of its own the Il-38s from Soviet Union. The IAF has had a stubborn history of not wanting to part with its air assets. Now the IA is undergoing the same process that the IN had to undergo.

Thanks for info

I didn't know we had liberators

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Thanks for info

I didn't know we had liberators

Oh yes, we did. That is another interesting story in itself. When the IAF was formed post-independence, it later felt the need (around 1948 after the first Kashmir War) to have some bombers in its fleet. The RAF offered the Lancaster while the Americans offered the B-25s which were surplus with them. The IAF rejected that offer because they were considered to be less capable and more so since they were not worth the cost. Then somebody remembered that B-24 Liberators transferred to the RAF by the US were lying about at various airfields in India but most notably at Chakeri near Kanpur. When the RAF was leaving India, its personnel were instructed to destroy all of them since it was not worth while to fly them out. So the RAF men got to work with Shovels, Pickaxes and even a Bull-dozer or something like that. But they were more in a hurry to leave the country, so the job was not thoroughly done and they were not completely destroyed . Now when the idea of Bomber acquistions came up, somebody thought of them. While they were not completely destroyed, they were by no means fly-worthy.
Then the people at Hindustan Aircraft Ltd. (the earlier name of Hindustan Aeronautics when it was a Pvt. Co. owned by Walchand Hirachand) was referred to. Since the B-24 Liberators (among other aircraft like Dakotas, Catalinas, Dauntless Avengers etc) were being overhauled and maintained by them. The staff there were found to be very familiar with the aircraft, so a project was initiated to cannibalize and return to service whichever aircraft among them could be salvaged. The HAL sent a team to Chakeri who salvaged bits and pieces of aircraft and render them somehow to basic flying condition so that they could be flown to Bangalore.
Before HAL was consulted, actually the Americans were contacted for the salvage job. But the reaction was ranging from too difficult/not worth it to an exorbitant quote for the job, that is when HAL came in. Since the major part of the work had to be done in Bangalore, the aircraft had to some-how reach there. Sending them in knocked-down form by Rail/Road was thought to be too difficult/time consuming. Hence the idea of trying to fly them from Kanpur to Bangalore came up.
American Ferry Pilots asked too much for the job, so they were ruled out. That is when the CTP (Chief Test Pilot of HAL) Capt.Jamshed (Jimmy) Kaikobad Munshi came in. He agreed to do the ferry job for which he was offered a good bonus for each aircraft ferried. He did not agree to that, so the offer was increased. He turned that down too, saying that he was already paid enough by HAL and would do it for no extra payment! 42 aircraft were some-how patched up and flown by Jimmy Munshi (sometimes accompanied by his wife) to Bangalore where they underwent a comprehensive O/Haul and rebuild. Later an American Pilot who had flown Libs in the War had an opportunity to fly one of them. In his opinion, HAL had done a great job and it was in better condition than some of the aircraft that he had flown with the USAAF.
Eventually about 35 aircraft were given to the IAF and the IAF raised its first Bomber Squadron, No.5 Sqn. in Nov 1948. Later another No.6 Sqn. was raised in 1951, each with 16 aircraft. Later a third No.16 Sqn. was formed with only three aircraft for training. As Bombers, the Libs had a short life; till the Canberras came to the IAF in 1957. Then the remaining Liberators were turned into LRMR aircraft for which they were fitted with a ASV-15 Radar under the belly. They could also carry Depth-Charges.
The Liberators were finally retired from this role in 1968 when they were replaced by the Super Constellations. The IAF was the last Air Force in the world to fly Liberators. Subsequently 5 Liberators were gifted to Museums in USA, Canada and the UK. The IAF has one in its own Museum in Palam.

I have memories of these aircraft flying in and out of the Lohegaon AFB with their noisy Pratt & Whitney Radial Engines that could be heard from miles around. Great looking aircraft, whether in the air or on the ground.

 

[Tshering22]

Well IAF did support and induct HAL-24 Marut way back in 70s. So you can't say that. Though Marut failed due to lack of proper engine. And after IAF having burnt its fingers does seem reluctant of Desi products.

Aircraft is a powerful technology that would take years to evolve in terms of sophistication. Only by giving it a chance can the IAF get a superior product.

Our Naval shipyards didn't descend from Martian technology.... they also worked just like DRDO and HAL did and the Naval administration put their trust and patience in them. IN the end, their patience paid off.

IAF is like a fussy teenage girl; wants everything but won't give anything.

Army is even worse.

 

[Beerbal]

@sancho, @Abingdonboy, @manindra, @Koovie, @janon

1. Aircrafts are best platform for "Upari Kamai (bribe)". No one ask you question if you buy 1 Rupees bolt at 1000 rs. 500 Rs will go to Politicians, 200 to manufactur and 300 Rupees goes to agent (Relatives of powerful corrupt officers). We all know (apart from age) why our MiGs taking life of our pilots.

2. Expertise doesn't come in a day. It's an evolutionary process. Have you guys grown a tree?? when the tree is small we need to work hard, We need to protect it from cattle and weather. When the same tree grow big we don't need to water it weekly.. IN nurtured desi production facility, they are reaping the fruit.

While IAF and IA curbed the desi ambition long ago and today they are looking for fruit.

3. @sancho : once you asked me, "Are u wiser than IAF generals?", My answer is ," No I am not wiser than them, but what is the use of this wisdom, when they are short of Squadron?". If they are so wise why they are short of 30-40% Squadron???



You guys look around you, The corrupt deals are done by generals thru there relative, The politicians-corrupt generals-dalal(most of time relative of officers) are killing desi ambition...

Well IAF did support and induct HAL-24 Marut way back in 70s. So you can't say that. Though Marut failed due to lack of proper engine. And after IAF having burnt its fingers does seem reluctant of Desi products.

I was not born that time, I have no idea what killed Marut... I will find out the true story for you.. Its and "action item" for me.

I will bring the true story after some research and after meeting some person who have seen that bird,...

 

[Beerbal]

Aircraft is a powerful technology that would take years to evolve in terms of sophistication. Only by giving it a chance can the IAF get a superior product.

Our Naval shipyards didn't descend from Martian technology.... they also worked just like DRDO and HAL did and the Naval administration put their trust and patience in them. IN the end, their patience paid off.

IAF is like a fussy teenage girl; wants everything but won't give anything.

Army is even worse.

Well said bro..

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I was not born that time, I have no idea what killed Marut... I will find out the true story for you.. Its and "action item" for me.

I will bring the true story after some research and after meeting some person who have seen that bird,...

I'll tell you what killed the HF-24 Marut. Lack of a suitable engine(s). By the time a suitable engine came up for consideration- the RR Adour, the Marut was out of date. But in its time the Marut was designed to very sound considerations; which became the design parameters for the Jaguar.

 

[Koovie]

@sancho, @Abingdonboy, @manindra, @Koovie, @janon

1. Aircrafts are best platform for "Upari Kamai (bribe)". No one ask you question if you buy 1 Rupees bolt at 1000 rs. 500 Rs will go to Politicians, 200 to manufactur and 300 Rupees goes to agent (Relatives of powerful corrupt officers). We all know (apart from age) why our MiGs taking life of our pilots.

2. Expertise doesn't come in a day. It's an evolutionary process. Have you guys grown a tree?? when the tree is small we need to work hard, We need to protect it from cattle and weather. When the same tree grow big we don't need to water it weekly.. IN nurtured desi production facility, they are reaping the fruit.

While IAF and IA curbed the desi ambition long ago and today they are looking for fruit.

3. @sancho : once you asked me, "Are u wiser than IAF generals?", My answer is ," No I am not wiser than them, but what is the use of this wisdom, when they are short of Squadron?". If they are so wise why they are short of 30-40% Squadron???

1.) "We all know (apart from age) why our MiGs taking life of our pilots." - What is that supposed to mean?

2.) Building ship hulls and fighter jets cannot be compared. Aviation technology is the crown of a countries technological capabilities and it takes decades of slow, painful and unimaginable expensive experience to achieve the level of lets say Russian or American areonotical engineering level.

We dont have, and we cannot produce anything on same level for the next decades. And as of now, the IAF/MOD or whoever need to make decisions, since we cannot afford to buy licenses AND to pump in giant sums into desi production.

3.) Squadron strength will grow after some time again... though this process has been delayed. But thats not their fault. And they cannot ramdomly buy more planes from where ever they like to.... Its all about money again. They got a budget and they need to stick to it.

 

[Manindra]

@sancho, @Abingdonboy, @manindra, @Koovie, @janon

1. Aircrafts are best platform for "Upari Kamai (bribe)". No one ask you question if you buy 1 Rupees bolt at 1000 rs. 500 Rs will go to Politicians, 200 to manufactur and 300 Rupees goes to agent (Relatives of powerful corrupt officers). We all know (apart from age) why our MiGs taking life of our pilots.


2. Expertise doesn't come in a day. It's an evolutionary process. Have you guys grown a tree?? when the tree is small we need to work hard, We need to protect it from cattle and weather. When the same tree grow big we don't need to water it weekly.. IN nurtured desi production facility, they are reaping the fruit.

While IAF and IA curbed the desi ambition long ago and today they are looking for fruit.

3. @sancho : once you asked me, "Are u wiser than IAF generals?", My answer is ," No I am not wiser than them, but what is the use of this wisdom, when they are short of Squadron?". If they are so wise why they are short of 30-40% Squadron???



You guys look around you, The corrupt deals are done by generals thru there relative, The politicians-corrupt generals-dalal(most of time relative of officers) are killing desi ambition...





I was not born that time, I have no idea what killed Marut... I will find out the true story for you.. Its and "action item" for me.

I will bring the true story after some research and after meeting some person who have seen that bird,...

1. Corruption is in all field in India not only in defence but situation is changing. Saint Antony is rigid against corruption then all experts says he is not suitable for defence ministry.
Our Migs fall from sky because all genuine suppliers of MIG during collapse of soviet union are bankrupt.

2. I am agree with you but the same people slams the defence ministry for too much ambitious about LCA , Kaveri , Nag , Trishul etc.

3. We are armchair Generals. We don't know what is real situation.

 

[Beerbal]

1.) "We all know (apart from age) why our MiGs taking life of our pilots." - What is that supposed to mean?

2.) Building ship hulls and fighter jets cannot be compared. Aviation technology is the crown of a countries technological capabilities and it takes decades of slow, painful and unimaginable expensive experience to achieve the level of lets say Russian or American areonotical engineering level.

We dont have, and we cannot produce anything on same level for the next decades. And as of now, the IAF/MOD or whoever need to make decisions, since we cannot afford to buy licenses AND to pump in giant sums into desi production.

3.) Squadron strength will grow after some time again... though this process has been delayed. But thats not their fault. And they cannot ramdomly buy more planes from where ever they like to.... Its all about money again. They got a budget and they need to stick to it.

1. What I mean to say here is poor maintenance and fake spare parts are also reason behind MiG21 Accidents.

2. I know building Ships and Jets are not comparable, But much before we made any frigate/Destroyer we had made a fighter jet . Our expertise in making jets are more than making ships, so what happen that we lost that skill and ordered foreign product?

No rocket science bro, it was always about "Upari Kamai (Bribe)".

3. And you know the reason behind delay?? "Upari Kamai (Bribe)"... St Anthony (J Fernandis) vowed not to tolerate corrupt practices , The crusaders of corruption start delaying procurement..

Message is clear, if you (honest ppl) don't allow corruption, we(Dalal-Politician-Babu-Officers) will start sabotaging everything.. The file will not move unless money will pass (under table)...