INDIAN NAVY’S QUEST FOR AN INDIGENOUS AIRCRAFT CARRIER

[sancho]

These Navy ppl knows that, "Capability can not be developed by buying foreign products."..


Unlike IAF (which is busy in bribe collection) Navy opted for Desi product over bribes...

- foreign LR MPAs
- foreign MR MPAs
- foreign amphibious MPAs
- foreign SSKs
- foreign LDP/LHD
- foreign tankers (although Indian ship yards already produce them too)
- foreign naval LUH (instead of Dhruv)
- foreign naval MUH (instead of IMRH)
- foreign naval MALE drone (instead of Rustom H)

The reality is, that the forces can only buy indigenously, if we can offer something that is technically at the same level, which is not the case in many fields today. The naval industry might be in a better stage as the aero industry, but still India is and will remain to be dependent on foreign procurements, to keep the defence at a high level.

 

[Dillinger]

- foreign LR MPAs
- foreign MR MPAs
- foreign amphibious MPAs
- foreign SSKs
- foreign LDP/LHD
- foreign tankers (although Indian ship yards already produce them too)
- foreign naval LUH (instead of Dhruv)
- foreign naval MUH (instead of IMRH)
- foreign naval MALE drone (instead of Rustom H)

The reality is, that the forces can only buy indigenously, if we can offer something that is technically at the same level, which is not the case in many fields today. The naval industry might be in a better stage as the aero industry, but still India is and will remain to be dependent on foreign procurements, to keep the defence at a high level.

True. But he has a valid point. The IN does not shy away from actively getting involved from day one in projects by NPOL for example.

 

[IND151]

Well the Air Force in 1960 opposed the Navy's wish to have an aircraft carrier as they wanted all fighter and bomber assets to be under their control. However the Navy circumvented that by stating the ADS would protect the Fleet of missile destroyers better if it sailed with them and the aircrafts would be used for defensive roles and not offensive roles.

Any source for claim claim?

 

[janon]

the first tentative design that emerged was for a 20,000 ton carrier named the “air defence ship” or ADS (this was to avoid attention of the IAF which was opposed to ‘aircraft-carriers’)




IAF is the most evil branch of Indian armed forces.. They opposed Desi Carrier for NAVY, They opposed Desi LCH for Army (Armed aviation branch).


Both IA and NAVY should maintain there own fighter plane squadron. 5 Sqaud for IA (4 LCA Squad and 1 Rafael Squad), NAVY should have 5 Squad (3 Su30 MKI and 1 LCA, 1 Rafael) (along with regular carrierborn fighters)

You are coloring facts with a different hue by introducing the word "desi", and making it sound like the IAF was opposed to desi products. They did not oppose the aircraft carrier and LCH for being desi, but because they held the position that airborne assets should be under their domain. Now you may disagree with that position, but please don't make it sound like the IAF's opposition is to desi products as such. You made the same accusation in post number 10, and also made a blanket accusation them of being bribe takers.

They also opposed apaches for the army, not because it is desi (it isn't), but because of their conviction regarding who should control aviation assets. Desi or not has nothing to do with it, and please don't put out blanket statements about bribe taking unless you can substantiate it. That amounts to malicious slandering. If you unbiasedly observe facts, it is the army that has been caught in bribery the most, not the IAF.

 

[Koovie]

Unlike IAF (which is busy in bribe collection) Navy opted for Desi product over bribes...

What is this supposed to mean?

India does not have decades of aviation industry, we simply CANNOT produce equipment which is on the Russian, American or European level... Those countries were building aircraft since the beginnings of aviation and you think we can simply come up with a fighter which is on the same level?

Face it, Tejas is nowhere to the Sukhois, the Rafales, the Mig 29 UPG/ks, the Mirage 2000-5s and not to mention the FGFAs ....

And dont come u with the AMCA... its just an imaginary paper plane.

 

[Always Neutral]

Any source for claim claim?

The writer himself states it.

 

[sancho]

True. But he has a valid point. The IN does not shy away from actively getting involved from day one in projects by NPOL for example.

Neither does the IAF, but as said, the Indian aero industry is far behind the Indian naval industry and that is the reason why IAF currently can't get any useful ammount of indigenous stuff. That will change only within this decade, while the indigenous support of IN is often too hyped and as explained doesn't show the reality.

 

[Dillinger]

Neither does the IAF, but as said, the Indian aero industry is far behind the Indian naval industry and that is the reason why IAF currently can't get any useful ammount of indigenous stuff. That will change only within this decade, while the indigenous support of IN is often too hyped and as explained doesn't show the reality.

The indigenous support of the IN is hyped by people who conflate the term "indigenous" and its application to military procurement with completely switching over to domestic manufactures in totality. Otherwise i relative terms the IN is still better at its approach towards projects meant for its consumption and yet not being shy when it comes to putting its foot down..N-Dhruv being the example.

 

[Manindra]

IAF is the most evil branch of Indian armed forces.. They opposed Desi Carrier for NAVY, They opposed Desi LCH for Army (Armed aviation branch).


Both IA and NAVY should maintain there own fighter plane squadron. 5 Sqaud for IA (4 LCA Squad and 1 Rafael Squad), NAVY should have 5 Squad (3 Su30 MKI and 1 LCA, 1 Rafael) (along with regular carrierborn fighters)

Say directly , you want to dissolve IAF in IN & IA

 

[anant_s]

Very interesting article coming from someone who knows IN inside out.
Reading this article felt like deja-vu. It is utter misfortune of nation's armed forces that unless pushed to corner no importance is given to prior planning and executing. Be it he case of fighter jet purchase for IAF or basic armament for IA, we are always playing a catching up game.
Hope someday a person would challenge the way military preperation are done and bring in some radical changes. we do have some of the finest soldiers in the world, but they do need a nation's support to stay fighting fit.

 

[T90TankGuy]

Say directly , you want to dissolve IAF in IN & IA

you are arguing with a person who has no idea of defense related issues. what else do you expect?

 

[Nan Yang]

The Su-33, though more capable, being dimensionally larger would not only not fit in the smaller hangar of the 44,500 ton Gorshkov, but would have marginal wing-tip clearances from the island structure during deck launch. It was therefore decided that the Mig-29K would equip the Gorshkov, to be renamed INS Vikramaditya in Indian service.

So Mig-29 was chosen because the ship, Gorshkov was too small for the more capable Su-33 ?

 

[sancho]

So Mig-29 was chosen because the ship, Gorshkov was too small for the more capable Su-33 ?

Mainly, but the Su 33 in that version wasn't more capable, only if upgraded to a multi role version like the Su 30.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Unlike IAF (which is busy in bribe collection) Navy opted for Desi product over bribes...

Utter, utter nonsense. Do you think the IAF wouldn't be purchasing Indian products if they were developed and up to the reqesite standards? IAF officers are as patriotic as their IN counterparts and the IAF has been saying again how much they want indigenousation.

The fact is the IAF and IN both have very high standards when it comes to the equipment it orders and utilizes. If Indian companies cannot produce the equipment to the level they require does this mean the Indian military accept inferior products, to the detriment of national security, just so as to reward Indian firms who underachieve? Or do the military draw a line in the sand and say "you guys need to get to this standard before we even think about buying from you"?


Wrt IN vs IAF- it is a complete misnomer to say the IN massively favors indigenous products over the IAF. For both- if the Indian products are available and up to the mark then they'll order them- if not, they won't. The simple fact is, it is relatively easy to build a hull and especially for a nation like India but it is the internals of the ship that play the crucial role in its overall combat effectiveness and, here, the IN relies just as much on foreign firms as anyone else- almost all the "high-end" equipment found on IN ships are from abroad, from sensors to engines to gearboxes to EO systems to integrated bridges to main guns etc etc. IIRC the cost of foreign equipment massively outweighs the cost of the Indian hull and systems on any given Indian vessel.


The Indian maritime industry is only marginally more able than the Indian aerospace sector- they still are not able to deliver full systems with 100% Indian content.


When they need to- the IN is as open to foreign products as anyone else- P-8I, MR-MPA, MIG-29K, N-MMRCA etc etc, ring any bells?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Any source for claim claim?

Hi @IND151; that claim is supported by historical facts. The IN was able to get its first aircraft carrier and aircraft only in the face of some great opposition from the IAF. It happened only because the IN's plan for the Aircraft Carrier was blessed by Adm. Mountbatten as Viceroy then as GG of India. This POV was supported by the RN officers at the helm of the RIN at Independence. There was reason for that. The RN was drastically shrunk after WW 2 and the British Govt. and RN's plan was to "outsource" Maritime Security in South Asia to the IN. So the Fleet expansion plan considered 2 Carriers to be followed later by a third larger Fleet Carrier; making a total of 3. However it did not materialise for a number of reasons. First of all; India chose not to join any defense pact, please remember that the first overtures to join CENTO and SEATO was made to India; which India turned down. India even refused the efforts made by Britain to turn the Commonwealth into a Defence arrangement. Then India had no resources to make heavy capital investments in large ships and finally as Adm. Arun Prakash has explained; the RN needed to keep their own Carriers in light of the Korean war and Cold War scenario. Now that is as far as the potential source of Carriers is concerned. And for India, 1962 happened; so all thoughts and expenses got routed to the IA and to a lesser extent the IAF. The IN became an orphan.

Now re: the IAF opposition. The IAF's mantra was simple, "if it flies, it should be ours". The first IN air assets were incorporated into its Fleet Air Arm in 1953 as FRUs (Fleet Requirement Units) which could hardly be considered attack aircraft, the Fireflys and Shorts Sealand Amphibians. When the truncated plan for acquistion of a single Light carrier INS Vikrant came through; luckily for the IN, the IAF knew nothing about operating Ships esp carriers! So willy-nilly the ship's aircraft, the Sea-Hawks and Alizes came into IN control. But the first two helicopters assigned to Vikrant for 'plane-guard duties' were IAF Sikorsky-55s flown by IAF pilots. And might have remained that way. Luckily the IN selected the Allouette III helicopters for the role which at that time was a far-sighted and excellent choice which eventually was also accepted later by the IAF as its utility Helo. But the shore-based LRMR aircraft like the Liberators and later the Super Constellations remained with the IAF which flew them under the Bombay based MAO (Maritime Air Operations), the IAF steadfastly refused to transfer them to the IN till the time of ACM H.Moolgavkar and Adm. Jal Cursetji, when it was finally effected. But that was probably precipitated by the fact that the IN had made a good case for and succeded in proposing the acquisition of MR/ASW aircraft of its own the Il-38s from Soviet Union. The IAF has had a stubborn history of not wanting to part with its air assets. Now the IA is undergoing the same process that the IN had to undergo.