INDIAN NAVY’S QUEST FOR AN INDIGENOUS AIRCRAFT CARRIER

[Koovie]

1. What I mean to say here is poor maintenance and fake spare parts are also reason behind MiG21 Accidents.

2. I know building Ships and Jets are not comparable, But much before we made any frigate/Destroyer we had made a fighter jet . Our expertise in making jets are more than making ships, so what happen that we lost that skill and ordered foreign product?

No rocket science bro, it was always about "Upari Kamai (Bribe)".

3. And you know the reason behind delay?? "Upari Kamai (Bribe)"... St Anthony (J Fernandis) vowed not to tolerate corrupt practices , The crusaders of corruption start delaying procurement..

Message is clear, if you (honest ppl) don't allow corruption, we(Dalal-Politician-Babu-Officers) will start sabotaging everything.. The file will not move unless money will pass (under table)...

1.) Any more infos, sources, proofs, reports?

2.) When did we make a fighter jet???? If you are referring to the Marut, it was based on a plane devloped for Argentina by Kurt Tank, one of the most famous aircraft designers (he developed the legendary FW 190). When he came to India, he improved the plans and designed the plane which we became to know as the Marut. Besides, we never built an engine for it.

3.) Rafale negotiations will take their time, nothing else expected since we are talking about 20 billion USD, fullt ToT and 50% offset... such things cannot be negotiated fast.

The Tejas was the first fighter made by HAL and naturally they had problems in meeting the requirements and further more sanctions, economic problems and HALs bad project management also hindered the induction of the Tejas.

We cannot blame corruption or politicians for each bad thing here in India... its a typical mindset... just like some other people in our neighbour hood always come up with conspiracy theories.

 

[Beerbal]

1.) Any more infos, sources, proofs, reports?

2.) When did we make a fighter jet???? If you are referring to the Marut, it was based on a plane devloped for Argentina by Kurt Tank, one of the most famous aircraft designers (he developed the legendary FW 190). When he came to India, he improved the plans and designed the plane which we became to know as the Marut. Besides, we never built an engine for it.

3.) Rafale negotiations will take their time, nothing else expected since we are talking about 20 billion USD, fullt ToT and 50% offset... such things cannot be negotiated fast.

The Tejas was the first fighter made by HAL and naturally they had problems in meeting the requirements and further more sanctions, economic problems and HALs bad project management also hindered the induction of the Tejas.

We cannot blame corruption or politicians for each bad thing here in India... its a typical mindset... just like some other people in our neighbour hood always come up with conspiracy theories.

By closing eye one can't defy the truth... Truth is clear, Truth has came in boforse deal, T90 deal, Scorpeon deal, Jeep deal, Boot deal, tatra deal, Gorshakov deal and so on... still you want to live in deny..

No matter who designed it, It was an opportunity for IAF to have desi product, which IAF deliberately loose.

HAL Tejas never failed to meet requirement, rather the requirements were changed so that "Requirement doesn't meet LCA". When USA can induct F111A, F35 why IAF is shy??? (Only because LCA doesn't come with "Upari Kamai" and "prostitutes"..)

 

[janon]

By closing eye one can't defy the truth... Truth is clear, Truth has came in boforse deal, T90 deal, Scorpeon deal, Jeep deal, Boot deal, tatra deal, Gorshakov deal and so on... still you want to live in deny..

No matter who designed it, It was an opportunity for IAF to have desi product, which IAF deliberately loose.

HAL Tejas never failed to meet requirement, rather the requirements were changed so that "Requirement doesn't meet LCA". When USA can induct F111A, F35 why IAF is shy??? (Only because LCA doesn't come with "Upari Kamai" and "prostitutes"..)

Every one of those deals were for the army and navy, not the IAF. So your earlier assertion of IAF being corrupt is not served by your examples. In fact these serve as counter examples to your assertion that IAF is the most corrupt of the forces. And by the way, there have been no charges of bribery in scorpene or gorshkov deals, or T-90, and I don't know what the "boot deal" you are mentioning is.

Only the bofors and tatra had bribery accusations, both for and by army, not IAF.

Please don't make accusations of bribery against the IAF based on your speculations and general anxieties. When asked to substantiate your charges of corruption in the IAF, your reply was that planes are the easiest deals for corruption to happen. That doesn't logically imply that corruption actually happened.

Hospitals are the easiest places to steal people's kidneys, but that doesn't mean that all doctors are devious kidney stealers.

Unless you can actually cite any specific case of corruption, don't put out blanket statements like these in future. Of all the services, the IAF has actually had the lowest charges of bribery or corruption. Even the navy had a few in the past - not for the deals you mentioned - but for deals like the Barak SAM purchase, and the war room leak case involving an admiral's son. The only corruption allegation against the IAF in memory is the augusta westland deal, and even in that it is too early to say if anybody in the IAF actually did anything wrong.

In any case, unless you can substantiate accusations, don't make them. Bribery and corruption are criminal offences, and such charges should not be hurled so lightly.

 

[Koovie]

By closing eye one can't defy the truth... Truth is clear, Truth has came in boforse deal, T90 deal, Scorpeon deal, Jeep deal, Boot deal, tatra deal, Gorshakov deal and so on... still you want to live in deny..

No matter who designed it, It was an opportunity for IAF to have desi product, which IAF deliberately loose.

HAL Tejas never failed to meet requirement, rather the requirements were changed so that "Requirement doesn't meet LCA". When USA can induct F111A, F35 why IAF is shy??? (Only because LCA doesn't come with "Upari Kamai" and "prostitutes"..)

Why dont you just answer my points? Why cant you give sources and links?

Tejas is way inferior to the Sukhois, Rafales, Mig 29 Ks/UPGs, Mirages 2000-5s and FGFAs... which were built by the most experienced and successful manufacturers in the world - FACT.

IAF has a limited budget.. so it just cannot buy everything. -FACT

Tejas has been delayed to the reasons I ve given in my previous post...- mostly FACT


"HAL Tejas never failed to meet requirement"- From where did you get this ?

 

[Beerbal]

Every one of those deals were for the army and navy, not the IAF. So your earlier assertion of IAF being corrupt is not served by your examples. In fact these serve as counter examples to your assertion that IAF is the most corrupt of the forces. And by the way, there have been no charges of bribery in scorpene or gorshkov deals, or T-90, and I don't know what the "boot deal" you are mentioning is.

Only the bofors and tatra had bribery accusations, both for and by army, not IAF.

Please don't make accusations of bribery against the IAF based on your speculations and general anxieties. When asked to substantiate your charges of corruption in the IAF, your reply was that planes are the easiest deals for corruption to happen. That doesn't logically imply that corruption actually happened.

Hospitals are the easiest places to steal people's kidneys, but that doesn't mean that all doctors are devious kidney stealers.

Unless you can actually cite any specific case of corruption, don't put out blanket statements like these in future. Of all the services, the IAF has actually had the lowest charges of bribery or corruption. Even the navy had a few in the past - not for the deals you mentioned - but for deals like the Barak SAM purchase, and the war room leak case involving an admiral's son. The only corruption allegation against the IAF in memory is the augusta westland deal, and even in that it is too early to say if anybody in the IAF actually did anything wrong.

In any case, unless you can substantiate accusations, don't make them. Bribery and corruption are criminal offences, and such charges should not be hurled so lightly.

Boot Scandal: Nehru bought Inferior boot which cost many soldiers leg. This was stepping stone for Armed forces for corruption.

Proof: Its very difficult to find proofs, Its more difficult to prove it in court. When open an shut case like Boforse was not proved, nothing can be proved. But that doesn't mean that corruption is not happening in Armed forces.

From pin to plane, everything bought has kickback attached..

 

[janon]

Boot Scandal: Nehru bought Inferior boot which cost many soldiers leg. This was stepping stone for Armed forces for corruption.

Proof: Its very difficult to find proofs, Its more difficult to prove it in court. When open an shut case like Boforse was not proved, nothing can be proved. But that doesn't mean that corruption is not happening in Armed forces.

From pin to plane, everything bought has kickback attached..

Who needs proof or evidence, when he has his distrust to go by?

Don't cast aspersions just because you believe them to be true, with no reason or evidence to backup. You are doing a disservice to honest people, by making wild accusations. Try to remember when the air force has been caught up in bribery. If you can't think of any instances, then please try to change your opinion based on reality - rather than twisting reality to match your opinion.

 

[Dash]

No matter who designed it, It was an opportunity for IAF to have desi product, which IAF deliberately loose.

HAL Tejas never failed to meet requirement, rather the requirements were changed so that "Requirement doesn't meet LCA". When USA can induct F111A, F35 why IAF is shy??? (Only because LCA doesn't come with "Upari Kamai" and "prostitutes"..)

You are partially correct. IAF is to be blamed but they are not responsible for LCA mishap...its ADA.
By the way in defense deals, its always "Most bang for the buck" policy for IAF. LCA is yet to give that Bang...

if IAF selects something that is like a GLOBAL CERTIFICATION, that is how professional they are..You want examples?

You cant satisfy the this force with cheese burger..

 

[sancho]

Next on the list should be the IAF's Heavy lift and most of its medium lift helos being transferred to the IA.

Medium lift helis yes, heavy lift helis definitely not. Take German forces for example, which currently diverting the CH53s back from the Army aviation, to the Air Force. The reason is, that the main purpose of these heavy lift helicopters is to transport cargo and that can logistically be done more efficiently by the Air Force under one command with their fixed wing fleet. The Army Aviation instead will remain with combat helicopters, LUHs or MUHs, which are meant for direct support of their ground troops, be it with fire support, troop transports, or light to medium lift capabilities.
The same can be done with Indian forces too, by IA aviation getting the combat helicopter and Mi 17s to support the ground forces directly, while the Mi 26 and later the CH47s will remain under IAFs command and their logistical operations with the fixedwing fleet. LUHs needs to be used from all forces, for basic requirements, while IAF don't need any other combat helicopter than Rudras.

3. @sancho : once you asked me, "Are u wiser than IAF generals?", My answer is ," No I am not wiser than them, but what is the use of this wisdom, when they are short of Squadron?". If they are so wise why they are short of 30-40% Squadron???

Because MoD wanted MMRCAs for more industrial advantages, while IAF wanted a fast replacement with M2K-5s.
Because ADA/DRDO failed in parts of the LCA development, which caused the delays in the production and indiction.
Because they have (imo) a wrong induction strategy for the LCA, which calls for a too perfected and too indigenous (yes the same wrong intention you have) fighter.

1Our expertise in making jets are more than making ships, so what happen that we lost that skill and ordered foreign product?

That's wrong, because we have way more government owned and privat manufacturers in the naval industry, than we have in the aero industry. India basically has HAL and to some extend NAL, all the privat manufacturers just have started to take interest in the aero field and have more than limited expertice.
The only valuable expertice in the Indian aero field is for helicopters and partially in avionics, which is why these are the most successfull areas so far. While we have expertice for naval vessels, naval electronics and sensors and now even to develop nuclear propulsions and the necessary subsystems. That is the reason why IN can benefit way more from indigenous developments than IAF can and you have to understand that difference first!