Indian Elections: Who did you Vote

[scorpionx]

'blackfaced during valentines day, couples beaten up in parks, people beaten up in pubs just in the name of 'preserving Hindu values'' - That's neither Hinduism nor Hindutva. Besides, they are exceptional incidents and one time incidents.

Tell it to the Hindutvawadis in bengal. Perhaps they need a better teacher.

What I have observed is Bengalis in general are either apathetic or self blinded. Very few bengalis will take offense to the fact that West Bengal is now the most Islamist state in India, ahead of my home state(that's an achievement) There is an easy going attitude that is the reason here. It's not tolerance, only laziness.In 2013 alone according to Government records Bengal witnessed close to 150 riots - mostly Hindu victims. Swami Vivekananda is worshiped on a few days and his message of Hindu strength forgotten (I am sure most Bengalis won't even know about that aspect). Such self inflicting mentality has ended Bengal exactly where it was supposed to - no surprises there.

This para is bit confusing. If less riots were to be the measurement of one government's inefficiency and "laziness",where do states like Maharashtra, Kashmir,Gujrat,UP,Bihar stand in your list? Are these government with their superb adeptness to administer, have performed less better than Bengal? What do you think? West Bengal through out history was a "Islamist" state. Read Chittaranjan Das' Bengal Muslim pact. The supreme political party agreed with his doctrine. Do you think Congress was an Islamist party then, back in '27?

And it is fun that you mentioned Swami Vivekananda. I doubt how much Togadia and groups will agree with his life and his views.

In my stay, I was considered a communal just for saying that we are persecuted! And that was not the fringe, but the general young educated college-mates! When the Akbar Owaisi speech came out, many of my Bengali friends started searching frantically for similar Hindu speech by Togadia. (the lack of intensity and even a bare lack of equivalence must have disappointed them)

Not an absurd comparison at all. At least when Hindutvawadis tend to outsmart Secularists or liberals with the examples of Azam Khan and Owaisi group of companies.

Bengal will come back to its senses, I know, but for that there has to be a Direct Action Day first. Without that even in 47 Sarat Bose(I may be wrong) would have loved to join East Bengal and create an independent Bengal! After Jinnah's medicine, Bengali Hindus got the message and remembered it for about 20 years I guess.

Noakhali, Canning and Deganga has shown the way(the biggest riots in last couple of years).

If there are riots the first and last legitimate organization to handle it is the Police and law enforcing agencies. The absence of scums like Amit Shah proves Bengal still stands with its senses.
Yes.Sarat Bose wanted to join EB. What does it proves by the way? Maharaja Hari Singh wanted an independent state. Too sound a demand, doesn't it?

Not trying to be rude - but I say what I see. No offense.

No offence taken at all. Hindutvawadis and their stupid logics have made us thick skinned

 

[kbd-raaf]

Why noble laureates from fields apart from science won't count, do they make India less proud?
Anyway.....the most recent Noble laureate is from the field of Economics and the person is from Bengal......besides, I wasn't talking about debt, industrial output etc, I was talking about Individual achievements.......

Firstly as a Bengali, I apologise to all other Indians on this thread on oFFbEAT's behalf.

The most recent Indian Nobel (not Noble) laureate is from the field of Chemistry and is most certainly not Bengali.

This fabled intellectual superiority is just that, a fable. As a Bengali Indian, the most intelligent Indian I know is Sindhi from Rajasthan. I would be at best, a 5th on that list.

Amartya Sen is a disgrace anyway.

Poetry, literature etc is all bullshit. Sophistry and bullshit.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Tell it to the Hindutvawadis in bengal. Perhaps they need a better teacher.

This para is bit confusing. If less riots were to be the measurement of one government's inefficiency and "laziness",where do states like Maharashtra, Kashmir,Gujrat,UP,Bihar stand in your list? Are these government with their superb adeptness to administer, have performed less better than Bengal? What do you think? West Bengal through out history was a "Islamist" state. Read Chittaranjan Das' Bengal Muslim pact. The supreme political party agreed with his doctrine. Do you think Congress was an Islamist party then, back in '27?

And it is fun that you mentioned Swami Vivekananda. I doubt how much Togadia and groups will agree with his life and his views.

Not an absurd comparison at all. At least when Hindutvawadis tend to outsmart Secularists or liberals with the examples of Azam Khan and Owaisi group of companies.

If there are riots the first and last legitimate organization to handle it is the Police and law enforcing agencies. The absence of scums like Amit Shah proves Bengal still stands with its senses.
Yes.Sarat Bose wanted to join EB. What does it proves by the way? Maharaja Hari Singh wanted an independent state. Too sound a demand, doesn't it?

No offence taken at all. Hindutvawadis and their stupid logics have made us thick skinned

I expected a little different approach but never mind
1. Yes, Hindutwadis do need a better teacher. They have done almost anything to try to emulate Islamists to make their point. Not smart, I agree.

2. Bengal stands 2nd in 2013 with respect to other Indian states - just after UP. Bad feat

3. Congress became an appeasement based party back in the Khilafat times - I mean why do Indians have to fight for the Khilafat?

4. Togadia is an idiot. I don't have much liking for VHP myself. Perhaps they are necessary but I have deep reservations for them.

5. An absurd comparison to boot.

6. For riots police and law enforcing agencies are the last legitimate organization. The first one is the responsibility of the general population - to maintain general amity across all divisions. In Bengal I can see it fractured. If it's not - great

Beside you know very well (as you said a couple of days back) that Islamic extremism is being fanned by both TMC and CPM. Trust me -this is a dangerous situation.

7. Amit Shah is a necessary evil - for now. Later on may be @Dillinger can take his place. After UP is made into a more civilized place - people like Amit Shah will be irrelevant.

8. Stupid logic? - There my post is destroyed by that one word

Firstly as a Bengali, I apologise to all other Indians on this thread on oFFbEAT's behalf.

The most recent Indian Nobel (not Noble) laureate is from the field of Chemistry and is most certainly not Bengali.

This fabled intellectual superiority is just that, a fable. As a Bengali Indian, the most intelligent Indian I know is Sindhi from Rajasthan. I would be at best, a 5th on that list.

Amartya Sen is a disgrace anyway.

Poetry, literature etc is all bullshit. Sophistry and bullshit.

Not entirely BS as you claim. I also appreciate the intellectual expertise.

What I don't get is the abject surrender of the Bengali intellectual class to Islamic extremists and exhortation to the Hindus to accept the growing Islamists as a permanent fringe, while the truth is far from it.
This is the crux of the matter.

Bengal is the place from where Dharmic thought - a syncretic mix of Buddhism and Hinduism merged to form a unique strain of Vaishnavism occurred. The disarming of a pro Hindu line of thinking(not anti Muslim) is rife among Bengalis, unfortunately.

 

[scorpionx]

I expected a little different approach but never mind
1. Yes, Hindutwadis do need a better teacher. They have done almost anything to try to emulate Islamists to make their point. Not smart, I agree.

2. Bengal stand 2nd in 2013 with respect to other Indian states - just after UP. Bad feat

3. Congress became an appeasement based party back in the Khilafat times - I mean why do Indians have to fight for the Khilafat?

4. Togadia is an idiot. I don't have much liking for VHP myself. Perhaps they are necessary but I have deep reservations for them.

5. An absurd comparison to boot.

6. For riots police and law enforcing agencies are the last legitimate organization. The first one is the responsibility of the general population - to maintain general amity across all divisions. In Bengal I can see it fractured. If it's not - great

7. Amit Shah is a necessary evil - for now.

8. Stupid logic? - There my post is destroyed by that one word

I agree on point 1,3 and 4. So lets shake hands from distance.

Now #2. It is still confusing. Did people of Bengal become lazy on one fine morning in 2013?

#5 In fact it is. As I said it is just as absurd when some one demands justice for Gujarat suddenly is shown the examples of Owaisi. It has been done quite frequently these days. No body from right wing groups call it absurd then.

#6 What exactly rest of India has done for general amity across all division? Please elaborate.

#7 Azam Khan too can call himself as a necessary evil. He has plenty of documents for his support. So calling Shah an "necessary" evil is just an irreversible error.There is no way back.There is a notorious example of a "necessary" evil in Indian history and we know how fatal it proved to be in later days.

PS: Grammar check.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

I agree on point 1,3 and 4. So lets shake hands from distance.

Now #2. It is still confusing. Did people of Bengal became lazy on one fine morning in 2013?

#5 In fact it is. As I said it is just as absurd when some one demands justice for Gujarat suddenly is shown the examples of Owaisi. It have been done quite frequently these days. No body from right wing groups call it absurd then.

#6 What exactly rest of India has done for general amity across all division? Please elaborate.

#7 Azam Khan too can call himself as a necessary evil. He has plenty of documents for his support. So calling Shah an "necessary" evil is just an irreversible error.There is no way back.There is a grand example of a "necessary" evil in Indian history and we know how fatal it proved to be in later days.

True. Let's shake hands. But I just watched the #poo2loo video... so...

Regarding Amit Shah, to tell you honestly, I have my grave doubts. I have my limitations there.

#2 - Laziness is in the lack of taking on Islamists in Bengal. But they are ever vigilant if a Hindu party raises a finger against Islamists.

#5 - On a scale of hatred - if Owaisi is given a 10 (say), how would you mark say Amit Shah (pick any other Hindu/Sikh/buddhist leader)?

#6 - Not much. But the lack of negatives is a positive as well. When Taslima was hounded out with attempted murders, there was complete silence! Even some intellectuals called for a ban of her book. Yet they came at the forefront in allowing Hussains paintings when he was (very wrongly and unfortunately) abused, though no murder attempts or death threats were made by priests etc.

#7 - UP is a field I don't understand. Like I said - Amit Shah and all UP centric caste based equation have remained elusive to me. There is one prevalent unfortunate notion of Amit Shah though - he looks evil, that does some undoing honestly. Perception is a big thing.

 

[scorpionx]

@SarthakGanguly

It's a good night my friend. I will answer tomorrow.But in short I agree some of your points. Especially #6.

Call of duty (j/k)

 

[SarthakGanguly]

@SarthakGanguly

It's a good night my friend. I will answer tomorrow.But in short I agree some of your points. Especially #6.

Call of duty (j/k)

Same here

 

[Dillinger]

@scorpionx @SarthakGanguly

Lets be honest, Sarthak is accurate in so far as stating that the intellectuals in Bengal and the general Calcutta intelligentsia has ignored the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in the region more importantly they have ignored the nexus between the political dispensation and the extremists who feed off each other. We have reduced the Indian Muslim population to an emotional mob which can see no reason and will not acquiesce even to the most basic of demands made upon them as Indian citizens, in having done so we are busy stitching up a Frankenstein monster one piece form a cadaver at a time. This is a disservice to the nation and to the Indians who happen to follow the Islamic faith.

As a secularist first one must understand that secularism stands for the absence of religion, in the context of administration and the state it means that all policies are devoid of any and all religious color and that the conduct of the servants of the people is similarly devoid of any religious shades. THAT is secularism, now when one applies said accurate definition of the much hallowed term then one must realize that there can be no place for discrimination of lower expectations, there can be no compromise on the authority of the state and its laws either in favor of the minority or the majority.

The issue is of intellectual honesty and a discourse where fidelity to the tenets of secularism is maintained. The language of the discourse itself must change and from there it must translate in to action, into an ideology which is actually and properly practiced. When you only oppose extremism in one community while blatantly sympathizing with (not you, but our babu moshais and didis and comrades do) and or even abetting the extremists of another community then you're disingenuous nature damages the very notion of secularism. We have turned the term into an invective, we have done so because we lack the courage to properly contextualize and apply our ideology.

If we are to have ANY hope for a truly secular India then we need to shed this attitude, we must fight extremism wherever and whenever it arises. Currently we only adhere to the ideology when it can glean us electoral gains, we have reduced it to being confined to rhetoric that is not only repetitive but also rife with contradictions.

No man, no community, no citizenry will ever submit to any law or ideology that does not apply equally in letter and spirit to each and every man and woman. Censure or praise, punishment or reward must be visited upon the citizens without any bias or prejudice, failing which the citizens will never submit to it. But the same folk will submit to the most demanding of principles if they are assured that they shall neither be alone in observing it nor shall there be any other who shall be free of its obligations.

 

[kbd-raaf]

I expected a little different approach but never mind
1. Yes, Hindutwadis do need a better teacher. They have done almost anything to try to emulate Islamists to make their point. Not smart, I agree.

2. Bengal stands 2nd in 2013 with respect to other Indian states - just after UP. Bad feat

3. Congress became an appeasement based party back in the Khilafat times - I mean why do Indians have to fight for the Khilafat?

4. Togadia is an idiot. I don't have much liking for VHP myself. Perhaps they are necessary but I have deep reservations for them.

5. An absurd comparison to boot.

6. For riots police and law enforcing agencies are the last legitimate organization. The first one is the responsibility of the general population - to maintain general amity across all divisions. In Bengal I can see it fractured. If it's not - great

Beside you know very well (as you said a couple of days back) that Islamic extremism is being fanned by both TMC and CPM. Trust me -this is a dangerous situation.

7. Amit Shah is a necessary evil - for now. Later on may be @Dillinger can take his place. After UP is made into a more civilized place - people like Amit Shah will be irrelevant.

8. Stupid logic? - There my post is destroyed by that one word


Not entirely BS as you claim. I also appreciate the intellectual expertise.

What I don't get is the abject surrender of the Bengali intellectual class to Islamic extremists and exhortation to the Hindus to accept the growing Islamists as a permanent fringe, while the truth is far from it.
This is the crux of the matter.

Bengal is the place from where Dharmic thought - a syncretic mix of Buddhism and Hinduism merged to form a unique strain of Vaishnavism occurred. The disarming of a pro Hindu line of thinking(not anti Muslim) is rife among Bengalis, unfortunately.

I'll reply to you shortly

 

[PoKeMon]

@scorpionx @SarthakGanguly

Lets be honest, Sarthak is accurate in so far as stating that the intellectuals in Bengal and the general Calcutta intelligentsia has ignored the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in the region more importantly they have ignored the nexus between the political dispensation and the extremists who feed off each other. We have reduced the Indian Muslim population to an emotional mob which can see no reason and will not acquiesce even to the most basic of demands made upon them as Indian citizens, in having done so we are busy stitching up a Frankenstein monster one piece form a cadaver at a time. This is a disservice to the nation and to the Indians who happen to follow the Islamic faith.

As a secularist first one must understand that secularism stands for the absence of religion, in the context of administration and the state it means that all policies are devoid of any and all religious color and that the conduct of the servants of the people is similarly devoid of any religious shades. THAT is secularism, now when one applies said accurate definition of the much hallowed term then one must realize that there can be no place for discrimination of lower expectations, there can be no compromise on the authority of the state and its laws either in favor of the minority or the majority.

The issue is of intellectual honesty and a discourse where fidelity to the tenets of secularism is maintained. The language of the discourse itself must change and from there it must translate in to action, into an ideology which is actually and properly practiced. When you only oppose extremism in one community while blatantly sympathizing (not you, but our babumoshais and didis and comrades do) and or even abetting the extremist of another community then you're disingenuous nature damages the very notion of secularism. We have turned the term in to an invective, we have done so because we lack the courage to properly contextualize and apply our ideology.

If we are to have ANY hope for a truly secular India then we need to shed this attitude, we must fight extremism wherever and whenever it arises. Currently we only adhere to the ideology when it can glean us electoral gains, we have reduced it to being confined to rhetoric that is not only repetitive but also rife with contradictions.

No man, no community, no citizenry will ever submit to any law or ideology that does not apply equally in letter and spirit to each and every man and woman. Censure or praise, punishment or reward must be visited upon the citizens without any bias or prejudice, failing which the citizens will never submit to it. But the same folk will submit to the most demanding of principles if they are assured that they shall neither be alone in observing it nor shall there be any other who shall be free of its obligations.

The whole idea of secularism looks hollow when we allow caste-ism in our administration. Communalism and caste-ism both are divisive and do equal harm by creating fractions in society on the basis of xyz.

If administration can give special benefit to a section based on caste, its legit to give away freebies on the basis of religion.

 

[Dillinger]

The whole idea of secularism looks hollow when we allow caste-ism in our administration. Communalism and caste-ism both are divisive and do equal harm by creating fractions in society on the basis of xyz.

If administration can give special benefit to a section based on caste, its legit to give away freebies on the basis of religion.

No its not. In fact even the most stringent opponents of religion based affirmative action such as Subramaniam Swami are on record stating that caste based affirmative action is required. The problem arises when it is used as a handout for electoral gains rather than a consistent policy based directive with an end in sight. For example, let there be chronological cap on reservations and that too reservations must only apply to the lowest of castes which have historically faced discrimination form a large percentage of the populace otherwise a Bhumihar may say that a Bengali Kayasto Brahmin will probably not share a meal with him so even he is being discriminated against. The caste system is a hierarchy where there's a top and a bottom, its those who populate the bottom who need help. But again, a chronological cap is required, lets say 30 years, after which reservations will be removed. Similarly a criterion related to the economic class of the fellow to whom the reservation is being given must exist. Simple things, which require honest implementation. Honest implementation which arises from clear policy guidelines which are applied to the letter. For eg. OBC from a family with a median income below say 2 lakh per financial year, congratulations you are eligible to existing reservations but then your son or daughter will not be eligible for the same. Of course there are other details which must be considered, what if you have a Brahmin family which lives on dregs for example.

 

[PoKeMon]

No its not. In fact even the most stringent opponents of religion based affirmative action such as Subramaniam Swami are on record stating that caste based affirmative action is required. The problem arises when it is used as a handout for electoral gains rather than a consistent policy based directive with an end in sight. For example, let there be chronological cap on reservations and that too reservations must only apply to the lowest of castes which have historically faced discrimination form a large percentage of the populace otherwise a Bhumihar may say that a Bengali Kayasto Brahmin will probably not share a meal with him so even he is being discriminated against. The caste system is a hierarchy where there's a top and a bottom, its those who populate the bottom who need help. But again, a chronological cap is required, lets say 30 years, after which reservations will be removed. Similarly a criterion related to the economic class of the fellow to whom the reservation is being given must exist. Simple things, which require honest implementation. Honest implementation which arises from clear policy guidelines which are applied to the letter. For eg. OBC from a family with a median income below sat 2 lakh per financial year, congratulations you are eligible to existing reservations but then your son or daughter will not be eligible for the same. Of course there are other details which must be considered, what if you have a Brahmin family which lives on dregs for example.

First of all we need to understand the impact of caste-ism on ones life. I can bifurcate into two-

1- Social unacceptability - That can only be eradicated by education: not just bookish but moral and ethical as well. No freebies can change the status of a untouchable in front of a brahmin or a rajput.

2- Economical - Yes that can be taken care of but then do we need caste based sections to lift the poor? Why there is a need of dividing populace into caste and give benefits to caste rather than poor? I am sure we dont need to discuss how creamy layer keeps on getting economical benefits.

Dividing society in rich and poor would bring more social harmony than on the basis of caste which bring more evils than good. We will never be able to remove this menace if this menace can earn you freebies.

Isn't it an irony that we want to eradicate caste system but keep on issuing caste certificates? To eradicate poverty, just ask income certificate not caste certificate.

 

[Dillinger]

First of all we need to understand the impact of caste-ism on ones life. I can bifurcate into two-

1- Social unacceptability - That can only be eradicated by education: not just bookish but moral and ethical as well. No freebies can change the status of a untouchable in front of a brahmin or a rajput.

2- Economical - Yes that can be taken care of but then do we need caste based sections to lift the poor? Why there is a need of dividing populace into caste and give benefits to caste rather than poor? I am sure we dont need to discuss how creamy layer keeps on getting economical benefits.

Dividing society in rich and poor would bring more social harmony than on the basis of caste which bring more evils than good. We will never be able to remove this menace if this menace can earn you freebies.

Isn't it an irony that we want to eradicate caste system but keep on issuing caste certificates? To eradicate poverty, just ask income certificate not caste certificate.

The creamy layer playing the system and the division of society on caste lines by creating resentment has less to do with reservations themselves and more to do with the way they are applied, the way they are distributed in an ad hoc manner, the fact that they are electoral freebies rather than policy. It is related to those who are handing out said freebies, when said freebies are related to a stratagem to garner votes by a party or parties which happen to be overwhelmingly corrupt and incapable of communicating with the people they serve that's when the resentment starts. As I said its the intention behind the policy of affirmative action, the quality of those who bring it forth and the manner in which it is implemented that matters and unfortunately for us there is neither clarity of vision nor integrity of character in this context within our political dispensation.

When a fellow sees that right before the elections a quota is instituted by the incumbents for a certain caste that's when the fellow begins to get agitated. When a fellow sees that the said incumbents are not only using it to garner votes but are also doing said garnering to loot them that's when it turns to rage. A Modi or a Vajpayee can afford to state that they shall have a clear policy based, consistent affirmative action program with defined parameters, a Digvijay or Mayavati cannot and nor would they ever actually commit to a program of said nature after all if they did what would they use in the next election?

Now as for the social aspect, you're absolutely right and that needs a completely different solution altogether.

 

[PoKeMon]

The creamy layer playing the system and the division of society on caste lines by creating resentment has less to do with reservations themselves and more to do with the way they are applies, the way they are distributed in an ad hoc manner, the fact that they are electoral freebies rather than policy. It is related to those who are handing out said freebies, when said freebies are related to a stratagem to garner votes by a party or parties which happen to be overwhelmingly corrupt and incapable of communicating with the people they serve that's when the resentment starts. As I said it the intention behind the policy of affirmative action, the quality of those who bring it forth and the manner in which it is implemented that matters and unfortunately for us there is neither clarity of vision nor integrity of character in this context within our political dispensation.

Now as for the social aspect, you're absolutely right and that needs a completely different solution altogether.

You can only play with a policy if it exists. My very question is why there is such a policy which is mishandled or can be easily mishandled and that's too with a very less dividends. They have formulated such policy which on first appearance looks so much giving in nature but in reality suck up to elites only, its just that elites of low caste. All deception.

Our politicians - give them the tool and they will screw us. I would love to see poor appeasement in election time rather than caste/religion appeasement.

 

[Dillinger]

You can only play with a policy if it exists. My very question is why there is such a policy which is mishandled or can be easily mishandled and that's too with a very less dividends. They have formulated such policy which on first appearance looks so much giving in nature but in reality suck up to elites only, its just that elites of low caste. All deception.

Our politicians - give them the tool and they will screw us. I would love to see poor appeasement in election time rather than caste/religion appeasement.

And that's the rub, the policy can be mishandled if the perps are allowed to mishandle it. Its like saying that having a PDS can then lead to rich buggers accruing undeserved benefit form it and taxing the government subsidization which runs the PDS and ergo ultimately the tax payer. Now where is the problem, in the PDS or the fact that we either do not have a clear policy and control methods regarding distribution of ration cards based on economic status of recipient, or perhaps we are incapable of ensuring policing against circumvention of said policy through petty bribes etc. We can't and should not disband the PDS BUT we must most assuredly ensure that it cannot be misused, otherwise any good scheme which actually benefits those who need it the most can be suspect. The point is to remove the malaise and enforce the rules. Of course in India the very term "enforce the rules" sounds positively comical, absurd and invokes a sense of surrealistic amusement. If we cannot change that though then forget reservations we are doomed anyway.