India can do nothing if there is another Mumbai

[All-Green]

The Pakistani establishment probably does not believe that. That's the only conclusion that can be drawn from the efforts to protect the LeT, the denials of Kasab's origins.

The closeness between the establishment and the Jihadis can be seen in how a JuD activist has been appointed to head PTV News. (PTV News headed by `jihadi' blacks out anti-Talban news - Pakistan - World - NEWS - The Times of India)

Nevertheless, I am willing to consider the possibility that the Mumbai incident may have received additional backing from forces not under the control of the Pakistani establishment. It would be a step in the right direction for Pakistan to investigate and expose the sources of funding in the Gulf.




Don't try to hide behind legalese. Pakistan has shown no such sensitivity to legal niceties when it comes to liquidating the TTP volunteers in Swat.

First of all you should know that despite our hatred of TTP, those we capture are not executed and i know from first hand sources so yes we damn well do care about the legal aspect and due investigation, otherwise we would have killed all the TTP we captured and we have captured a lot...In Wana an associate of mine was witness to his course mate being burned alive when his post was overtaken after a gun battle of 2 days in which he was outnumbered 20 to 1...there are countless stories like this which are true but we are not butchering the captives despite what they did...So yes we do have to go by the book...that's how it is and because this is an investigation that concerns 2 countries, it is more difficult...

We liquidate those TTP who are fighting...we do not liquidate all those TTP sympathizers who have supported TTP cause in minced words but are not doing anything illegal...guys like Hamid Mir etc. who are TTP apologists are hated by agencies and guys like me but what can be done to them without evidence linking them to TTP?
So yes we do have to operate within limits...

You are naive to assume that India has shared an overwhelming and absolute evidence and still Pakistan has not moved a muscle...this is not the case...evidence has to be explicit...had this been the case the U.N. would have raised hue and cry over Pakistan supporting terrorism, this is not the case...if LET is responsible then already LET is banned and we are fighting them in the west...to arrest all JUD leaders and hold them responsible just because JUD was in past affiliated with LET is not overwhelming logic and cannot be pursued as a very sensible approach...

LET and JUD are different...JUD leaders left LET for its militant activities...LET is a terrorist organization...not JUD...first you have to understand this...JUD has done a lot of excellent charity work for the people of Pakistan...

Regarding the appointment of any person in PTV, does he promote hate and has he supported terrorism, if yes then that is unacceptable...if no then what is the issue?
JUD has had many persons who are not even remotely linked to any extreme party let alone terrorists...heck even my friends worked for them during Kashmir earthquake relief effort...what a lame accusation that anyone working for JUD is a terrorist...this stinks...

Just because times of India says so you believe it...look at the standard of the article you have posted...
they are linking the less focus on JUD to this appointment whereas we all have seen that court has rejected the prosecution's evidence as totally unconvincing and lacking ..it is only natural that the news mention something else now that this case is surely stuck till some progress is made in terms of evidence...even i had lost my interest by the time GOP's accusation fell on its face in court...

BTW, PTV has been providing good coverage of WOT and has shown all support for Army in its war against TTP...i frankly am at a loss to understand from where this TTP sympathy has been seen...utterly baseless accusation...

Not satisfied with this grand conclusion they have gone to add another chatpata aspect of alleged sexual harassment in PTV and that too in the same article...mudslinging is the core principle of this article...

PTV is now home to Terrorists and oh so Sexy beasts...what a combination...

Anyways, i hope the true culprits are caught and punished as soon as possible and Pakistan India move forward instead of this constant state of conflict...dialogue should not be stopped no matter what happens...only once we are engaged in dialogue will there be enough trust...only with trust can we expect any real impetus to resolve all issues including the mumbai attack investigation...
Currently the way things are, i honestly do not see much success in the investigation since it is more of a blame game, which is only natural now that there is no dialogue...after all it is not a small thing at diplomatic level to freeze all dialogue...only thing worse than this is war...

I am never one to propagate conspiracy theories but something here stinks and not of India and Pakistan...something very dangerous indeed was planned by the perpetrators of this attack...something both nations should think about before the light goes out of our lives...

 

[Halaku Khan]

I am never one to propagate conspiracy theories but something here stinks and not of India and Pakistan...something very dangerous indeed was planned by the perpetrators of this attack...something both nations should think about before the light goes out of our lives...

Unraveling the sources of funding in the Gulf will be important to understanding the Mumbai attack. It could be that some of the impetus came from there. But then, there are many in the Pakistan establishment who have been radicalized, and have a tremendous capacity for brutish behavior. Outside powers can make use of such tendencies. The radicals are happy to be used, as long as it hurts the perceived enemy. Perhaps they may not even realize that they are being used.

 

[muse]

In the recent past, twice to my recollection, Pakistan and Indian have failed each other and have been outplayed by forces (in particular Al-qaeeda) - whenever it seemed that we may have real progress made between Pakistan and India, a terror attack unhinges the progress - and if as it seems from news, that Pakistan and India may once again try to effect a paradigm change, forces hostile to this notion will act - so a posssiblity of another terror attack, unless Pakistan and India and others cooperate more closely to prevent it, is strong.

 

[All-Green]

In the recent past, twice to my recollection, Pakistan and Indian have failed each other and have been outplayed by forces (in particular Al-qaeeda) - whenever it seemed that we may have real progress made between Pakistan and India, a terror attack unhinges the progress - and if as it seems from news, that Pakistan and India may once again try to effect a paradigm change, forces hostile to this notion will act - so a posssiblity of another terror attack, unless Pakistan and India and others cooperate more closely to prevent it, is strong.

I agree Muse that if things normalize the terrorists would eventually die down...they will do all within their power to make sure this does not happen and for that India and Pakistan cannot stop the peace process...it will only help the terrorists...

Has US succeeded in eliminating these organizations through the might of arms?
Millions all over the world have suffered and yet the organization is still running, the reason is very simple...
It thrives on conflict and conflict is what it wants and what it has managed to create in Afghanistan...same thing it wants to do in Pakistan...which it is finding hard to do because of Pakistan's army and agencies are of a different level than the Afghan forces...this brings in India in the plans of Al Qaeda...

To eliminate the networks like Al Qaeda we first need to make sure that there is no regional stand off and Pakistan India relationship needs to improve hell of a lot more...the middle east has given rise to terrorism not because the arabs are evil...it is because Israeli aggression has been so unilateral that all atrocities are now declared justified by the terrorists who will strike even at civilian targets...whereas surely i hate their actions...it is a fact that Israel has orchestrated a state level ethnic cleansing which is nothing short of terrorism...both things are absolutely wrong but to say that they are not connected is really stupid and same applies in the sub continent...

Al Qaeda can be the perpetrator of such a plan to make sure that the strong military of Pakistan is diverted (in worse case scenario) and allied to Al Qaeda (in best case scenario) if it goes to war with India...this is what i see as the real objective and whereas the chances of PA alliance with AL Qaeda is out of the question , we can be sure that in case of War Al Qaeda will become much more popular in the entire region, the enemy of my enemy is my friend will be their slogan and they need give few statements like this to win over new friends...

We do not want to give them any reason to win recruits here and Pakistan India hostilities is something they want more than anything to do just this...

Freezing everything due to a terror attack is only to the benefit of the terrorists...it is a mistake and should be immediately rectified...

 

[muse]

Freezing everything due to a terror attack is only to the benefit of the terrorists...it is a mistake and should be immediately rectified...

Certainly, but it will be one brave, perhaps unrealitically, unreasonably brave governement that could go against popular "sentiment" to such a degree that it may endanger it's parliamentary majority -

.the middle east has given rise to terrorism not because the arabs are evil...it is because Israeli aggression has been so unilateral that all atrocities are now declared justified by the terrorists who will strike even at civilian targets...whereas surely i hate their actions...it is a fact that Israel has orchestrated a state level ethnic cleansing which is nothing short of terrorism...both things are absolutely wrong but to say that they are not connected is really stupid and same applies in the sub continent...

I would offer a caution here, while we can all agree that Israeli policy is characterized by us as having a strong anti-Muslim component - lets be clear that it, Israel, did not develop these policies in a vacuum - How might israel's policies had "terrorism" not be adopted as the sole tactic of the Palestinian, with the full support of all Arab countires - and how might Palestinians of today been, had Arab countries not thought to use them as a political and military tool created and tormented in refugee camps, instead of being fully integrated? Indeed, so many "ifs" - as the saying goes, "in this bath house, we are all naked".

Imagine if you will, a Israel that is not a proxy of the US, not a fixed aircarft carrier in the heart of Islamia, not a weapon percieved as pointing to the heart of Islamia on one side and "Hindu" India on the other side - do you really think any sane israeli wants to be tool of the American or the evangelical who hopes to convert him as doomsday approaches?? On the other hand, faced with such overwhelming rejection, what options have we left them? By regarding them with and ascribing to them, every ethnocentric libel we can, what have we made of them?? A bogey man to die for - have we (I mean Muslims in general) done ourselves any favor by doing that? On the other hand, has the Israeli not done to himself, his future and that of his progeny, exactly what we have done to ours by buying into this vision or rather lack thereof?

We must refuse to be permissive to suggestions that give any comfort to those who reject entirely - after all , who died and left our fates and those of our progeny to a super tiny minority who know little but hate and have a vision of us as so much fodder to further their hate filled agenda -- but in reality this takes a great, great courage, and most of us, of whatever nationality or religion or ethnicity, are not courageous.

 

[All-Green]

Ajmal Kasab was Trained by Pakistanis.Period. And yes if there is another mumbai then you will get your answer by urself what india is capable of. The question remains is that is there enough VIR*INS in heaven?

Attack us then if you have proof of GOP and ISI involvement...period

And who trains the terrorists in India?
If they strike in Bangladesh, Pakistan or China...will it be Indian Government that should be held responsible without establishing its links to the attackers?

Really original to drag religion into this and attempt to provoke Muslims by making fun of Islam...your intent is obvious...put a sock in it and do not derail the thread...

This is a mature discussion about a critical issue which has many more aspects than what meets the eye...

I reckon once you let go of the arrogance and the provocative attitude you have just displayed...you may have a slight chance of understanding what we are discussing here...

 

[All-Green]

Certainly, but it will be one brave, perhaps unrealitically, unreasonably brave governement that could go against popular "sentiment" to such a degree that it may endanger it's parliamentary majority -




I would offer a caution here, while we can all agree that Israeli policy is characterized by us as having a strong anti-Muslim component - lets be clear that it, Israel, did not develop these policies in a vacuum - How might israel's policies had "terrorism" not be adopted as the sole tactic of the Palestinian, with the full support of all Arab countires - and how might Palestinians of today been, had Arab countries not thought to use them as a political and military tool created and tormented in refugee camps, instead of being fully integrated? Indeed, so many "ifs" - as the saying goes, "in this bath house, we are all naked".

Imagine if you will, a Israel that is not a proxy of the US, not a fixed aircarft carrier in the heart of Islamia, not a weapon percieved as pointing to the heart of Islamia on one side and "Hindu" India on the other side - do you really think any sane israeli wants to be tool of the American or the evangelical who hopes to convert him as doomsday approaches?? On the other hand, faced with such overwhelming rejection, what options have we left them? By regarding them with and ascribing to them, every ethnocentric libel we can, what have we made of them?? A bogey man to die for - have we (I mean Muslims in general) done ourselves any favor by doing that? On the other hand, has the Israeli not done to himself, his future and that of his progeny, exactly what we have done to ours by buying into this vision or rather lack thereof?

We must refuse to be permissive to suggestions that give any comfort to those who reject entirely - after all , who died and left our fates and those of our progeny to a super tiny minority who know little but hate and have a vision of us as so much fodder to further their hate filled agenda -- but in reality this takes a great, great courage, and most of us, of whatever nationality or religion or ethnicity, are not courageous.

Muse, i agree that the approach taken is entirely unacceptable...however i would be foolish not to accept the reality that these conflicts are what gives the terrorist networks willing recruits...that is something all should work together to put an end to...

As the technology advances and if these flash-points and conflicts are not resolved...there is a great possibility of a network much more advanced than Al Qaeda which gives global terrorism a new meaning...be it cyber, biological, chemical or even nuclear terrorism...

We have to look ahead 50 years from now and realize that the battle cannot be won without lowering the temperature and bargaining for peace...

There is no excuse for terrorism but we have to understand that there is always a justification which is given to recruits and the weaker the justification, the less likely the outfit will be able to find enough critical mass to become unstoppable...

 

[Khajur]

In the recent past, twice to my recollection, Pakistan and Indian have failed each other and have been outplayed by forces (in particular Al-qaeeda) - whenever it seemed that we may have real progress made between Pakistan and India, a terror attack unhinges the progress - and if as it seems from news, that Pakistan and India may once again try to effect a paradigm change, forces hostile to this notion will act - so a posssiblity of another terror attack, unless Pakistan and India and others cooperate more closely to prevent it, is strong.

India pakistan peace process can contiune inspite of terror attacks.
But for that,pakistan must not act sterenly aganist those anti india terrorist elements who have safe havens inside pakistan and have to make sure murderers behind 26/11 attacks are brought to justice as early as possible.

Till now,pakistani establishment is only percieved to be hand in glove with those terrorists hell bent on harming india from pakistani soil.

we just cant have proclamied jehadi killers of indian citizens being felicitated as great freedom fighers ur establishment and still continue to engage in a faithful composite dialogue to resolve disputes...that cant happen.

 

[IceCold]

Ajmal Kasab was Trained by Pakistanis.Period. And yes if there is another mumbai then you will get your answer by urself what india is capable of. The question remains is that is there enough VIR*INS in heaven?

I'll suggest you to remove the word Pak from your nick. Dont embarrass the word.

 

[dabong1]

we just cant have proclamied jehadi killers of indian citizens being felicitated as great freedom fighers ur establishment and still continue to engage in a faithful composite dialogue to resolve disputes...that cant happen.

And we cant have you killing our brothers in kashmir and then thinking we are going to stop helping them......it just can not happen

 

[deep.ocean]

And we cant have you killing our brothers in kashmir and then thinking we are going to stop helping them......it just can not happen

You can help your deprieved Kashmiri Brothers, you can support them by arming them to funding them, we will not bothered of it but the main pain is that your citizens are getting involved in terrorist attacks on Indian cities by killing innocent people instead of fighting Indian Army.. By killing innocent Indian, if you can take Kashmir then all de best....

 

[Meengla]

Kashmir cannot be a prerequisite to peace, peace is a prerequisite to Kashmir, there is no other way. No self respecting country would ever cede to terrorists.

Plausible deniability worked for a while. Time's up.

Sounds like Israel to me! While the Israelis continue to gobble up land--an action termed 'illegal' even by official American policy--the Israelis demand 'complete peace' and 'dismantling the infrastructure of terror' as precondition to talks; these words come out of Indians' mouths too.

Yes, India is not Israel. I think India is a far better country and society than Israel is. But on some matters Indians have fully internalized the rhetoric of the Israelis.

The heart of the matter is Land and Resources. India is content to enjoy status quo--and our Indian guests don't even hide that. But status quo is the problem. No matter how many times Indians say otherwise but at least a sizeable part of Kashmir will breakaway if Indian boots are moved away from Kashmir. Obfuscating the 'core' issue may buy time for India but continues to hold billion+ people of the subcontinent hostage to the unimaginative and jingoistic leadership of India.
Solve Kashmir issue. You may not even need to 'redraw' the borders. But come up with imaginative ways. May be an Andorra Solution? May be making the 'borders irrelevent'? The peace-dividends will be enormous for all and perhaps we may see a South Asian Union in our own lifetime?

 

[graphican]

I guess this thread is not about Kashmir.

Does it hurt when some Pakistani talks of Kashmir? You point finger at terrorists who are made terrorists because of Indian occupation of Kashmir and this is where we point finger at you. Kashmir is essential part of the war/peace equation between the two Nations and without resolving Kashmir, peace between India and Pakistan would nothing more than a wishful thinking.

 

[graphican]

Dont dream about blackmailing India on kasmir with terrorist attack within India.

Do you realize not we but India is trying to blackmail millions of Kashmiris by threatening, abducting, raping, killing and suppressing every means possible? When your 600,000 armed personals are not able to do it, how do expect 12 lame people with guns could be successful in blackmailing you?

 

[Storm Force]

After 9/11 the London Bombings and Mumbai bombing as well as various other terror campaigns i dont think GOP will want to be involved or be indirectly linked to any future attack in the name of Kashmir.

The world collectively will not allow a soveriegn nation be the launch ground for such events.

in fact i don,t believe that Pakistan Gov,t military or ISI will take the risk they won,t let it happen because of potential massive repurcussions.

If it does happen it will happen without the GOP knowledge or involvement.