India can do nothing if there is another Mumbai

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, India does not consider Kashmir a disputed territory, even if UN does. It is an integrated state of India with considerably more powers to the State legislature than other Indian states. It is not going to be resolved, that a big if, anytime soon.
I was talking about Indo-Pak interaction at the Govt/Military level, if - God forbid - another Mumbai style terrorist attack occurs on Indian soil, wth its origins traced to Pak soil.
No matter how you want to look at it, given the present scenario and each one's standing in the international community, Pakistan stands to loose a lot, Kashmir will be pushed back and talks will center around CBMs and trade. India is NOT giving up Kashmir anytime soon. Too risky from Indian pov.

Gubbi:

My point is that there are red lines that won't be crossed. The GoP might be under pressure to 'show more' in terms of action against the alleged perpetrators, but Indian military action on Pak soil with GoP blessings is not happening.

 

[gubbi]

Gubbi:

My point is that there are red lines that won't be crossed. The GoP might be under pressure to 'show more' in terms of action against the alleged perpetrators, but Indian military action on Pak soil with GoP blessings is not happening.

Of course, you may be right. I only said that it might be a far fetched possibility, but a possibility nonetheless.
GoP is already under immense international pressure to do 'more' following last year's attacks. If any new attack occurs and its traced to Pakistani soil, countries are going to lose patience and may pressure the GoP, more importantly Pak Army to do the unthinkable. Just may be!
What good are those imaginary red lines if they prove to be a cause for more trouble my friend?

 

[grey boy 2]

AM, India does not consider Kashmir a disputed territory, even if UN does. It is an integrated state of India with considerably more powers to the State legislature than other Indian states. It is not going to be resolved, that a big if, anytime soon.
I was talking about Indo-Pak interaction at the Govt/Military level, if - God forbid - another Mumbai style terrorist attack occurs on Indian soil, wth its origins traced to Pak soil.
No matter how you want to look at it, given the present scenario and each one's standing in the international community, Pakistan stands to loose a lot, Kashmir will be pushed back and talks will center around CBMs and trade. India is NOT giving up Kashmir anytime soon. Too risky from Indian pov.

To me, Indians got a very strange mind set or mentality, logic;

(1) Idians judge on how to deal with their neighbors according to

weak or strong not reasoning, if considered weaker than India, she

will try to impose her will to you, if any neigotiation ,according to her

terms. Even escalate any conflicts inorder to apply pressure to her

advantage.

(2) When Indians dealing with a neighbor that was stronger , they will

down play any conflicts to save face, play the victims card and using

her media to draw attention how her stronger neighbor was the

aggressor to gain international sympathy.

(3) Never learn the art of neigotiation, always start with ' NO'

thats not neigotiable ! Thats probably the reason why India can't

resolve any problems or conflicts with her neighbors.

Indians need to change their mind set in order to bring peace to the

region, and must do it now or never.

 

[Hulk]

To me, Indians got a very strange mind set or mentality, logic;

(3) Never learn the art of neigotiation, always start with ' NO'

thats not neigotiable ! Thats probably the reason why India can't

resolve any problems or conflicts with her neighbors.

Indians need to change their mind set in order to bring peace to the

region, and must do it now or never.

Easy to preach, have you learned how to negotiate with Tibet. So easier said then done, stop preaching.

 

[quriosity]

To me, Indians got a very strange mind set or mentality, logic;

(1) Idians judge on how to deal with their neighbors according to

weak or strong not reasoning, if considered weaker than India, she

will try to impose her will to you, if any neigotiation ,according to her

terms. Even escalate any conflicts inorder to apply pressure to her

advantage.

(2) When Indians dealing with a neighbor that was stronger , they will

down play any conflicts to save face, play the victims card and using

her media to draw attention how her stronger neighbor was the

aggressor to gain international sympathy.

(3) Never learn the art of neigotiation, always start with ' NO'

thats not neigotiable ! Thats probably the reason why India can't

resolve any problems or conflicts with her neighbors.

Indians need to change their mind set in order to bring peace to the

region, and must do it now or never.

You just began to understand Indian diplomacy.

Anyway, Indians will never change their mind set. Dont expect that. You need to change to deal with such diplomacy.

 

[quriosity]

Easy to preach, have you learned how to negotiate with Tibet. So easier said then done, stop preaching.

Why stop preaching...?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Of course, you may be right. I only said that it might be a far fetched possibility, but a possibility nonetheless.
GoP is already under immense international pressure to do 'more' following last year's attacks. If any new attack occurs and its traced to Pakistani soil, countries are going to lose patience and may pressure the GoP, more importantly Pak Army to do the unthinkable. Just may be!

I would argue that if the trial of the 7 accused is progressing well at that point, or even better, if the seven accused have been tried and found guilty, pressure will be minimized as a result of Pakistan showing tangible progress - Pakistan will point to those actions and promise that it will pursue any other perpetrators similarly.

If necessary, Pakistan will dismantle/shutdown any 'camps' or sites linked with any alleged perpetrators, similar to what it did with the LeT. So the argument that Pakistan would have no option but to allow Indian military intervention on its soil is not valid, given the range of options Pakistan can exercise to address valid Indian concerns regarding any alleged perpetrators.

What good are those imaginary red lines if they prove to be a cause for more trouble my friend?

And the mother of those 'red lines' is the Indian opposition to resolving Kashmir by allowing a plebiscite in any of the various configurations suggested. To turn that question around to you - what use is that Indian red line given how much hostility and chaos it has caused, and how much it prevents Indo-Pak normalization and cooperation on multitudes of issues that would improve even faster the lot of the people in both nations?

 

[gubbi]

I would argue that if the trial of the 7 accused is progressing well at that point, or even better, if the seven accused have been tried and found guilty, pressure will be minimized as a result of Pakistan showing tangible progress - Pakistan will point to those actions and promise that it will pursue any other perpetrators similarly.

If necessary, Pakistan will dismantle/shutdown any 'camps' or sites linked with any alleged perpetrators, similar to what it did with the LeT. So the argument that Pakistan would have no option but to allow Indian military intervention on its soil is not valid, given the range of options Pakistan can exercise to address valid Indian concerns regarding any alleged perpetrators.

That is exactly what India wants Pakistan to do. Do you see what India did there? All the diplomatic efforts are to force Pakistan to do what India has been demanding. If these demands are met, then a possibility of a terrorist attack slims down considerably.
The whole point is to make GoP responsible for the actions of its citizens over whom it exercises, for want of a better word atm, its control. A flimsy 'non-state' actors excuse, honestly, doesn't hold much water and the GoP has to bring such elements to book! If that happens, the likelihood of an attack being planned and executed on India would be very slim. There then wouldn't be any reason for India to exercise her military option. Simple. (its not that simple I know )

And the mother of those 'red lines' is the Indian opposition to resolving Kashmir by allowing a plebiscite in any of the various configurations suggested. To turn that question around to you - what use is that Indian red line given how much hostility and chaos it has caused, and how much it prevents Indo-Pak normalization and cooperation on multitudes of issues that would improve even faster the lot of the people in both nations?

I would disagree with you here. Unlike Pakistan who claims Kashmir over the absurd reason that its a Muslim majority state, and feigns supporting Kashmiris for their right to self determination, ultimately wanting to absorb the area into Pakistani federation, India already considers Jammu and Kashmir in its entirety as an integral part of India. We consider Pakistan as intruders and occupiers of a part of our land. That is the major difference in our points of view.
But from you point of view your argument is logical. And our point of view doesnt effectively counter yours. We got to agree to disagree here.
There are far more important things to work upon between our two nations than Kashmir. Kashmir will be relegated to the backburner and talks at this stage will concentrate more on CBMs and trade. With my limited exposure and knowledge, thats how I see things progressing. I may be wrong though.

 

[IceCold]

Of course it will seem lame, but set aside your patriotic feelings and denial of your own weaknesses and think real hard. In today's geopolitics Pakistan is at a crossroads. The direction it chooses will depend on how far sighted its leaders are. Either way, whichever direction your leaders wish to embark upon, rest assured, you will face short term losses. But depending on the direction, one might be a blessing in disguise and the other a curse. I think your leaders know where they are heading.
Its far more complicated than what our simple brains can comprehend. There are teams of thinktanks weighing pros and cons of every available option before deciding on what is acceptable and what is not.

The highlighted part is the reason why i consider your argument lame. As for the short term losses, maybe you need to think real hard and keep aside rhetoric and chest thumping, you will realize that those short term losses that you are talkin about means people of Pakistan will loose faith not just in their government(which is already low) but also in the armed forces of Pakistan(which are highly regarded), that also means that the armed forces of Pakistan maybe dismantled(after all whats the use if they cant protect). What you are talking about is an insult to the injury and the breaking of Pakistan as a country as a society and that is not going to happen and no one can make it happen neither you nor the unkil or anyone else.
Let me try to give you a short answer when 26/11 happened, and Indian jets violated Pakistan airspace our government quickly downplayed it which was a stupid move to begin with but we can expect that and Mullen arrived and meet Kyani to tell him to allow India a few surgical strikes on Pakistan and in reply what Kyani said to him was a photo shown and told him we will bring it down next time. Understand something before being such naive and i hope your government isnt as naive as you are, Pakistan does not spend this much on arms just because who ever wishes can attack Pakistan while we sit and watch, if that was the case we would have seen Indian aggression both after parliament attack and 26/11.

You cannot tell whether an incoming missile, cruise or not, is carrying a nuclear warhead or a conventional one. No one can. Neither can US nor Russia nor EU nor China. The whole cold-war was based on second and third strike, triad etc capability. Didnt you ever wonder why?

Dont tell me you actually mean that. Tell me what does a nuclear command and control center does. And CM are used to attack militarly installations and so have been acknowledged by various Indian defence analyst. Do you think that if RAAD is fired upon Indian bases it will be mistaken as a nuclear strike by India?

If India knew what your missile's warhead was carrying then apparently Indian forces know the location from where it would be launched and by extrapolation they already know the location of all your nuclear tipped missiles. Neither is Pakistan going to warn India that its launching a nuclear missile or a conventional one. Makes sense?

False as cruise missiles are stealth and besides dont forget that Pakistan has tels for both its ballistic and cruise missiles. We dont have silos where you can actually attack.

In such a case are we going to wait for you to launch a nuclear tipped missile? Or would there be a pre-emptive strike to take out those batteries/silos?

You are going way ahead over yourself and have an over estimation about IAF, why do you forget that before netrualizing Pakistani ground based assests you will have to netrualize PAF.Also both Pakistan and India have an aggrement not to attack eachothers nuclear installations and any attack by Indians on one of those site will 100% gurrantee a nuclear reply. That is how things work.

So my assumption still stands. Any missile launched by Pakistan will be treated as a nuclear attack drawing a "massive" Indian retaliation. Period. This is the line of thought in defense circles these days. Like I said, Pakistan's missile arsenal is presently worthless vis-a-vis India, unless you want to start a nuclear war. In that case again, Pakistan is the one to face the heat and not India. Any senior members with experience can refute this?
Gotta think real hard my friend. Countries and their policies don't practically run on emotions.

Thats a false assumption which is not based on any facts whatsoever rather some Youtube video when it says Bharat uttai ga 10 kadam or Pakistan ho jai ga khatam.

ps: theres yellow journalism, there journalism masquerading as serious work and then theres serious journalism itself. Inbetween theres satire and serious work cloaked as a joke. It up to ones capability as to filter out the riff-raff from the serious stuff. Ever read serious articles from Indian journos? Why not post those?

That is for your kind to differentiate and not us. I am on many occasions highlighted a part by one of your actors i think arjun raampal was his name where he said that its not right to shift blame on Pakistan everytime something goes wrong and we need to look inside. Same stands for the general population if they fell for Indian media war jingoism or think rationally it is for them to deicide but the decision that they make will surely effect the future generations of the whole SA.

 

[desiman]

What!!! U have been reading too much of Bharat Verma & Indian Defence Review, stop reading it
U want to say that ISI must let RAW operate in PAkistan, which is already involved in killing many innocent Pakistanis, is their supporting Baloch insurgency operating from Consulates in Afgh, , next day Pakistan can also make claim that this happened from India & India hasn't controlled them so now they must let ISI in, will u people let them in, In Samjhota Express Pakistani nationals were killed should we start claiming that it is concerned with Pak so let ISI or IB in, wat a utter BS...
U ppl first said Lakhvi is master many now master mind is Hafiz Saeed, i want to know how many times u ppl are going to change the master mind title ???
Give enough proof to convict & stop giving irresponsible statements like 'another plan is to carried out' & stick to one stance, in Sharm Al Sheikh the stance is differnet & once home it changes, First decide among your selves what are u ppl going to do



Kshmir is an Issue & 26/11 is also an issue u cant escape any of 'em..

There is a problem about this 'Course of investigation' i.e. in this course of investigation Indians take too many U turns, i dont think i need to give u examples

And you know what buddy i think most pakistani's here have been reading too much of Zaid Hamid lol Get a grip over reality and stop crying. If you think RAW is the one causing all the problems then go to the UN and get it banned, but let me guess that wont happen because no one wants to listen to pakistan at the UN and pakistan has no proof atall against RAW so get proof first then talk. India has documented proof that pakistan is spreading terrorism in India and many times pakistan has accepted that themselves. I dont need to give you proof for that there is already enough. Now comes 26/11, people nuclear weapons is not your uncles toy that you can threaten anyone with it. I hate it when pakistanis say that india is scared of nuclear weapons and that is why it will never attack pakistan. Nuclear weapons is very very big thing so please dont talk like that about them. Pakistan does not have a no first use policy because it knows that it stand no chance against india in a conventional war (which is a fact no matter what other people say), so pakistan will always keep nuclear weapons as its last option but again once pakistan uses nuclear weapons, it must realize that it will be totally wiped out from the face of the planet because of the amount of nuclear weapons india has and because of the size of pakistan. India also has an active anti-ballistic missile capability so there are chances that the missile wont even make it to India. Nuclear weapons create devastation like no other thing in the world so please dont talk about nuclear weapons like that, pakistan can just use nuclear weapons and just sit there peacefully also.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That is exactly what India wants Pakistan to do.

But that is exactly what Pakistan said it would do from the get go, and is doing ... India's complaints are over hafiz Saeed, where Pakistan has pointed out legitimate holes in the evidence provided by India.

The whole point is to make GoP responsible for the actions of its citizens over whom it exercises, for want of a better word atm, its control.

But as I pointed out already, no state has been able to exercise absolute control over criminal elements, and given the instability in FATA, the chances of another Mumbai are probably more than slim, despite Pakistan's efforts in cracking down on the LeT and others.

I would disagree with you here. Unlike Pakistan who claims Kashmir over the absurd reason that its a Muslim majority state, and feigns supporting Kashmiris for their right to self determination, ultimately wanting to absorb the area into Pakistani federation,

Absolute hogwash - we claim Kashmir under the rules of partition that called for a plebiscite to determine the status of any disputed territory. Mountbatten reiterated that point when accepting the Instrument of Accession, it was reiterated repeatedly by the Indian government, and was reflected in the UNSC resolutions, which India also accepted.

India already considers Jammu and Kashmir in its entirety as an integral part of India. We consider Pakistan as intruders and occupiers of a part of our land. That is the major difference in our points of view.

It doesn't matter what you think, your position is in violation of the UNSC resolutions accepted by India, violation of rules of partition and in violation of your own commitment to a plebiscite. You cannot for example claim that 'India considers California an integral part of India, blah blah blah' and think that is a valid position that will be accepted by anyone outside of India. Your argument is illogical.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If you think RAW is the one causing all the problems then go to the UN and get it banned, but let me guess that wont happen because no one wants to listen to pakistan at the UN and pakistan has no proof atall against RAW so get proof first then talk.

Any luck getting the ISI banned?
Because the Indian government, media and posters sure as heck whine about it all the time...

India has documented proof that pakistan is spreading terrorism in India and many times pakistan has accepted that themselves.

No documented proof, otherwise Pakistan would have been declared a state sponsor of terrorism. And Kashmir is not India and fighting the Indian security forces is not terrorism.

 

[FireFighter]

anyways this off topic.....

We also have a organization glorified by you and fellow mates RAW. And ISI and Pakistan will be helping us with aids and intelligence dont worry after the latest aid bill.

Of course there will be retaliation from Taliban else why the hell would be India invited to join.

You kicked the soviets because US was behind you or do you expect to fight the USSR of 80s. Heard of its arsenal.

Anyways Afghanistan is of stratergic importance for us.

The ISI and Pakistan might be helping you with one hand, however they might be giving the other hand to some one else ....

Now we have China behind us, which is even better for the future , so you still think its worth carrying out misadventures in Afghanistan?

You still think you can bring down the morale of a Nuclear Power with your dirty tricks and International Pressure? You think you can bring the people of Pakistan and PA down to the knees?

You kid me not.

 

[gurbakash]

can India do that ? If yes and if India goes for any attack withing Pakistan what will be its implications.

1. It will unite entire Pakistan, State and non-state actors(Can we read it as Terrorist), Taliban(Terrorist Again), Islamists, liberals, common man in the streets, alot of backing for the country's forces. So bring it on
You mean to say any strike by india will result in unity of terrorist and state.

2. More hostilities for Indian Muslims from own Indian Hindu majority, Again good for Pakistan.( How can a surgical strike on terror camps results in hostilities on indian Muslims)

3. More self-formation of aggressive groups(May i call them terrorist as they have no agenda other than terror)who will not only work against India on their own as well as with some support from every corner, But these aggressive groups will also Harm US interests.

4. If US interests are harmed and more insecurity fro US citizens formed, US wont take it with a smile.

5. Day dreaming on such a big and important scale is tooooooo harmful for Indians so lay off dear.

How can these non state actors are not termed as Terrorists.

 

[gogbot]

LOL
How is this thread still going on
The title of the thread it self insinuates Pakistan as sponsoring Terrorism.

India can do nothing if there is another Mumbai

This is a threat.

And this thread is full of posts by members who are demanding things from India.

This is terrorist demand and nothing else.
Give us what we want or else

India can do nothing if there is another Mumbai