Inconsistency in design of AMCA’s Internal Weapons Bay

[$@rJen]

Inconsistency in design of AMCA’s Internal Weapons Bay
PublishedNovember 14, 2015

SOURCE: SUDESH CHARI / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

One of the most critical nose-on low observability design elements going into a Stealth fighter jet is internal weapons bays. for Stealth missions aircraft entirely and critically depends on in its Internal weapons to carry out suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) or Strike missions in hostile enemy territories.

India’s own 5th generation fighter AMCA Program is all set to take off and official funding for the project is likely to be cleared by the end of this year. with aerodynamic design optimisation nearly completed AMCA’s final design is more or less frozen, but it still seems there is lack of clarity on AMCA’s Internal Weapons bay design aspect.

Above Computer design images released by Advanced Projects & Technologies (AP&T) Directorate of India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) few years back showed smaller side weapons bay like exactly found on F-22 Raptor which could store an Air-Air missile and can be used in a Dogfight.

Earlier images showed Two load of 1000lb PGMs along with Two Air-to-Air BVRAAMs in its Main Internal Weapons bay while Two Side bays at each side showcased one Close Combat ranged WVR missiles each, which was nearly identical to F-22 Weapons load configuration with similar looking weapons bays.

Latest computer design images released by ADA earlier this year at sidelines of Aero India have completely eliminated side internal weapons bay for reasons never officially explained thus indicating Internal weapons carrying capability of AMCA has been further lowered.

Above images released by ADA shows 3 possible configurations of Internal weapons bay. 1st image shows AMCA carrying 5 Medium ranged beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) which looks quite familiar to American AIM-120 AMRAAM, a missile which India has never operated in any of its fighter aircraft fleet.

In 2nd image, AMCA is shown carrying Russian Vympel R-77 RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) medium-range air-to-air missile which are operated by Indian Air Force but due to a bigger diameters of the missile than American AIM-120 AMRAAM carriage capacity has been limited to 4 missiles under its main weapons load.

In the 3rd image, AMCA is shown carrying Two bombs which are very similar to American GBU-31/32/38 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM), along with two Medium ranged beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles.

Current images of Internal weapons bay suggests that they will not be deep enough to hold indigenously manufactured Sudarshan laser-guided bombs (LGB) nor shows Indian designed Astra BVRAAMs currently at the developmental stage.

Inconsistency in designs of Internal weapons bay suggests that final weapons configuration of AMCA has still not been arrived yet by ADA and Indian Air force.

lack of Indigenously developed BVRs and Bombs optimised for carriage in Internal weapons bay will greatly hinder Internal weapons bays design of AMCA. Internal Bay will need to be constantly optimised at regular intervals till most of India’s future weapons systems are miniaturized for operations from Internal weapons bays.

India will need to fast track development of indigenous weapons systems or miniaturization of developed weapons systems so that when AMCA is ready for production its weaponry are in place before induction into air force .

 

[Skull and Bones]

I imagined something like a revolver kind of mechanism to release weapons from the bay, can store more weapons in a compact space.

 

[Beast]

I imagined something like a revolver kind of mechanism to release weapons from the bay, can store more weapons in a compact space.

That is not possible with such limited space.

 

[$@rJen]

I imagined something like a revolver kind of mechanism to release weapons from the bay, can store more weapons in a compact space.

like f-35!! F-35 is so fat it can have such a ssystem, while amca is slim

 

[SR-91]

I imagined something like a revolver kind of mechanism to release weapons from the bay, can store more weapons in a compact space.

Nice, Would be cool to have a missile magazine.

I imagined something like a double decker or like a moving tray of missiles.

 

[Srinivas]

first let the prototype roll out ..... ADA, DRDO has a reputation of making good drawings of defense toys and boasting about them.

 

[kaykay]

Astra is slimmer and smaller than AIM-120 so I expect Astra would be carried in same configuration as shown for AIM-120s.

 

[Perpendicular]

first let the prototype roll out ..... ADA, DRDO has a reputation of making good drawings of defense toys and boasting about them.

A big doubt I have on capabilities of these two organizations to deliver true stealth fighter with 5th gen tech in it.

 

[halupridol]

A big doubt I have on capabilities of these two organizations to deliver true stealth fighter with 5th gen tech in it.

i feel,its like expecting a matric fail student to get a phd.

 

[satish]

Are the specifications on the Wikipedia site are correct?

If they are then wing loading will be too high and aircraft won't be maneuverable and it will have sluggish acceleration.

Air craft will not have much wing for the weight.

 

[zebra7]

A big doubt I have on capabilities of these two organizations to deliver true stealth fighter with 5th gen tech in it.

ADA is not asking for the Mammoth money for the development of the AMCA preliminary design and prototype. And with its LCA program ADA did achieve lot of things and I have no reason to doubt ADA for not developing what they feel they can (No change of the ASR).

 

[zebra7]

OneIndia Exclusive: India’s stealth fighter dream moves towards reality
Written by: Dr Anantha Krishnan M
Updated: Saturday, February 14, 2015, 10:10 [IST]

Bengaluru, Feb 14: India's valiant attempt in developing a gen-next stealth fighter seems to be gathering some momentum with the scientists from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) claiming that the Project Definition Phase (PDP) will be over within a year.

While some of the stealth features remain as a ‘beyond-visual-technology' for India, even as this report is being put together, the DRDO officials are convinced that embedding global players and increasing the private participation could well be the breakthrough in realizing their dreams. Super-cruise, stealth and thrust vectoring are critical features DRDO would need to thrash out in the process.

Stealth fighter dream takes shape

While Aero India is normally seen as a ‘carnival of claims,' the DRDO top brass have put up a confident argument that the lessons learnt from developing a four-and-a-half-generation fighter (Tejas) will act as a their guiding force while entering into the hitherto unknown 5th generation terrain.

AMCA Directorate takes confident shape

The AMCA Directorate at Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is being headed by Dr A K Ghosh. As the Project Director, he has stayed away from the media glare all these years. Access to this Directorate is absolutely restricted and any information sought on AMCA travels many channels of approvals before flying out of the ADA HQ. Even not many details are officially known about the size of the AMCA team.

However, military sources confirm to OneIndia that a core team of 200 designers, with an additional outsourced manpower of 2000 more, is likely to work for the project during the Detailed Design Phase. Once the key players in the project get picked up, 500 more scientists will be added to the tally, working at various partner site(s).

Feasibility projects have been completed

The AMCA dream has crossed the first milestone with all feasibility projects getting completed. Confirmatory tests like Low Speed Wind Tunnel test, High Speed Wind Tunnel Test and RCS Test have been carried out. "The AMCA configuration has been frozen," says Dr K Tamilmani, Director General (Aero), DRDO.

Currently, systems and inboards finalization activities are being carried out towards system definition. Simultaneously, many advance technology projects -- mostly critical in nature -- are being pursued by the team.

Stealth fighter dream takes shape

Sources say that AMCA will have to cross five key phases before becoming a reality. They include: PDP, Detail Design Phase (DDP), Development Phase, Flight Test and Certification Test. "We are targeting the first flight towards the end of 2020," claims Dr Tamilmani.

The DRDO hopes to move the all-important ‘Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) Paper on AMCA' seeking more funds next year. Currently the programme is being initiated with the seed money of Rs 100 crore. In the PDP, 18 systems need to be identified. Metal cutting is expected to take place after DDP and Critical Design Review (CDR).

Nine prototypes planned

ADA Director P S Subramnaiam confirms to OneIndia that a total of nine prototypes would roll out of the AMCA hangar, starting 2020. "Extensive private participation is envisaged throughout the project, right from DDP to production," says Subramaniam. He says that a large number of DRDO and CSIR labs, IITs, IISc and private industries are already involved in the AMCA project.

Stealth fighter dream takes shape

Dr Ghosh refuses to divulge many details, but says that a static model to be displayed at Aero India 2015 would roughly give an idea of the possible AMCA look. "We also have a video showing the likely features and capabilities of AMCA," he adds.

Talks on the project during Aero India

With India riding on an absolute dismal record in developing power plants for planes, the DRDO is hoping to make some moves and find a solution during Aero India. "We are looking at both the US and Russia who have immense expertise in engine and stealth technology.

Considering the high-end, critical technologies involved in a stealth programme, a government-to-government project would be the best for the AMCA engine. Make in India is our flag-bearer theme for projects now and hence AMCA will strictly travel through the same philosophy," says Dr Tamilmani.

Stealth fighter dream takes shape

AMCA to be loaded with gen-next features

* Serpentine air intake
* Internal weapon release at high speed
* Integrated flight propulsion controls
* Shared apertures
* Gen-next display systems with touch panels
* Advanced sensors like AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar and IRST (Infra Red Search and Track)
* MAWS (Missile Approach Warning System)
* Stealth materials
* Advanced aluminum and titanium alloys
* Supercruise technology
* Advanced avionics based on IMA (Integrated Modular Architecture)
* Pilot associate to reduce pilot workload

Crucial capabilities

* SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defense)
* DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defense)
* Precision strike

 

[satish]

Before building AMCA we should first evaluate if stealth works in actual combat. So far it has only been advertised, not tested in actual combat. So far evidence has shown that stealth did not work in actual combat, as Serbia was able to shot down f-117.

 

[desimorty]

Before building AMCA we should first evaluate if stealth works in actual combat. So far it has only been advertised, not tested in actual combat. So far evidence has shown that stealth did not work in actual combat, as Serbia was able to shot down f-117.

Source: Inconsistency in design of AMCA’s Internal Weapons Bay

WTF are you talking about? Stealth has a lot of forms. The AIM of AMCA is 3 teir stealth.
1- RCS reduction
2- Heat reduction
3 - EW
All these are necessary for stealth. A F-22 flying alone is not stealthy. Because the F-22 would have to turn on its radar, which gives its location away to other aircraft or ground defence systems. Hence why F-22 works on radio silence mode while AWACs or other aircraft track targets and pass on the information to the Raptors.
So you need other capability like created a network of connected aircraft and ground defence systems in order to keep aircraft be it 4 or 5th gen aware and useful.
If you wanna know how the concept works, just ask the Russians. They have a working model of a stealth aircraft and anti stealth radar.

 

[zebra7]

WTF are you talking about? Stealth has a lot of forms. The AIM of AMCA is 3 teir stealth.
1- RCS reduction
2- Heat reduction
3 - EW
All these are necessary for stealth. A F-22 flying alone is not stealthy. Because the F-22 would have to turn on its radar, which gives its location away to other aircraft or ground defence systems. Hence why F-22 works on radio silence mode while AWACs or other aircraft track targets and pass on the information to the Raptors.
So you need other capability like created a network of connected aircraft and ground defence systems in order to keep aircraft be it 4 or 5th gen aware and useful.
If you wanna know how the concept works, just ask the Russians. They have a working model of a stealth aircraft and anti stealth radar.

F-22 is a beast in the sky.
When we are talking about the stealth, its not an invisible one, but AMCA is needed for the first wave of the IAF to breach the enemy lines, in high, multi threat environment, when most of the enemy defensive, and surveillance equipments are intact.

1. RCS reduction - The shaping of AMCA looks promising, plus the serpentine airintake duct adds to stealth. For the skin, I think ADA will again go for the composites, and NAL have to come up with exclusive composite for the stealth material. Tin Irridium Oxide Compound aka Ram coating, have been developed by the DRDO long ago, but how much is it effective, have to be seen. In F-22 its the special skin that covers its surface, which need constant and quick replacement and maintainance. From Russia, we heard some news of experiment of the Plasma stealth.

2. Heat Reduction -- The shape of AMCA is fine, and the tail hides some of the engine heat, but not like the US F-22 which has flat engine outlet, and the engine is completely hidden from sides. If I consider F-414IN EPE X 2 engine used in AMCA, then question arises, whether ADA goes for TVC or not. I think India should start Kaveri-2 with 120 Ktn target.

3. EW - Now this is the field which is very important. DRDO/DARE can designed EW suites, comprises of AESA MMR, Maws, RWR, LWR, IRST, OLS, iFF,Internal Jammer, Targeting Pod, Secured link, and Radio. taking various components off the self. HAL have experience in the mission computer with the HAL/Edgewood Mission and display computer in MKI and LCA, and could work for more powerful computer for the data fussion, and better situation awareness.

Brother @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @dadeechi @AMCA @nForce For me 5th Gen fighter plane is not just a plane, but its a system, and a plane is just small component of that system. In that system, all the components works together in the coordinated, and comunicationg to each other. IT include not only a plane, satellite, smart weapons, and all the sensors, which aided with the computing power actually gives Pilot the broad view image of the whole battlefield, and the load of options to choose the best one for achieving the target of the Mission. Your thoughts