"If the Saudis do anything ignorant, we will leave no area untouched except Mecca and Medina"

[Hellfire]

Ahaha. Why would you want to serve in the most overrated military in the world?

Since Saudis outsource their fighting to anyone gullible enough to fight on their behalf, same as UAE?

George S Patton did say: "Let the other Bastard die" ( I left the 'for his country' )

 

[Finer]

@Fallen King

Sorry my friend I don't believe in anything that contradicts Quran .......... Quran is my source and light to guidance in these troubling times, you can also refer

53:35 , 6:50, 7:188, 10:20, 72:26 and many other and see for yourself what Quran has to say.

Again I will say Muslims are fooled and trapped into killing themselves by their own hands, this trap isn't a day's work but spans over centuries. It's all a man written script and Muslims consider it holy.

The only viable option is to Unite and remain united. And the only source for unity is Quran. Understand and implement it and Muslims will be rewarded and in turn Humanity will prosper ............. stay divided and we will remain cursed by our own actions ........ no Imam or anyone else can help to change that.

I am gonna give you short answer that should suffice.

Islam is only complete when Holy Quran and Authentic Hadith are taken into the account; GOD's words and the recording of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) altogether. Without one to other, Islam is incomplete. GOD made it that way to ensure the connection to Prophet-hood is not cut off.

So naturally, i am gonna take the prophecy [future, the last hour] of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) into account, and that includes his narrations on Friends of Allah as the sign of guidance and hope to rekindle the faith. And i am not gonna further the debate anymore since we have strayed from the topic.

Can't you see Muslims are slaughtered because they remain divided? It is simple common sense why would we need any prophecies to understand this.

And why Muslim world is divided? You shot 'Why' down the drain which has been explained in my previous lengthy post. You cannot say the world is divided and that will be end of it.

 

[I.R.A]

And i am not gonna further the debate anymore since we have strayed from the topic.

This is the topic ....... Quran vs Hear say .............. . This rivalry is based on it. A parallel religion for the sake of misguiding and avenging the humiliation brought to a super power of its time ..... by whom ........ simple people who believed firmly in Quran. Umer (May ALLAH be pleased with him) was the one who said "ALLAH's book is sufficient for us" and he really was a free thinking liberal Muslim.

Anyways I will respect your decision and won't drag the discussion any further with you. Everyone to his own thinking and choice.

 

[Finer]

This is the topic ....... Quran vs Hear say .............. . This rivalry is based on it. A parallel religion for the sake of misguiding and avenging the humiliation brought to a super power of its time ..... by whom ........ simple people who believed firmly in Quran. Umer (May ALLAH be pleased with him) was the one who said "ALLAH's book is sufficient for us" and he really was a free thinking liberal Muslim.

Anyways I will respect your decision and won't drag the discussion any further with you. Everyone to his own thinking and choice.

On bold;

His quotes are found in Authentic Hadith which you are trying to discredit. Now you see the irony of it. Surely you can see that since you too are man of reason.

P.S: We are straying from the topic to be honest.

 

[I.R.A]

P.S: We are straying from the topic to be honest.

This is the topic. This rivalry is very much based on this, this division of Muslims into ever increasing sects and sub sects stems from hearsay, if you don't want to accept that your choice .........

Let me give you an example from our own country, the barbarians who killed little innocent children and university students, the thugs / criminals who killed people in their worship places, markets ......... had their reasons based on hear say. The idiots who go on killing people for mere suspicion of blasphemy have their justifications based on hearsay. Sectarian outfits that kill each other have their reasons from their own hearsay books.

You can ignore this but the fact of the matter is Muslim killing each other stems out of hear say .......... None of them would find any justification for their actions in Quran ........ Even Saudi kings would fail to justify their kingship based on Quran.

On bold;

His quotes are found in Authentic Hadith which you are trying to discredit. Now you see the irony of it. Surely you can see that since you too are man of reason.

Do you know how many hearsay Bukhari had collected? Around 700,000 and how many he selected on his own discretion? some 2000+ only ............ its not me only who is cautious the one who collected these hearsay himself wasn't sure.

And my friend all of companions of Messenger (Peace be upon him) destroyed their collection of authentic sayings of Messenger, Abu Bakar couldn't sleep at nights because he had a collection of around 500 sayings and finally burnt that collection, Umer during his rein ordered all people whosoever had any collection of sayings of Messenger to destroy and burn those collections .......... Umer even went on to tell Abu Huraira that if he doesn't stop with spreading sayings of Messenger, He (Abu Huraira) will be forced to leave and even after that if he doesn't stop he will be punished. My friend Abu Bakar spent nearly 23 years with Messenger and had a collection of 500 sayings only whereas Abu Huraira just spent two years and He quotes Messenger more than anyone else.

There was only one book and that was Quran and no other book. Hear say wants you to believe that Quran was given a book form after departure of Messenger (Peace be upon him), but Quran itself starts with calling it a Book. And not only calls itself a book but confirms that all Messengers of ALLAH were given books.

There were mujtahids in the time of the Companions who forbade their fatwas to be recorded and even forbade the Sunna to be written down, so that there would be no confusion between it and the Book of Allah.

So any book that mentions any companion doesn't become holy or authentic just because it mentions / quotes companion of Messenger.

If you have the courage and you don't get offended I can give you examples (from the books which people think are most authentic books of hearsay) of how these hearsay collected after nearly two centuries of Messenger were devised to throw insults at Messenger (Peace be upon him), His companions (May ALLAH be pleased with them) and His wives (May ALLAH be pleased with them) and are full of contradictions.

 

[Finer]

This is the topic. This rivalry is very much based on this, this division of Muslims into ever increasing sects and sub sects stems from hearsay, if you don't want to accept that your choice .........

The topic is about geopolitics relates to KSA and Iran. I am afraid we are straying from the topic.

And my friend all of companions of Messenger (Peace be upon him) destroyed their collection of authentic sayings of Messenger, Abu Bakar couldn't sleep at nights because he had a collection of around 500 sayings and finally burnt that collection, Umer during his rein ordered all people whosoever had any collection of sayings of Messenger to destroy and burn those collections .......... Umer even went on to tell Abu Huraira that if he doesn't stop with spreading sayings of Messenger, He (Abu Huraira) will be forced to leave and even after that if he doesn't stop he will be punished. My friend Abu Bakar spent nearly 23 years with Messenger and had a collection of 500 sayings only whereas Abu Huraira just spent two years and He quotes Messenger more than anyone else.

There was only one book and that was Quran and no other book. Hear say wants you to believe that Quran was given a book form after departure of Messenger (Peace be upon him), but Quran itself starts with calling it a Book. And not only calls itself a book but confirms that all Messengers of ALLAH were given books.



So any book that mentions any companion doesn't become holy or authentic just because it mentions / quotes companion of Messenger.

If you have the courage and you don't get offended I can give you examples (from the books which people think are most authentic books of hearsay) of how these hearsay collected after nearly two centuries of Messenger were devised to throw insults at Messenger (Peace be upon him), His companions (May ALLAH be pleased with them) and His wives (May ALLAH be pleased with them) and are full of contradictions.

While our debate is on whether Holy Quran is complete with or without Authentic Hadith, but going back to the history will not change the fact that Holy Quran is not complete without Authentic Hadith. One of many reasons is the commentary that records the great detail which covers extensively on to what results the materialization of each verses of Holy Quran. Without background or context, it is easier to manipulate Holy Quran alone without secondary source.

Not only that, we are talking about overall the customs of Islam such as procedure of five times prayers, Eid, Ramadan, rituals of Hajj, Umhra, calender of Islam, the process of ablution, and many more. In fact, you used one quote by yourself to made the crucial point which proved viable crucial why Holy Quran is not complete without Authentic Hadith.

And it is coming from someone who oppose blasphemy laws and sectarians that are drawn on the Hadiths [selective use] and put Khawarij on map using those sources.

Yet at the same time, Islam remains incomplete without Authentic Hadiths that provides context and background behind each verses of Holy Quran. Most people have no idea why each verses are revealed while the topic on related to verses are mentioned but the origin of each verses are covered extensively can be found only in Authentic Hadiths. That is just tip of iceberg counting more examples such as lifestyle that comes with the ritual in Hajj, procedure of prayers and ablution, Eid and many more. How do you discredit Authentic Hadith and yet apply its daily-use information on life everyday?

 

[I.R.A]

The topic is about geopolitics relates to KSA and Iran. I am afraid we are straying from the topic.

Centuries old geopolitics my friend right from the time when Hazrat Umer (faced with an awkward situation) spared the life of persian military leader Harmazan.


Regarding your point that Quran is incomplete without any hearsay .......... my friend this is wrong on so many levels that I don't dare think of this. Quran is simple and complete to understand I didn't once have any problems understanding while reading a bare translation. But shedding my preconceived ideas helped me a lot to understand the clear message. There is only one Hadeeth and that is Quran.

Do you even know who Tabri was? Or who Zehri was?

For starters you quoted how would we know about 5 times prayers? Spare sometime and see how many times and at what times Zoroastrians pray.

Read this thread and if you feel comfortable we can continue our discussion there. If you don't mind I am occupied right now but if you tag me in this other thread we can continue there

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/interpreting-the-holy-quran.491128/

 

[Finer]

Centuries old geopolitics my friend right from the time when Hazrat Umer (faced with an awkward situation) spared the life of persian military leader Harmazan.

True but nonetheless, it is current geopolitics that the thread is based on.

Regarding your point that Quran is incomplete without any hearsay .......... my friend this is wrong on so many levels that I don't dare think of this. Quran is simple and complete to understand I didn't once have any problems understanding while reading a bare translation. But shedding my preconceived ideas helped me a lot to understand the clear message. There is only one Hadeeth and that is Quran.

If Holy Quran was simple, then there would be no confusion today. Holy Quran was revealed in classical language of Arabic which to this day modern Arabs don't grasp to the similar understanding of each verses in the classical Arab language. On the top of it, if they take Holy Quran alone, that leaves out the commentary which includes the context and background, and without them, the verse can be literally manipulated.

For example, kill the unbeliever. See how easy it is to manipulate the verse? If you include the context and background, then you will realize that they discuss the whole scenario which had unpleasant exchange between Quraish and Muslims in regards to negotiation in the past which resulted into the wars which Muslims partook only to defend themselves against the attack.

Take out the whole context and background meaning Authentic Hadiths, you are gonna get Wahabi and Salafi in angry mood shouting 'unbeliever'. Now you see why there is the confusion to begin with.

Even then, we are relying on the translation which is often lost in translation. Without context and the background, the word 'Aramaic' is changed to Father in English very fast. That is what happened in Bible leaving out the context and the background. Jesus (PBUH) invoked the name of GOD in Aramaic 'ELLAH' which is similar to ALLAH in Arabic and it means ONE GOD ONLY, BEGETS NOT NOR BEGOTTEN AND THERE IS NONE LIKE UNTO ALLAH. In fact, Surah Ikhlas summed it simple and precisely to the definition of ALLAH aka ELLAH; A CREATOR.

Now imagine Bible in English without the context and the background and it says Father which implies Jesus (PBUH) as son of GOD which changes the whole game overall if we are to take verses of Bible into literal.

For starters you quoted how would we know about 5 times prayers? Spare sometime and see how many times and at what times Zoroastrians pray.

That doesn't change the lifestyle and ritual of Islam as we know today is derived from Authentic hadiths. Besides, Islam is not inspired by Zoroastrians. It is inspired by the Surah Al Isra which the recording of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)'s journey to heaven recorded in the Authentic hadiths which details the meeting with Prophet Moses (PBUH). And it was Prophet Moses (PBUH) that convinced Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to shorten the prayers from 50 to 5 times a day which then is approved by the Merciful GOD.

Even then, Merciful GOD promised to rewards 50 prayers for five times a day meaning if we pray five times a day, we will be rewarded 50 times of prayer a day. Beauty, right?

Read this thread and if you feel comfortable we can continue our discussion there. If you don't mind I am occupied right now but if you tag me in this other thread we can continue there

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/interpreting-the-holy-quran.491128/

Of course, i can understand. If you don't mind my advise, you are playing dangerously close to the edge by discounting the whole exercise of Islam backed by Authentic even though you are barely knowledgeable to begin with.

If you pray five times a day, that is because of Authentic hadiths which you call hearsay. Then there is Ramadan coming up which Muslims will be planning to fast for the whole month is thanks to Authentic Hadiths.

You are not going to find the information on procedure of prayers, ablution, Ramadan, rituals of Hajj and Umhra and many more on elsewhere, and certainly not on Holy Quran unless we analyze the numerical signs and orders by each Surahs. One member did that in the past. I haven't understood so i am not gonna go in detail.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

I like Egypt, fascinating history. But your argument is not accurate.

Atenism is considered monolatrism which is not same as monotheism.

As far as monotheism goes some say Zoroastrianism has its roots as early as 1700 BCE which predates Atenism.

Also Zoroastrianism is a full religion with many elements that were later used in the three major Abrahamic religions. One God, devil, heaven and hell, angels, free will.

Finally, ancient Egyptians were Hamitic, not Semitic.

Atenism is a quasi monotheistic my friend so still beat you Semitic is apart of the afro-astic languages.

Afroasiatic (Afro-Asiatic), also known as Afrasian and traditionally as Hamito-Semitic (Chamito-Semitic), is a large language family of several hundred related languages and dialects. It comprises about 300 or so living languages and dialects, according to the 2009 Ethnologue estimate.


Afroasiatic languages have 350+ million native speakers, the fourth largest number of any language family (after Indo-European, Sino-Tibetan, and Niger–Congo).[5] The phylum has six branches: Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, Egyptian, Osmotic and Semitic.


We win

 

[Manama]

I am giving the shorter version. In the longer version, it is complicated just as the politics and its intake on Middle East. Arab population will be decimated everywhere; from USA-Russia proxy wars to KSA-Iran sectarian wars, and then the chosen Army [internal political crisis]. Again, that is just theory reading on the on-going situation as we observe.

But Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did declare prophesy that in the last hour, Arabs would be minority. That is confirmed. So do the math.

Arabs will be a minority along with many others. It still doesn't say "the chosen army will slaughter all arabs" so yea, stop adding stuff into hadith that doesnt exist there.
your "theories" shouldn't be referred when referring a hadith.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Exactly, it used to have a "P", but now it doesn't "Aspadana" became "Esfahan". I have read some Persian nationalists literature where they said that it has been under-used due to the Tazis "trying to delete it", as they said. It is amazing that we do have other letters which no language probably has, but we don't have "P" "and "V" ! When speaking in English, the "P" is the hardest letter to pronounce. We don't have a problem with TH, but many learners do...

it not only had a p but also had a complete different name.

 

[帅的一匹]

It's time sell DF21 to Saudi, I don't like this threat to our Saudi friend.

 

[garshasp]

It's time sell DF21 to Saudi, I don't like this threat to our Saudi friend.

No problem! Sell them all the weapons you want let them waste their money. What good are weapons when they cant fight? When they have to bribe their pilots with Bentlys like spoiled children after they did simple bombings of civilians?

 

[帅的一匹]

China will not agree if Iran try to overthrow the current Al Saud regime.

No problem! Sell them all the weapons you want let them waste their money. What good are weapons when they cant fight? When they have to bribe their pilots with Bentlys like spoiled children after they did simple bombings of civilians?

We have similar stance on current Syria problem, but it doesn't mean we agree with your stance on KSA. Iran shall not try to build enemies from Multi- frontiers. Too many enemies do more harm than good.

 

[garshasp]

China will not agree if Iran try to overthrow the current Al Saud regime.

Cool story but sorry but China doesn't rule the world

We have similar stance on current Syria problem, but it doesn't mean we agree with your stance on KSA. Iran shall not try to build enemies from Multi- frontiers. Too many enemies do more harm than good.

Thats like Iran saying China shall not threaten Taiwan...why are you interfering with politics of countries halfway around the world from you?

What you dont understand is Wahabi extremism is harming every country in the Middle East...obviously you dont feel the effects all the way in China but if you did you would have a different opinion