How should Pakistanis view the Mughals?

[Great Janjua]

Dahir like Ranjit was son of soil.

 

[El Sidd]

It is what it is.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Punjab I would say it's complicated on one hand we historically celebrated fights against the Mughals ( folk Vaar ballods, my grandpa had a collection dk where they are now)

Historically, Punjabi hinterland had been inhabited by unruly tribes where tribes acted as independent entities, and there was no concept of a united Punjabi state or nation. For example, Khokhars allied with Jalaluddin Khwarzemshah (when he was fleeing the Mongol hordes led by Genghis Khan) and helped him establish his rule in Lahore, Punjab. After his death, Khokhars joined the Mongols in their conquest of India. Another example from the Mughal period is that of the Gujjars of Gujrat. They were at constant war with the Jats (Warraich) in the region. The Gujjars allied with Akbar and Akbar founded the existing town of Gujrat, and Gujjars garrisoned the fort standing in the midst of the Jat neighborhood

Read his personal works The Hasht Bihisht.

"Truth is not found in the Quran alone, nor in the words of the Prophet. It is found in the hearts of men, and in the world around us."

"Why should we follow the rituals of the past, when the world is constantly changing? We must create our own rituals that are relevant to our own time and place."

"The concept of sin is a human invention, designed to control and oppress us. We should not be afraid of our natural desires, but rather embrace them as part of our humanity."

Give me the original source or a book for the claims you have provided above in your post.


If you look at the personal work of Qadi Khan book "Muntakhab-al Lubab," Qadi Khan mentioned Pir Roshan as the leader of the Roshaniyya movement, which he viewed as a heretical sect that had deviated from mainstream Islam.

And there is no general consensus on the meeting between Mirza Hakim and Bayazid Ansari aka Pir Roshan many accounts say Mirza Hakim wanted him executed.

If You want to label Pir Roshan as Kafir just because he didn't follow the same exclusivist, literalistic, and extremely narrow interpretation of Islam as you do, then it's your choice. I disagree

 

[Maula Jatt]

Historically, Punjabi hinterland had been inhabited by unruly tribes where tribes acted as independent entities, and there was no concept of a united Punjabi state or nation. For example, Khokhars allied with Jalaluddin Khwarzemshah (when he was fleeing the Mongol hordes led by Genghis Khan) and helped him establish his rule in Lahore, Punjab. After his death, Khokhars joined the Mongols in their conquest of India. Another example from the Mughal period is that of the Gujjars of Gujrat. They were at constant war with the Jats (Warraich) in the region. The Gujjars allied with Akbar and Akbar founded the existing town of Gujrat, and Gujjars garrisoned the fort standing in the midst of the Jat neighborhood

Yeah it's quite fascinating, I was reading up on it and apparently my clan had their own king's, like on the internet there's a whole list dating back 100s of years on who was the clan leader at that particular time or that year
But Can't find it, should have saved it somewhere

It caught me by surprise as to how divided the region was back than along tribal, clan lines that dudes literally had their own leaders, for some of em we can go back and look who was the clan leader in 1450 for example - now you can't even begin to imagine a society like that as now everyone lives with each other, rely on each other

On topic
For Mughals my grandpa had strong words for em and showed some of the var ballods he knew, when I was a kid
Maybe that's what I am basing my judgement on? Who knows

 

[M. Sarmad]

Yeah it's quite fascinating, I was reading up on it and apparently my clan had their own king's, like on the internet there's a whole list dating back 100s of years on who was the clan leader at that particular time or that year
But Can't find it, should have saved it somewhere

It caught me by surprise as to how divided the region was back than along tribal, clan lines that dudes literally had their own leaders, for some of em we can go back and look who was the clan leader in 1450 for example - now you can't even begin to imagine a society like that as now everyone lives with each other, rely on each other

On topic
For Mughals my grandpa had strong words for em and showed some of the var ballods he knew, when I was a kid
Maybe that's what I am basing my judgement on? Who knows

Jan 1524:

"... A cunning Babur followed them and entered Lahore, where he not only slaughtered every deserting soldier, but entered every house, burning bazaars as they went along. Four whole days and nights were spent looting and killing, and, as was Mongol tradition, raping any woman they could lay their hands on, and after the act slitting their throats, because the woman had been ‘shamed’.

Once Lahore was emptied it was set on fire. The destruction was complete. From Lahore the Mughal invader moved to Dipalpur, where again the horror was repeated..."

Those who hail the Mughal invaders as some Islamic heroes are delusional

 

[Great Janjua]

It is what it is.

They were at constant war with the Jats (Warraich) in the region. The Gujjars allied with Akbar and Akbar founded the existing town of Gujrat, and Gujjars garrisoned the fort standing in the midst of the Jat neighborhood

Yeah it's quite fascinating, I was reading up on it and apparently my clan had their own king's, like on the internet there's a whole list dating back 100s of years on who was the clan leader at that particular time or that year
But Can't find it, should have saved it somewhere

It caught me by surprise as to how divided the region was back than along tribal, clan lines that dudes literally had their own leaders, for some of em we can go back and look who was the clan leader in 1450 for example - now you can't even begin to imagine a society like that as now everyone lives with each other, rely on each other

On topic
For Mughals my grandpa had strong words for em and showed some of the var ballods he knew, when I was a kid
Maybe that's what I am basing my judgement on? Who knows

Punjab was a tribal region in each district or region there were separate tribes who ruled under their own mini sultanate sometimes paying tribute to other higher rulers for example Mughals yet some even defied them the Gujjars he is talking about are my own forefathers I belong to the same district people mainly resisted due to heavy taxation by Mughals this was the case in Gujrat when Adam Topa and his Son Usman Topa openly revolted against Mughals but later on their descendants resisted against Sikhs.

 

[El Sidd]

Punjab was a tribal region in each district or region there were separate tribes who ruled under their own mini sultanate sometimes paying tribute to other higher rulers for example Mughals yet some even defied them the Gujjars he is talking about are my own forefathers I belong to the same district people mainly resisted due to heavy taxation by Mughals this was the case in Gujrat when Adam Topa and his Son Usman Topa openly revolted against Mughals but later on their descendants resisted against Sikhs.

Punjab is an administrative area whose inhabitants formed an identity based on the region's ability to provide for mercenaries.

 

[Great Janjua]

Punjab is an administrative area whose inhabitants formed an identity based on the region's ability to provide for mercenaries

completely false are you somehow completely turning a blind eye to how all the tribes are interlinked and the culture that has developed alongside the language and virsa which in itself is so unique and distinctive in the whole subcontinent that it's worthy of a whole civilization status and frankly is.

 

[El Sidd]

completely false are you somehow completely turning a blind eye to how all the tribes are interlinked and the culture that has developed alongside the language and virsa which in itself is so unique and distinctive in the whole subcontinent that's it's worthy of a whole civilization status and frankly is.

I don't think Punjab qualifies for civilisational rights. Sindh does despite Sindh boasting equal measure of princely states as well.

Unless one considers constant change to be a form of civilisation, Punjabs identity is more of the Rajs making than their own.

 

[Great Janjua]

I don't think Punjab qualifies for civilisational rights. Sindh does despite Sindh boasting equal measure of princely states as well.

Unless one considers constant change to be a form of civilisation, Punjabs identity is more of the Rajs making than their own.

that's your opinion it does not change the fact that the world considers Punjabis as a civilization with its distinctive traits Language, Culture, Virsa, Literature, and Social groups.

 

[El Sidd]

that's your opinion it does not change the fact that the world considers Punjabis as a civilization with its distinctive traits Language, Culture, Virsa, Literature, and Social groups.

We can happily agree to disagree but the world only got to know the Punjabi identity when the Raj required organised militiamen.

 

[Great Janjua]

We can happily agree to disagree but the world only got to know the Punjabi identity when the Raj required organised militiamen.

Punjabis were a martial people group unlike Sindhis.....

 

[M. Sarmad]

Punjab was a tribal region in each district or region there were separate tribes who ruled under their own mini sultanate sometimes paying tribute to other higher rulers for example Mughals yet some even defied them the Gujjars he is talking about are my own forefathers I belong to the same district people mainly resisted due to heavy taxation by Mughals this was the case in Gujrat when Adam Topa and his Son Usman Topa openly revolted against Mughals but later on their descendants resisted against Sikhs.

Gujjars have been living near the foothills of the Shivalik hills of outer Himalaya along the GT road (from Attock to Ambala) for centuries and were known for looting caravans traveling on that road. They seldom confronted the Turko-Mongol Armies marching along the famous invasion route from Kabul towards Delhi via Attock and Lahore. They adopted agriculture and a settled lifestyle during the Mughal period only with Gujrat as their base, and one Adam Gujjar as their chief. Twentieth-century British gazetteers mention that most of the Muslim Gujjars of northern Punjab claim that their ancestors came from Gujrat. As per the 1931 Census (the last caste-based census), Gujjars, exclusively Muslims, made up 15% of the entire population of the Gujrat district. No other district of Punjab had as much concentration of Gujjars as Gujrat.

 

[Great Janjua]

Gujjars have been living near the foothills of the Shivalik hills of outer Himalaya along the GT road (from Attock to Ambala) for centuries and were known for looting caravans traveling on that road. They seldom confronted the Turko-Mongol Armies marching along the famous invasion route from Kabul towards Delhi via Attock and Lahore. They adopted agriculture and a settled lifestyle during the Mughal period only with Gujrat as their base, and one Adam Gujjar as their chief. Twentieth-century British gazetteers mention that most of the Muslim Gujjars of northern Punjab claim that their ancestors came from Gujrat. As per the 1931 Census (the last caste-based census), Gujjars, exclusively Muslims almost, made up 15% of the entire population of the Gujrat district. No other district of Punjab had as much concentration of Gujjars as Gujrat.

outside of Punjab Gujjars make up the largest single ethnic group in AJK and Pahari side of J&K also Gujjars are the second largest group in Hazara division behind the Awans. Gujjars were the original rulers of Swat.

 

[M. Sarmad]

outside of Punjab Gujjars make up the largest single ethnic group in AJK and Pahari side of J&K also Gujjars are the second largest group in Hazara division behind the Awans. Gujjars were the original rulers of Swat.

Yes, they are the single largest ethnic group in AJK and the third largest ethnic group in Indian-Occupied Jammu and Kashmir. As per the 1931 census, Gujjars made up 5% of the total population of NWFP and were the third-largest ethnic group behind Awans (12%) and Pashtuns (37%). But the largest numbers of Gujjars were living in Punjab during British rule (followed by Rajasthan/Gujarat but those Gujjars are almost entirely Hindu). As per the censuses conducted by the Raj, Gujjars were living in 8 of the 13 provinces of British India

As for Swat, not only the original rulers, Abdul Wadud, a Gujjar, was appointed as the Chief by a jirga in 1917. The Walis of Swat chose to join Pakistan after 1947. Gujjars are mentioned in the national anthem of Afghanistan as well