How do Pakistanis and Indians Perceive Each Other?

[Novus ordu seclorum]

... Urdu tradition has an old saying, 'lakeer ka faqeer'. That is what ideologies produce.

 

[langda khan]

No, it seems that we’re the ones who have been educating you in the topic of hindutva, because you clearly still think it’s a land of immaculate green hills and hopping bunnies.

In your previous message, you said that the Hindutvadi ideology is one that is excellent for the community- and one that cares for everyone to the point that it would be a shame to be without it.

I agreed with the cultural hegemony, but said that I disagree with the creation of the supreme Hindu rashtra, and the turning of Muslims and other faiths into second class citizens.

You still haven’t replied to that point I made.

And it’s very narrow of you to think that our behaviour resembles the behaviour of the Muslim population within the country, as most of us are not even from India, nor are acclimatised to the same kind of cultural Input.

Furthermore, this assumption can be made to Hindutvadis however, due to their ruling power and class all following its teachings, as well as a rapidly growing part of their population. The Indian media is peddling Hindutvadi propaganda, and so Is Bollywood. That is why we can take the ideologies of Hindutvadis out of an anecdotal context, and within a genuine one, that isn’t even a microcosm anymore.

When you say cultural and then "hegemony" you betray an innate bias in that you presume that it is malevolent and forced. I am here to tell you that it is not forced but should be something that one is born into and grows up with. The feeling of one civilization. One history. One people. One land. One culture.

That shared cultural oneness is what Hindutva has always been all about. That we are all essentially one. It is an inclusive ideology where our religious Hindus are telling our non-Hindus that regardless of what faith they follow, which God they believe in and worship, whether that faith is intrinsically home soil grown or from soil elsewhere, we are all of this land and this civilization and share a common history and blood. That is a hugely strong bond and that is the plinth on which we created our nation. And it is diametrically opposite to the one on which your nation was created. Something which all Indians then and now are completely opposed to.

When your nation was created for Muslims, we did not force all Muslims to vacate our land and move to yours. But the basic expectation then is that they follow this ideology and not the one that we are forever opposed to and which was so fundamental a rift that the land and people had to be separated. That is the extent to which we want all Indians to own our history and culture and civilization. It is only fair. And it has nothing to do with Muslims per se. Tomorrow if some other group, even Hindu, were to act out and become exclusionist, they would get the same pushback that the Muslims are feeling today. Much the opposite of making them second class citizens, we are trying our best in all ways we can to pull them out of that mindset and own what is theirs by their birthright. Hope I have answered you now.

We reject fundamentally that Muslims are different to the rest of us in any way. And we want them to accept that rejection as well. Our Muslims. You can do and think what you want. It makes little difference to us now. As I said earlier, you are the example we want our Muslims not to be. Because they have us living with them and they should therefore be different. And they will be. Eventually.

Now put your hand on your heart and tell me that Pakistani mothers teach their children to be good honest people or they teach them to study hard so they make money .

A mother can do no wrong. Never ever. It is the purest form of love in the world and whatever she does is for her child. A mother will gladly and instantly choose death if it means her child can live. Being judged by God in the afterlife comes after that. Apologies for posting this here, but I have reached the limit of the posts I can make in a day and when I happened to read yours I had to respond. Somehow. Somewhere.

You essentially wish for a level of assimilation for the other faiths towards your ideology, without having a tolerance for the fact that some religions are built upon the basis of not being subdued.

The community spirit that Hindutva aims to implement directly clashes with the fact that Muslim communities build their own strong community spirit as well, and have done so since the founding of the religion.

You have stated that you wish for muslims and other religions to give up the barriers that essentially make them different from you. Don't you understand that many people define themselves by their religion, and it is incorporated into every action that they perform?

It is impossible for other religions to assimilate and kneel before the Hindu Rashtra, for the very simple reason that the Hindutva ideology relies on subduing other religions.

You are also acting like the Hindus have done no wrong to the muslims- open your eyes.
Take a look at the way that Muslims are treated, all over India. Take a look at the media pumped into the people, which makes them dislike muslims.

Have a good, long think, and then come back to me on whether the Hindutvadi ideology allows for tolerance of other religions.

And as for my description of cultural hegemony: the idea of hindutva relies upon the basis of one nation, one state and one blood. This ideology is overshadowed by the religion of Hinduism, so it is none other than cultural hegemony, no matter how hard you try to deny this.

I hear what you are saying and I am telling you that the time to decide what you want to follow and live as was in 1947, not 2022.

Sure Muslims have a community kinship concept. So do the Jews. So do other faiths. If a Jew wants to live where his faith and nationality are not at odds, he moves to Israel. Similarly, Muslims have many Muslim countries they can move to if they decide their Muslimness is paramount.

But India was created on a different principle. One that is in fact diametrically at odds with this concept of a religious identity being more powerful over the national one. Hence, India and Pakistan.

India accepted all her Muslims into her fold in spite of the fact that the land was divided by the consensus of that same community. But the ideological gates closed there. Once you make your bed, you have to sleep in it. A Hindu is not forcing his Hinduness on a Muslim. Where is the question of anyone kneeling in front of anyone? A Hindu will be the first to say that India first. So will any other non Hindu. Except Muslims. This is not acceptable in India. Not after a separate country was made for exactly such thinking. And not now 75 years on.

And this is a view shared by all Indians, regardless of their political ideologies. It might suit the Pakistani (or internal, in some quarters) narrative to put this squarely at the BJP and Sangh's doorstep as purely Hindutva villainy, but listen to what a dyed in the wool Congress stalwart has to say to a young Pakistani

Is he not educating that young lady saying exactly what I am while trying to educate you?

 

[omegared]

What do you think of Pakistani Hindus then?

I have nothing against them and treat them as I would do anyone else.
I fully believe they should have the same rights as any Pakistanis.
I have no issues with them. The are not infected by Hinduvita extremism and don't treat minorities and in particular,
Muslims like trash and less than second class citizens.

Muslims are openly persecuted by Hindus, in India.
The state machinery is used against them, the media is used against them and political parties use hatred of them to win votes.
We all know whats going on in India.

Jinnah was right to remove us from the Hindu Majority and make our own state.

I have read some of your posts,
Like the ones defending "Kul Bhushan Yadav",
And explaining why you use VPN ( asked by moderator on you profile)
We don't need to be in the ISI to know your
You are clearly an Indian.

I have nothing against Hindus at all and treat them with respect.
BUT I will never forgive those Hindus in India ( and abroad ) who supported the BJP/RSS/Hindu Rat Orgs
with their persecution and genocide of Indian Muslims.
I hope and pray we make you pay for this.
If I had my way, we would launch a two front, all out war on India.

 

[AlKardai]

When you say cultural and then "hegemony" you betray an innate bias in that you presume that it is malevolent and forced. I am here to tell you that it is not forced but should be something that one is born into and grows up with. The feeling of one civilization. One history. One people. One land. One culture.

That shared cultural oneness is what Hindutva has always been all about. That we are all essentially one. It is an inclusive ideology where our religious Hindus are telling our non-Hindus that regardless of what faith they follow, which God they believe in and worship, whether that faith is intrinsically home soil grown or from soil elsewhere, we are all of this land and this civilization and share a common history and blood. That is a hugely strong bond and that is the plinth on which we created our nation. And it is diametrically opposite to the one on which your nation was created. Something which all Indians then and now are completely opposed to.

When your nation was created for Muslims, we did not force all Muslims to vacate our land and move to yours. But the basic expectation then is that they follow this ideology and not the one that we are forever opposed to and which was so fundamental a rift that the land and people had to be separated. That is the extent to which we want all Indians to own our history and culture and civilization. It is only fair. And it has nothing to do with Muslims per se. Tomorrow if some other group, even Hindu, were to act out and become exclusionist, they would get the same pushback that the Muslims are feeling today. Much the opposite of making them second class citizens, we are trying our best in all ways we can to pull them out of that mindset and own what is theirs by their birthright. Hope I have answered you now.

We reject fundamentally that Muslims are different to the rest of us in any way. And we want them to accept that rejection as well. Our Muslims. You can do and think what you want. It makes little difference to us now. As I said earlier, you are the example we want our Muslims not to be. Because they have us living with them and they should therefore be different. And they will be. Eventually.



A mother can do no wrong. Never ever. It is the purest form of love in the world and whatever she does is for her child. A mother will gladly and instantly choose death if it means her child can live. Being judged by God in the afterlife comes after that. Apologies for posting this here, but I have reached the limit of the posts I can make in a day and when I happened to read yours I had to respond. Somehow. Somewhere.

You essentially wish for a level of assimilation for the other faiths towards your ideology, without having a tolerance for the fact that some religions are built upon the basis of not being subdued.

The community spirit that Hindutva aims to implement directly clashes with the fact that Muslim communities build their own strong community spirit as well, and have done so since the founding of the religion.

You have stated that you wish for muslims and other religions to give up the barriers that essentially make them different from you. Don't you understand that many people define themselves by their religion, and it is incorporated into every action that they perform?

It is impossible for other religions to assimilate and kneel before the Hindu Rashtra, for the very simple reason that the Hindutva ideology relies on subduing other religions.

You are also acting like the Hindus have done no wrong to the muslims- open your eyes.
Take a look at the way that Muslims are treated, all over India. Take a look at the media pumped into the people, which makes them dislike muslims.

Have a good, long think, and then come back to me on whether the Hindutvadi ideology allows for tolerance of other religions.

And as for my description of cultural hegemony: the idea of hindutva relies upon the basis of one nation, one state and one blood. This ideology is overshadowed by the religion of Hinduism, so it is none other than cultural hegemony, no matter how hard you try to deny this.

 

[Cheepek]