How good the Mig-29 UPG/SMT against the F-16 Blk 50/52+ ??

[Informant]

What?? What planes? are you talking of some clandestine secret ISI programs in the works? lets cut the BS here shall we? as I said, your F16's do not hold up any aces because we know all of them and + 1. PAF pilots or techs wouldnt have seen an IAF 29 striker or the MKI physically.

You do realise we know certain limitations of the Mig 29 platform, we have a lot of interaction with the Chinese and for good reason.

 

[Informant]

Chinese's Russian systems and our systems vary a lot. You cannot possibly learn about Indo Russian systems from the Chinese.

Vary they do indeed, but you dont need a full scale exact bird to deduce its technical limitation. And India has only recently been cozy with the US militarily, we have quite a lot of experience than you give us credit. We make do and have been since inception.

 

[illusion8]

Vary they do indeed, but you dont need a full scale exact bird to deduce its technical limitation.

A percentage variation is all that matters Bro, there's a lot of difference between flying a few sorties as a co pilot and evaluating a fighter jet for a long drawn out competition.

And India has only recently been cozy with the US militarily, we have quite a lot of experience than you give us credit. We make do and have been since inception.

But we end up evaluating, testing and buying their systems more than you possibly can.

 

[Basel]

Bro, we have more orders for US systems lined up than what you purchased in over 6 decades, suffice it to say that advanced F16's were offered to us - but it didn't go through for lack of life in that system. We will end up or already have ended up buying more US equipment than you in a couple of years. Israeli systems are highly influenced by US, we are one of their biggest buyers. Over the few years we will be buying billions of worth of US systems as well. You do not hold any surprises for us when it comes to any US platforms.

If you are saying about complete US systems then may be yes you may not have much surprises, but we have other western customize systems available through different means, your close ally Israel have sold system through other country to us, it was very hot news in UK some time back. This type of purchases have been made quite frequently and silently by our military establishment to make sure that India don't get complete superiority in conventional warfare and many purchases remain secret.

Feel free whatever you think and underestimate us in conventional warfare, its good for us.

But we end up evaluating, testing and buying their systems more than you possibly can.

You know you spend billions to get those and we can get them in time of need free from our friends, specially from KSA who is obsessed with nukes now due to Iran.

 

[illusion8]

If you are saying about complete US systems then may be yes you may not have much surprises, but we have other western customize systems available through different means, your close ally Israel have sold system through other country to us, it was very hot news in UK some time back.

Fake news, even if true its negligible and doesn't concern us.. we are in process working with Israel in some very complicated programs.

Let's not deviate from the thread here.

One fact that cannot be denied is we know a F16 top to bottom.

If you are saying about complete US systems then may be yes you may not have much surprises, but we have other western customize systems available through different means, your close ally Israel have sold system through other country to us, it was very hot news in UK some time back. This type of purchases have been made quite frequently and silently by our military establishment to make sure that India don't get complete superiority in conventional warfare and many purchases remain secret.

Feel free whatever you think and underestimate us in conventional warfare, its good for us.



You know you spend billions to get those and we can get them in time of need free from our friends, specially from KSA who is obsessed with nukes now due to Iran.

The billions are well spent both diplomatically, geopolitically and strategically - I am sure you are nascent enough to not understand that.

 

[MilSpec]

@ptldM3

meh...I never talked about vietnam war. We were talking about Fulcrums...none of which have you been able to produce a proof of.

Russian Fulcurum is a combat failure. It has proven its failure time and time again.

Russian 3rd gen jets were compareable to the American 3rd gen jets. It changed with the computer tech revolution in the US.

Lets wait until your fulcrum shoots down an F-16 or an F-15, only then we can have a reasonable debate on 'on paper' capabilities vs 'operational capabilities'.

Your tomcat claims are based on Iraqi 'claims'. They haven't been varified by Iran independently.

Even if there had been a few Tomcats shot down. They did destroy a large portion on the Iraqi AF. They were 3rd gen fighters, tactics and doctrines were different then. There was little ELINT input into the battlespace and BVR combat was in its infancy.

Fulcurum is a 4th gen air craft and an utter operational failure. Operators without alternatives should dump then in the sand for its unable to defend their air space against Vipers and Eagles.

@Aeronaut How many f16 kills on Mig29's?

 

[Basel]

our best bet is buy more "Chinese".

Our many Chinese system can carry western electronics and weapons, good example of it is our F-7s & F-22Ps.

 

[Malik Alashter]

لإقعسف

Sir we didn't have BVRs. Try sending the migs now, i'd be selling their pieces for 200 rupees a kilo at chacha ghulam bux's scrap shop.

It's all about politics I don't think there is any problem with the mig-29 it's all the politics that either tying up the hands of the pilots or free them now your gov might free the hands of their pilots against India but u can answer this do u think they also free their hands against the american? now the indian do the sae think when it comes fighting Pakistanis.

 

[trident2010]

Since it is now clear that Mig-29UPG is more than a match for PAF F-16s. The only hope for PAF is to acquire as much JF-17s as possible and hope few will survive to cause some damage.

 

[Basel]

Good for you...but what does that have to do with this thread bro?
H-2, H-4? what is that? some elaboration, if you don't mind. Are you meaning to say you can tackle IN's western naval armada with it?

Sorry for being off topic.

H-2 & H-4 are standoff bombs with range of 60 to 120 kms but H-4 is now evolved to hit moving targets and its range is also been increased, no buddy really know its still a bomb or missile now as PAF has MUPSOW too in its arsenal this tech comes from South Africa.

The South African Air Force

Since it is now clear that Mig-29UPG is more than a match for PAF F-16s. The only hope for PAF is to acquire as much JF-17s as possible and hope few will survive to cause some damage.

If only Mig-29s are used to escort strike package in case of a war (God Forbid) in future PAF & PA have combine enough resources to tackle that, although they may take some damage to their assets but with HQ-9 and other systems in place are used in conjunction we can defend our air space, but IAF will not use Mig-29s for escort they will be used for point defense and CAP in Indian air space, the MKI will be ones who will a launch standoff strike and escort to strike package which will be very difficult but not impossible to handle.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

@Basel H-4 = 130 KM..

 

[Jungibaaz]

Since it is now clear that Mig-29UPG is more than a match for PAF F-16s.

How you'd come to such a conclusion is beyond me.

Since it is clear? Please do explain, I'm keen to hear this, I too have read through this thread.

In terms of F-16 Block 52 (or MLU block 50/52 standard) vs Mig-29UPG, they each hold their advantage. But no defining edge in either case. If anything I am inclined to favour the F-16 and that too only very very slightly. And perhaps because I don't know the UPG half as well as I know the Block 52.

F-16's combat history does favour it HOWEVER.... as for PAF F-16's vs IAF Mig-29UPG. All the records lose much of their value. In this case, I can say with confidence, it could swing either way.

The biggest disadvantage for PAF's F-16's is the what the future may or may not hold for them. There's no hope for significant upgrades unless Uncle Sam is willing, and there is a chance we could yet again be starved of spares.

 

[trident2010]

In terms of F-16 Block 52 (or MLU block 50/52 standard) vs Mig-29UPG, they each hold their advantage. But no defining edge in either case. If anything I am inclined to favour the F-16 and that too only very very slightly. And perhaps because I don't know the UPG half as well as I know the Block 52.

F-16's combat history does favour it HOWEVER.... as for PAF F-16's vs IAF Mig-29UPG. All the records lose much of their value. In this case, I can say with confidence, it could swing either way.

The biggest disadvantage for PAF's F-16's is the what the future may or may not hold for them. There's no hope for significant upgrades unless Uncle Sam is willing, and there is a chance we could yet again be starved of spares.

You nicely covered the pros and cons for PAF F-16s. The biggest one is the dependence of the upgrades on US. Which we all know never allows PAF the same tech as they would allow to say Singapore AF or other allied AFs. Now you would acknowledge that for IAF Mig-29UPG the situation is reversed and they are getting top of the line upgrades available for their Mig-29s. May be even better than RuAF Mig-29s due to the combination of Israeli, French, Russian and Indian state of the art techs. Also, there will be no problem with future upgrades and spares. Therefore plane to plane, Mig-29UPG boasts better if not much better state of the art tech as compared to PAF F-16s. This doesn't mean they are far behind but yes slightly lacking in A2A role.

 

[Jungibaaz]

You nicely covered the pros and cons for PAF F-16s. The biggest one is the dependence of the upgrades on US. Which we all know never allows PAF the same tech as they would allow to say Singapore AF or other allied AFs. Now you would acknowledge that for IAF Mig-29UPG the situation is reversed and they are getting top of the line upgrades available for their Mig-29s. May be even better than RuAF Mig-29s due to the combination of Israeli, French, Russian and Indian state of the art techs. Also, there will be no problem with future upgrades and spares. Therefore plane to plane, Mig-29UPG boasts better if not much better state of the art tech as compared to PAF F-16s. This doesn't mean they are far behind but yes slightly lacking in A2A role.

True, greater potential, but here and now, the designations and type of aircraft we are discussing are the Block 52 and Mig-29UPG. And for now, there is no reason for anyone to claim the superiority of either platform.

And the threat possible sanctions and a wall for any further upgrades hold will be nullified as time progresses, meaning the ageing of the current F-16 fleet in terms of capability is proportional to the reduction of the role they will play for the PAF in the future.

PAF aren't fools to have a vulnerable front line fighter that isn't future proof, they have learnt their lesson from the 90's. And just in case politics does come in the way, we have now an insurance policy, going back to what you said, there is a silver lining should the future fare bad times for the F-16 fleet. What the F-16's are to PAF today and what they will be to us in the future will change as the JF-17 makes it's mark. My point being, the next 2-3 decades for PAF will be defined by the success of the JF-17 and not the fate of our F-16's.

 

[illusion8]

True, greater potential, but here and now, the designations and type of aircraft we are discussing are the Block 52 and Mig-29UPG. And for now, there is no reason for anyone to claim the superiority of either platform.

And the threat possible sanctions and a wall for any further upgrades hold will be nullified as time progresses, meaning the ageing of the current F-16 fleet in terms of capability is proportional to the reduction of the role they will play for the PAF in the future.

PAF aren't fools to have a vulnerable front line fighter that isn't future proof, they have learnt their lesson from the 90's. And just in case politics does come in the way, we have now an insurance policy, going back to what you said, there is a silver lining should the future fare bad times for the F-16 fleet. What the F-16's are to PAF today and what they will be to us in the future will change as the JF-17 makes it's mark. My point being, the next 2-3 decades for PAF will be defined by the success of the JF-17 and not the fate of our F-16's.

That's nice to hear,

Basically pointing towards a over dependence on Chinese platforms via the JF17's and in the future J10's or possibly the J11's. Would it be rude if some Indian member states that such a scenario (and possibly the only one) does not pose any stringent or worrisome concern for us(obviously given that we cannot do anything about it)?