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How good the Mig-29 UPG/SMT against the F-16 Blk 50/52+ ??

You do realise we know certain limitations of the Mig 29 platform, we have a lot of interaction with the Chinese and for good reason.

lol @the chinese junk copy cat series, when has a chinese junk gone one on one against a russian or american plane?

The sukhois, the migs, the teens, the boeings, the Lockheeds, the eurofighters, the rafales will run circles around the chinese junk series many times over, what they can do is kamikaze or something similar to a chinese human wave mission to down a counterpart's aircraft.
 
lol @the chinese junk copy cat series, when has a chinese junk gone one on one against a russian or american plane?

The sukhois, the migs, the teens, the boeings, the Lockheeds, the eurofighters, the rafales will run circles around the chinese junk series many times over, what they can do is kamikaze or something similar to a chinese human wave mission to down a counterpart's aircraft.

Tone it down bro. No need to get too carried away.

the next 2-3 decades for PAF will be defined by the success of the JF-17 and not the fate of our F-16's.

Yes, JF-17 along with J-10 is the best bet for PAF in the future.
 
That's nice to hear,

Basically pointing towards a over dependence on Chinese platforms via the JF17's and in the future J10's or possibly the J11's. Would it be rude if some Indian member states that such a scenario (and possibly the only one) does not pose any stringent or worrisome concern for us(obviously given that we cannot do anything about it)?

That's debatable. PAF can't go from over dependence on the Americans to self sufficiency.
Baby steps, we've got to learn how to walk before we run. The Chinese have a better history of not abandoning us anyway, we'd rather take my chances with them. Besides, they actually are offering us a great deal of self sufficiency with this JF-17, if they wanted to, they could have made 1,000 ways to screw us over just like or even worse than the Americans, but still, they haven't, they've been only too generous.
 
@ptldM3

meh...I never talked about vietnam war. We were talking about Fulcrums...none of which have you been able to produce a proof of.

Russian Fulcurum is a combat failure. It has proven its failure time and time again.


Know your history before calling the Mig-29 a failure. At least 2 out of 5 mig-29s that were "shot down" over desert storm crashed due to pilot error when they were engaged in dogfights due to pilot error. This just demonstrates how poor Iraqi pilots were trained. Furthermore, Mig-29s locked onto and fired at F-15s, the only thing that prevented the F-15s from getting shot down was the skillful F-15 pilots evading missiles. Iraqi Mig-29s also actually achieved 2 missile hits on 2 American aircraft but they managed to land safely.

so somehow this "failure" was able to lock onto NATO aircraft and score missile hits. I'm sure you have also read the reports of German Mig-29s humiliating F-16 with one F-16 taking 18 archers from a Mig-29 before it was able to score anything against the Mig-29.

If German Mig-29s toyed with F-16 then during desert storm the less maneuverable F-15s would have been no problem for well flown Mig-29s especially when many of the encounters were WVR where the Mig-29 had the advantage with it's helmet mounted sight and high bore archers. instead the Iraqi pilots panicked and crashed or 'bugged out' and were chased and shot down with the help of AWACs.


Russian 3rd gen jets were compareable to the American 3rd gen jets. It changed with the computer tech revolution in the US.


No it changed when Iraqi pilots lost control of their migs and crashed. It also changed when when NATO was being aided with AWACs. I can also say it changed when Serbian migs were forced to fight NATO with malfunctioning radars. I can also add that export migs lacked everything from radar warning receivers to data-links.

So now when facts are known it becomes obvious that the mig-29 has been unfairly labeled by people like you. It's not the migs fault when the pilot miss judges and crashes nor is it the migs fault that the radars were malfunctioning due to neglected maintenance.



Lets wait until your fulcrum shoots down an F-16 or an F-15, only then we can have a reasonable debate on 'on paper' capabilities vs 'operational capabilities'.


Let's put an Iraqi pilot in an F-15 with a malfunctioning radar and let's take several Mig-29s flown by German pilots and aided by AWACs and have those aircraft face off. let's also assume those are Russian Mig-29s and not watered down versions.



Your tomcat claims are based on Iraqi 'claims'. They haven't been varified by Iran independently.


Nice logic, going by your criteria half of the aircraft Pakistan claims to have shot down during the Pakistani Indian conflicts never happened. As for being verified, we know the names of some of the F-14 pilots that were shot down we also know that some of them are dead. usually when names are released and memorials are held it's an indication that, the aircraft in question really was shot down and Iran released the names of the pilots. This is facts, and not opened for debate.
 
True, greater potential, but here and now, the designations and type of aircraft we are discussing are the Block 52 and Mig-29UPG. And for now, there is no reason for anyone to claim the superiority of either platform.

See my earlier posts, there are plenty of reasons. Block 52 is just a term, just like Mig 29UPG, but that doesn't mean that all B52 and all UPGs are as capable, because it depends on the techs and capabilities the fighters have at the end. It is hardly deniable that PAF has limitations to get latest F16s techs or weapons, just like the Mig 29 UPG for IAF is most likely more comprehensive than even Russian UPGs. So don't fall on the pointless debate on combat history, or just on the certain terms and check the capabilities of PAFs F16s.
 
Hahaha. ... yeah .. they are old yet they are world most exported/successfulllll jets .. with several A2A kills... and they have no future? lol.. yeah because they didnt offer india key techs under ToT..!

Total BS. Technology transfer was a precondition. They are Good planes but not as good as Rafale and euro fighters hence not shortlisted. How ever good the planes may be, 4-5 dacade old plane can not be as good as some modern planes (Bar some copied planes).

All things are not publicized by any air force what they have purchased, IAF & PAF mostly bought customized versions of planes and they will not tell anyone what is in their plane acutally. Selling companies mostly advertise standard configuration so they can sell more and purchasing Air Forces mostly back their claim.

You again misunderstood my post. I am not talking about India and pakistan but third country like this.

Israeli Air Force Top Guns evaluate the MiG-29 and give their Report
 
Total BS. Technology transfer was a precondition. They are Good planes but not as good as Rafale and euro fighters hence not shortlisted. How ever good the planes may be, 4-5 dacade old plane can not be as good as some modern planes (Bar some copied planes).

Oh here comes the "expert"... does ur "highness" think tht F-16 of today is same is the one from the 80s? dodo.. ever heard of EVOLUTION ? Is a 2013 prado same as the one produced in 99?

As for Rafael n euro fighter... remember how PAF F-16s whooped Typhoons butt?

As for precondition... kiddo do some research... they didnt offer you complete ToT!! specially tech like AESA etc...
Another reason bcoz PAF guys know those jets like the back of their hand...


You again misunderstood my post. I am not talking about india and pakistan but third country like this.

Israeli Air Force Top Guns evaluate the MiG-29 and give their Report

Lol sure.. although i suggest you search abt the issues mig-29 faces... including its design flaws... no wonder no country likes it.. and others who bought tht hate it.. including russia the has grounded it several times.. not to forget the malaysians etc... so spare us this nonsense...
 
Oh here comes the "expert"... does ur "highness" think tht F-16 of today is same is the one from the 80s? dodo.. ever heard of EVOLUTION ? Is a 2013 prado same as the one produced in 99?
As for Rafael n euro fighter... remember how PAF F-16s whooped Typhoons butt?
As for precondition... kiddo do some research... they didnt offer you complete ToT!! specially tech like AESA etc...


Technology always evolve. If those new evolved technology incorporation on old planes are enough make them contemporary than why these F 35 and F22? keep developing F16. The fact remains is that you can change assembly and part but not design. Some EVOLUTION THEORY SPECIALIST find it difficult to understand. Why they Do not understand this Simple thing and expose his BS mind???? More than one answer stuck to my mind.
 
I can't explain or discuss every thing but what I know that Pakistan have many surprises for India if (god forbid) war break out. Pakistan have been working hard to silently get advance tech from all means. :azn:


Surprises that surprises the laws of physics?
 
Oh here comes the "expert"... does ur "highness" think tht F-16 of today is same is the one from the 80s? dodo.. ever heard of EVOLUTION ? Is a 2013 prado same as the one produced in 99?

As for Rafael n euro fighter... remember how PAF F-16s whooped Typhoons butt?

As for precondition... kiddo do some research... they didnt offer you complete ToT!! specially tech like AESA etc...


Lol sure.. although i suggest you search abt the issues mig-29 faces... including its design flaws... no wonder no country likes it.. and others who bought tht hate it.. including russia the has grounded it several times.. not to forget the malaysians etc... so spare us this nonsense...
Mig-21 shootdown F-15 in exercise & Su-30 MKI shoot down by F-16 in exercise means F-15 & Su-30 MKI are inferior.
In multi national exercise aircrafts does not use their Radars, datalinks & EW Suits. F-5 would circle around Typhoon if EF does not use their Radar, data link & ECCM suite.
So, do not take seriously to those aircraft shootdown exercises.
 
lol @the chinese junk copy cat series, when has a chinese junk gone one on one against a russian or american plane?

The sukhois, the migs, the teens, the boeings, the Lockheeds, the eurofighters, the rafales will run circles around the chinese junk series many times over, what they can do is kamikaze or something similar to a chinese human wave mission to down a counterpart's aircraft.

Are you 5? Chinese junk? Sure, keep saying that to yourself and sleep better at night, but the people at the decision making level in your armed forces are fortunately not as deluded as you. Why do you think all this arsenal build up is for? Chinese junk, or Chinese military prowess?

The Chinese have and do some of the best buildups with their military technology that has even the US keep a keen and watchful eye over them. The CIA reports are a very good cursor on the Chinese development. Underestimate them and you'll reap the rewards sooner than later.

A percentage variation is all that matters Bro, there's a lot of difference between flying a few sorties as a co pilot and evaluating a fighter jet for a long drawn out competition.

But we end up evaluating, testing and buying their systems more than you possibly can.

Ofcourse big budget means more fun toys and more options.
 
Every time that has happened, the combat was between highly trained NATO pilots with full AEWAC coverage and other recon and jamming assets, and poorly trained conscripts from dysfunctional militaries with no AEWACs or satellites or ELINT assets. On the other hand, when the fulcrums of the IAF met the vipers of PAF in war, the vipers wisely stayed away. On the few occasions that they got close, the vipers wisely turned tail, and the pilots were shaken to their bones.

That too is 'combat history', not my personal assessment. Here it is, from the mouth of your celebrated war hero:

On this occasion, I gather the Indian MiG-27s did cross the LOC briefly and the local NLI commander who was having the crap bombed out of him called in desparately for support- the PAF, which had been frustrated at having to sit it out till now, saw an opportunity to bloody the IAF nose as they were reported to have crossed the LOC. Two Falcons on alert were vectored into the MiGs, but received the jolt of their lives when an IAF MiG-29 locked onto BOTH of them. They tried to break lock- but the MiG persisted, and while I do agree they could have pressed home- there were some controlling factors:
1) strict orders not to cross the LOC
2) Hell, they thought they were about to get a salvo of R-27s up their noses...as an aside, one of the Falcon pilots was a greenhorn and was pretty shaken by this experience- got razzed to death for weeks afterwards.


The fulcrums ensured that the vipers would not dare to intercept our jags and mig-27s, who kept merrily pounding pak's ground forces, blowing up their supply lines and ammunition depots, and reclaiming one hill after the other. So you see, in capable hands, the fulcrums have ensured that the vipers didn't even present themselves for a fight.

Don't evaluate 'combat history' so superficially.

Thanks for Info
 
Doubtful, TVC adds to maneuverability, but mainly compared to conventional designs, but canard design had show high maneuverability comparable performance (see Rafale and EF engagements compared to F22 with TVC). I also doubt that the Mig 35 would have a good flight performance compared to the EF or even the Rafale, since it's not the light Mig of the past anymore. Making it multi role capable, adding more internal fuel, avionics and hardpoints made it much heavier, while the thrust increase was only limited. IF it would had been developed as planned, it would came around 12t empty with 2 x 50 to 52kN dry, while even the Rafale remains below 10t empty with similar dry thrust.
Much of the Mig 35 capability is still based on the myth of the past performance of the Mig 29s compared to older / conventional fighter designs and not compared to modern once. It might be the best Mig version wrt multi role performance, but still falls short in a comparison to modern fighters.

Does the Mig 29 K has total thrust of 18,000 kg or is it 16,600 KG which is total thrust generated by AF version?

As for Mig-35 18 ton thrust is not enough, I have heard it is 30% heavier that Mig 29.
 
The mig 29 had a HMS 20 years before the F-16 did. The R-73, when first inspected, was better then anything the west had and Mig was the first to have operational fighters with PESA.

Not to mention hundreds of US/European aircraft have been shutdown by Migs so what does that say? Especially when much of the time the Mig pilots were under trained and outnumbered. And sorry but PAF F-16 that are using 1980s and 1990s computers are not 20 years ahead of a modern Mig-29s just like my laptop probably has faster data processing then some older F-16s.

Right.

I one exercise German Migs (former east German) locked on US jets; after that USAF got HMS for their jets.
 
Does the Mig 29 K has total thrust of 18,000 kg or is it 16,600 KG which is total thrust generated by AF version?

As for Mig-35 18 ton thrust is not enough, I have heard it is 30% heavier that Mig 29.

K has 18000kgs of maximum afterburner thrust. It also has a super afterburner thrust of 20000kgs which it mainly uses while taking off from the ramp with an AG load. yes, the UPG has a 16600kgs of afterburner thrust and 17400kgs of super afterburner thrust.

Oh here comes the "expert"... does ur "highness" think tht F-16 of today is same is the one from the 80s? dodo.. ever heard of EVOLUTION ? Is a 2013 prado same as the one produced in 99?

As for Rafael n euro fighter... remember how PAF F-16s whooped Typhoons butt?

As for precondition... kiddo do some research... they didnt offer you complete ToT!! specially tech like AESA etc...
You still dont get it do you. The first phase was full and full technical parameters evaluation lasting for a little more than a WHOLE year. All this ToT will come only after the technical evaluation shortlist. Your precious F-16 not only failed to make the cut in technical evaluation, but the the IAF was flying the aircraft for more than 2 months! This is not some simple exercise where some pilots flying the plane for a few hours, but a well orchestrated techincal trials which puts the aircraft to its tests. Because of that, we virtually know the ins and outs of that mediocre fighter which till date hasn't fought a single battle against the MiG-29 without the aid of AWACS, JSTARS, Spy Satellites, Spy planes, Tomahawks missiles and outnumbering the opponent in a factor of 30:1, maybe even more.

Lol sure.. although i suggest you search abt the issues mig-29 faces... including its design flaws... no wonder no country likes it.. and others who bought tht hate it.. including russia the has grounded it several times.. not to forget the malaysians etc... so spare us this nonsense...
The Issues the MiG-29 faces were:
1# Early RD-33 engines, which has been long sorted out with RD-33 Series 2. UPG will have Series 3 engines
2# Unfriendly pilot interface which is being sorted out in the UPG upgrade.
3# Corrosion issues at the tail base because of Age, which is already taken care off and the planes are flying.

All nations ground their planes after a crash, not just the Russian and the Indian Airforce. Only PAF and the PLAAF dont publicize grounding their planes because they are not professional forces as they thrive on lies and propaganda they feed to their people about their superiority, and releasing such a negative info would burst the bubble of self-hyped superiority they have created around themselves. Very pathetic state of affairs to say the least.

U.S. grounds F-16 jets in Japan after crash - CBS News

Israel grounds warplanes after F16 crashes at sea| Reuters

Read what I posted you don't need to reply with pointless long post.

You just need to answer us the all awesome record of fulcrum no? you need to tell is why the awesome fulcrum is soon going to be retired by malaysia? you need to answer why algerian air force returned the marvellous piece of junk back to russia? you need to give us more answers why russians several times grounded their fulcrums and than come back point at Vipers. Crying at Viper's mission computer is pointless like i said it performs well belong expectations and I posted it twice you are ignoring the facts and you are deliberately avoiding to read it. I suggest stop your cheap shots F-16s currently are integrated with the best weapons/systems available.

Malaysian air force encountered problems in obtaining spares for its 14 MiG-29s, and that maintenance has been an issue for a long with russians couldn't provide new and or better spares and proper maintenance help. It effectively has become mig-21 of this era.

Kindly don't reply to me with your pointless posts if you can't prove that F-16s mission computer can't do things exactly list them specifically if you can't you are all baloney.
The procurement in the malaysian case were carried out by middlemen because they say MiG over charges for the spare parts because of the low number of spare parts they order, not bulk quantity(and the Upgraded SMT planes spare parts for the Algerians which was a fraud). So Malaysia approaches shady middlemen who promise a lowered cost but screw them in the end. And so you know, the Algerian deal middle men are now behind bars in Russia. Malaysia meanwhile still cannot afford the bulk order which the MiG demands since they have only a squadron of fulcrums and have decided to cannibalize parts from the other planes. IAF doesnt have this issue because they order in bulk since they have around 65 planes. Malaysia still cannot order the Su-30MKK spare parts in bulk from Russia but gets the required parts from HAL which is more than happy to give them their low required amount of spares since Su-30 is manufactured in-house in India, unlike the MiG-29 which was bought from Russia and we dont have ToT.

Russia convicts last suspect in MiG-29 fraud case - report | Russian Legal Information Agency (RAPSI).


The computers are indeed 25 year old dinosaur, live with that fact. It is satisfactory probably because the F-16 is a second line fighter while USAF's main fighter which will do most of the Air-Air engagements are the F-15s and the F-22s, and all other countries just get this upgrade because it is subsidized by the U.S as reward being good obedient little countries, or throw this 25 year old junk out and upgrade themselves(Israel etc).

All things are not publicized by any air force what they have purchased, IAF & PAF mostly bought customized versions of planes and they will not tell anyone what is in their plane acutally. Selling companies mostly advertise standard configuration so they can sell more and purchasing Air Forces mostly back their claim.



PAF have these and it can be fired from JHMCS and with this F-16s are now able to engage plane behind them. Primarily they are purchased for JF-17s but they are compatible with F-16s too and now Pakistan may start producing them and one western BVR missile more advance than any AMRAAM C series will be produced locally too.
180 degrees? Why not 360 degrees? lol This is only possible if the aircraft has rear-radar or rear irst and that too if the G rating within limits. And good luck trying to integrate the missile with the JHMCS. Firing the missile using its own seeker using the missile's boresight mode is a a piece of cake(PAF F-6 with AIM-9B or IAF MiG-21 with Magic as examples), but try integrating it with onboard avionics like JHMCS or the Radar without the knowledge of the manufacturer if you can. And I bet the U.S would love doing that for you after they withdraw in 2014... You'll be lucky if they dont sanction you!!

And before you get more delusional, that Darter missile are still under testing and not deployed.
 
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